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Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
Again rev, we don’t know. Like I said,rev kevin’s idea of fairness is not equal to divine justice.
God bless
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God bless
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rinnie
Guest
See our faith teaches different Rev Kev. We are taught that we are saved by Baptism, not by our faith. Baptism is Grace from God that we have never earned. Even if we had all of the faith in the world it would never be enough to earn the Salvation that CHrist gave us by his death on the cross.
So we do not have to have faith to be Baptised. That is why we can baptise infants. It is by Grace that we are granted Faith. And it is Baptism that we gain Grace. And without grace you can forget about fiath, its not possible. Faith comes from God’s Grace, not our own faith. We can do nothing on our own.
Now we are taught that Salvation is the same as being saved
You kinda got me on that statement. Can you explain it better to me. Thanks.We are taught that when we are Baptised we are wiped clean of all sin and have Salvation or are saved, its the same thing I thought.
But we are taught that after our baptism when can lose that Salvation that was granted by our Baptsim by actual sin that we commit. Thats when we get into original sin, mortal sin, venial sin and all of that.
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rinnie
Guest
In all fairness to Rev Kev, I have also been taught that in the CC. But what I was taught that when you are lost you are in sin, and when you are found you have confessed your sin and have been forgiven and are now back in the Grace of God (found).
So I could understand by Baptism you are found I guess. But the problem is we keep getting lost all the time. And the problem is we keep losing our Salvation by our works, And its not the good ones
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Nine_Two
Guest
Do you want to expand on that?
Everything I’ve read before and since ties it to the Calvinist idea of the elcet - if you are saved you are part of the elect, if you are part of the elect you are going to heaven.
Where has my research gone wrong?
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uglygal
Guest
what do we need to be “saved” from to begin with 
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TimothyH
Guest
All the non-denominational, Evangelical, Full Bible and Baptists I know define “saved” as being granted entry into Heaven. “Saved” is synonymous with salvation and it is always assured ahead of time, while here on earth, something which us guaranteed based on a one time act of faith.
This isn’t what the authors of scripture would have understood the term “Saved” to have meant.
The terms “Saved” and “Redeemed” came out of the common practices of how debtor’s prisons operated. When one couldn’t pay a debt he could be sued (contest with your opponent at the gate) and thrown in prison for it. This was done in part to humiliate the debtor and to add to the humiliation, he was not allowed to pay the debt himself to get out of prison. Someone else had to come and pay the debt for him, thereby purchasing the right to take the debtor out of prison. The purchasing of the right to take someone out of prison was known as redemption. This his how many slaves and servants were purchased. If a family could not afford to redeem a family member, I could offer to redeem the person in return for his service to me as a slave or servant for a negotiated period of time.
Now the redeemer, who had purchased the right to take someone out of prision, had to walk back to the prison cell and lead the debtor out. If the debtor didn’t recognize the redeemer or did not wish to go with them - maybe they were too stubborn or embarrassed - they could walk back to the prison cell at any time. But when they crossed the threshold of the prison entryway into daylight, they were “Saved”. This is the catholic view of salvation and why Paul could say,
So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work. (Phillipians 2:12-13)
Paul knew that he was redeemed but not yet saved, that he was following Jesus through the darkness of the prison of this life toward salvation at the threshold of death. He knew that Jesus would lead him by a difficult route and so he speaks often of perseverance and endurance. Paul also knew that it sas God who works in us, both to desire (fatith) and to work (works). This passage is the essence of the Catholic doctrine of salvation by grace through faith and the fullness of faith - faithfullness- which are works.
***I no longer call you slaves, because a slave does not know what his master is doing. I have called you friends, because I have told you everything I have heard from my Father. **(John 15:15)*Jesus even alludes to the idea of redemption vs salvation when he says he no longer calls us slaves but friends. But for the Evangelicals I know here in the deep south, the term “Saved” always means guaranteed and usually irrevocable entry into heaven with assurance given while alive here on earth. .
-Tim-
This isn’t what the authors of scripture would have understood the term “Saved” to have meant.
The terms “Saved” and “Redeemed” came out of the common practices of how debtor’s prisons operated. When one couldn’t pay a debt he could be sued (contest with your opponent at the gate) and thrown in prison for it. This was done in part to humiliate the debtor and to add to the humiliation, he was not allowed to pay the debt himself to get out of prison. Someone else had to come and pay the debt for him, thereby purchasing the right to take the debtor out of prison. The purchasing of the right to take someone out of prison was known as redemption. This his how many slaves and servants were purchased. If a family could not afford to redeem a family member, I could offer to redeem the person in return for his service to me as a slave or servant for a negotiated period of time.
Now the redeemer, who had purchased the right to take someone out of prision, had to walk back to the prison cell and lead the debtor out. If the debtor didn’t recognize the redeemer or did not wish to go with them - maybe they were too stubborn or embarrassed - they could walk back to the prison cell at any time. But when they crossed the threshold of the prison entryway into daylight, they were “Saved”. This is the catholic view of salvation and why Paul could say,
So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work. (Phillipians 2:12-13)
Paul knew that he was redeemed but not yet saved, that he was following Jesus through the darkness of the prison of this life toward salvation at the threshold of death. He knew that Jesus would lead him by a difficult route and so he speaks often of perseverance and endurance. Paul also knew that it sas God who works in us, both to desire (fatith) and to work (works). This passage is the essence of the Catholic doctrine of salvation by grace through faith and the fullness of faith - faithfullness- which are works.
***I no longer call you slaves, because a slave does not know what his master is doing. I have called you friends, because I have told you everything I have heard from my Father. **(John 15:15)*Jesus even alludes to the idea of redemption vs salvation when he says he no longer calls us slaves but friends. But for the Evangelicals I know here in the deep south, the term “Saved” always means guaranteed and usually irrevocable entry into heaven with assurance given while alive here on earth. .
-Tim-
po18guy
Well-known member
A life which questions its own meaning, is unsure of its origins and does not know its destiny.what do we need to be “saved” from to begin with
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RyanBlack
Guest
Actually, “salvation,” “saved,” and “Savior” all come from the same Greek verb σῴζω which, in addition to meaning “to save,” also means “to heal.”
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uglygal
Guest
i don’t understand how “a life which questions its own meaning, is unsure of its origins and does not know its destiny” is something we need to be saved from. Ultimately, what we need to be “saved” from is being sent to hell by god.
Orthodox Catholic teaching has always been and always remains, at least since St Augustine, that we need to be “saved” from God’s undying wrath against humanity, first kindled by Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. Otherwise known as original sin. I know that apologists will have a more eloquent way to explain this, but at the crux of the matter is the held ‘truth’ that humanity is inherently evil and as a consequence destined to hell. This is what all people need “saving” from by righteousness attained by Christ’s blood.
Being saved, as far as I know, has always been a lifelong process, which can be lost at any moment, and of which one is never sure of until after death. It is a lifelong labour.
There are other Christian groups (unsure of who they are) who believe being saved involves a single moment of declaring Christ as your saviour. IMHO, this seems a little too easy and with Jesus - things are never that easy.
I am not as familiar with Orthodox Christianity but I believe the Orthodox Churches do not accept Augustines views on original sin.
Orthodox Catholic teaching has always been and always remains, at least since St Augustine, that we need to be “saved” from God’s undying wrath against humanity, first kindled by Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. Otherwise known as original sin. I know that apologists will have a more eloquent way to explain this, but at the crux of the matter is the held ‘truth’ that humanity is inherently evil and as a consequence destined to hell. This is what all people need “saving” from by righteousness attained by Christ’s blood.
Being saved, as far as I know, has always been a lifelong process, which can be lost at any moment, and of which one is never sure of until after death. It is a lifelong labour.
There are other Christian groups (unsure of who they are) who believe being saved involves a single moment of declaring Christ as your saviour. IMHO, this seems a little too easy and with Jesus - things are never that easy.
I am not as familiar with Orthodox Christianity but I believe the Orthodox Churches do not accept Augustines views on original sin.
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tomarin
Guest
Quite eloquent.
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Contarini
Guest
In Catholic terminology, being saved is passing from a state of mortal sin to a state of grace. In all evangelical traditions, there’s the expectation that one will not bounce back and forth between the two states (as seems possible, though certainly not ideal, in Catholicism), as well as the belief that one can be confident that one is in a state of grace.
Southern Baptists (and many, but not all, other Protestants) further believe that once a person is regenerate (receives sanctifying grace) they can never fall away from a state of grace (this is often called “eternal security”). This further complicates the issue. So if you tell her “we are saved at baptism,” she will think you are saying that baptism guarantees your final salvation. If you tell her that we aren’t saved till we get to heaven, she will think that Catholics don’t have a relationship with Jesus on earth. If you tell her that that’s just not the way Catholics talk, she will think you aren’t a Christian at all
The concept of “being saved,” in other words, is so loaded and so complex (even as those who use it think that it’s very simple), that there’s really no short and snappy way to respond without misunderstanding. I think the best answer is to say, “we were saved by Jesus 2000 years ago; we receive his saving grace in baptism; and Jesus goes on transforming us as long as we let him, until he finally makes us one with him in heaven.” But if she’s prejudiced against Catholics or has a short attention span, she may not make it to the end of this sentence.
Whatever you say, it’s important to emphasize that:
- You know that Jesus saves us, we don’t save ourselves; and
- You love and trust in Jesus and are confident of his grace and love.
Edwin
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rev_kevin
Guest
Explain.
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rev_kevin
Guest
Well said.In Catholic terminology, being saved is passing from a state of mortal sin to a state of grace. In all evangelical traditions, there’s the expectation that one will not bounce back and forth between the two states (as seems possible, though certainly not ideal, in Catholicism), as well as the belief that one can be confident that one is in a state of grace.
Southern Baptists (and many, but not all, other Protestants) further believe that once a person is regenerate (receives sanctifying grace) they can never fall away from a state of grace (this is often called “eternal security”). This further complicates the issue. So if you tell her “we are saved at baptism,” she will think you are saying that baptism guarantees your final salvation. If you tell her that we aren’t saved till we get to heaven, she will think that Catholics don’t have a relationship with Jesus on earth. If you tell her that that’s just not the way Catholics talk, she will think you aren’t a Christian at all
The concept of “being saved,” in other words, is so loaded and so complex (even as those who use it think that it’s very simple), that there’s really no short and snappy way to respond without misunderstanding. I think the best answer is to say, “we were saved by Jesus 2000 years ago; we receive his saving grace in baptism; and Jesus goes on transforming us as long as we let him, until he finally makes us one with him in heaven.” But if she’s prejudiced against Catholics or has a short attention span, she may not make it to the end of this sentence.
Whatever you say, it’s important to emphasize that:
If you manage to get that across, and she’s not hopelessly prejudiced, she may conclude that you really are saved but just don’t know how to express it properly. In a best-case scenario, she may even begin to wonder if her categories are entirely adequate to the mystery of salvation. . . . but that’s being very hopeful
- You know that Jesus saves us, we don’t save ourselves; and
- You love and trust in Jesus and are confident of his grace and love.
Edwin
po18guy
Well-known member
It represents a state of unbelief, which of course, leads to a state of shocked belief, once that soul is seated in Christ’s judgment seat. Rather than “undying wrath” (which would result in man being eliminated, rather than saved, would it not?), God exists as love itself. It is His justice that we try to avoid, for we condemn ourselves by our action or inaction. He withheld His Hand of judgment in sending His Son for our redemption. That is not an undying wrath, but infinite love.
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elvisman
Guest
There is NO salvation outside the Church. This means that those outside the Church CAN be saved if they, through no fault of their own have not been exposed to the Truth.
**Since the Bible calls the Church the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12, Eph. 4:12), the fullness of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23), the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15) - and Christ himself (Acts. 9:4-5), it is easy to understand why the Church can claim nobody outside of it can be saved. **
Outside of the Church means outside of Christ. That’s what the Bible says.
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Carlan
Guest
No Rev’ just go pick up a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and read it.There will be no need to do any bashing up.
Peace, Carlan
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elvisman
Guest
There are FAR too many people - on this forum and elswhere - who confuse Salvation with Redemption.
Jesus redeemed EVERYBODY that ever lived and ever will live by his work on Calvary. Redemption means that we were ALL paid for - whether we want it or not…
**Salvation, on the other hand requires our cooperation with God’s grace of Redemption. **
**Bible is clear that we can accept or reject God’s grace: (Luke 8:13-14, 12:42-47, John 15:1-10, John 17:12, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:23-29, 2 Pet. 2:20-21) **
Simple faith or intellectiual ascent is not enough. James 2:19 tells us that even the demons believe and tremble so For all of those people who disagree with this - here is what the Bible says about REAL faith and being saved:
- Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21)
- Dying and being buried with him through Baptism (Rom. 6:1-11)
- We must suffer with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)
Jesus redeemed EVERYBODY that ever lived and ever will live by his work on Calvary. Redemption means that we were ALL paid for - whether we want it or not…
**Salvation, on the other hand requires our cooperation with God’s grace of Redemption. **
**Bible is clear that we can accept or reject God’s grace: (Luke 8:13-14, 12:42-47, John 15:1-10, John 17:12, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:23-29, 2 Pet. 2:20-21) **
Simple faith or intellectiual ascent is not enough. James 2:19 tells us that even the demons believe and tremble so For all of those people who disagree with this - here is what the Bible says about REAL faith and being saved:
- Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21)
- Dying and being buried with him through Baptism (Rom. 6:1-11)
- We must suffer with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)
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rev_kevin
Guest
Paul began preaching that Jesus was actually God, that Jesus’ death was linked to the Jewish system of sacrifice, that one could be saved by simply believing.
Can you supply verse and book please.
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rev_kevin
Guest
I have, thank you. That don’t mean I believe everything in it.No Rev’ just go pick up a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and read it.There will be no need to do any bashing up.
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adrift
Guest
God can save who He wills. He is not bound by any rules. He wills however, that the ordinary way is His Church for as you say that is what the Bible says. The question than is how do you become members of His Church? Anyone who is baptized is a member. Baptizm by water, by blood, and by desire makes one a member of Christ Church even if they are unaware that it does.
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