What is Moral truth and why are we bound by it? Why does God have the right to judge?

[ChainBreaker]

What is Moral truth and why are we bound by it?

Are we talking about preference? Might makes right? Are we talking about God?

If God is the source of moral law, then what does that mean? Is morality his preference? Does might make right? Why does God have the **right **to judge or condemn or condone?

 

[Della]

If an artist makes an object–a painting, a sculpture, a mosiac, etc. does he have the "right’ to determine how it will reflect his vision, his personality, his values?

God created all there is. When he did so he put into creation his values, who he is, etc. Since God is–outside time and space–and he cannot change–his values are eternal, not subjective.

We cannot know all about God–if we could we would be God. But we can know what we see in nature and what he has revealed about himself to us. He revealed himself through Israel when he chose Abraham and his descendants to be his special people who were to share with the world what God revealed about himself to them–and they were to be the people from whom the Messiah would come.

God revealed his justice first to Adam, then to Noah, then to Abraham, Jacob/Israel, Moses and the Prophets, and finally in Jesus Christ–God’s Word–his voice–to us. Jesus established his Church to bring his message to the world and to decide matters of faith and morals. The Church CANNOT teach anything other than the moral values Christ gave her because the Church is of Christ and can do nothing apart from him.

That’s why.

 

[Bahman]

What is Moral truth and why are we bound by it?

Truth is what we have to look for and it is tightened with morality since it makes distinction between right and wrong.

Are we talking about preference?

No, we are talking about what you and only you accepted as truth.

Might makes right? Are we talking about God?

No, God cannot possibly be experienced (I have an argument for that) hence we cannot talk in position of God.

If God is the source of moral law, then what does that mean?

We have to judge the truth, find the truth and practice morality based on what we have accepted as truth. There is not such a thing like word of God or moral law given by God.

Is morality his preference?

No, and we cannot know.

Does might make right? Why does God have the **right **to judge or condemn or condone?

We have to judge ourselves. It would very pity if we reach to a situation that we cannot defend our position and letting other judge us.

 

[ChainBreaker]

If an artist makes an object–a painting, a sculpture, a mosiac, etc. does he have the "right’ to determine how it will reflect his vision, his personality, his values?

For the sake of argument I don’t assume that “moral rights” have anything to do with it> An artist simply has the power to do so; might makes right.

God created all there is. When he did so he put into creation his values, who he is, etc. Since God is–outside time and space–and he cannot change–his values are eternal, not subjective.

This does not really tell me why a particular behavior is in truth wrong. It just means that God has values that he wants us to follow and has the power to punish us if we do not. The fact that his values cannot change just means they never change.

We cannot know all about God–if we could we would be God. But we can know what we see in nature and what he has revealed about himself to us. He revealed himself through Israel when he chose Abraham and his descendants to be his special people who were to share with the world what God revealed about himself to them–and they were to be the people from whom the Messiah would come.

God revealed his justice first to Adam, then to Noah, then to Abraham, Jacob/Israel, Moses and the Prophets, and finally in Jesus Christ–God’s Word–his voice–to us. Jesus established his Church to bring his message to the world and to decide matters of faith and morals. The Church CANNOT teach anything other than the moral values Christ gave her because the Church is of Christ and can do nothing apart from him.

That’s why.

This sounds like a hostage situation. We cannot do anything apart from the power of God, therefore we better do it or burn.

This is might makes right. This is not the same as moral truth. You follow God because he is more powerful than you. Why is it not simply an act cowardice to follow God?

 

[Bahman]

For the sake of argument I don’t assume that “moral rights” have anything to do with it> An artist simply has the power to do so; might makes right.

This does not really tell me why a particular behavior is in truth wrong. It just means that God has values that he wants us to follow and has the power to punish us if we do not. The fact that his values cannot change just means they never change.

This sounds like a hostage situation. We cannot do anything apart from the power of God, therefore we better do it or burn.

This is might makes right. This is not the same as moral truth. You follow God because he is more powerful than you. Why is it not simply an act cowardice to follow God?

Good answers.

 

[Della]

For the sake of argument I don’t assume that “moral rights” have anything to do with it> An artist simply has the power to do so; might makes right.

There has been much controversy within the art world over artists’ depictions/representations–such as crucifixes in pails of urine. If that doesn’t say anything about the moral values of the artist, I don’t know what does. Our moral values color everything we think, say or do. There’s no escaping it.

This does not really tell me why a particular behavior is in truth wrong. It just means that God has values that he wants us to follow and has the power to punish us if we do not. The fact that his values cannot change just means they never change.

Exactly. God created us, he gets to make the rules. This does not follow though that God’s rules are unfair/unjust merely because he made them.

This sounds like a hostage situation. We cannot do anything apart from the power of God, therefore we better do it or burn.

We can do anything and everything apart from the power of God, which is why we might burn, not because there are rules. Even among humans there are rules for which someone might burn–captial murder for instance. Rules/morals are not holding anyone hostage, they are the basis upon which we live in community with others, including God. No rules means I can do whatever I please to you and you cannot object since you could do that same to me. Is that what you want?

This is might makes right. This is not the same as moral truth. You follow God because he is more powerful than you. Why is it not simply an act cowardice to follow God?

No, it’s right makes right. How is it cowardly to act in the best interests of ourselves and others? What morals should we dump and why, if being moral is an act of cowardice?

 

[cena]

What is Moral truth and why are we bound by it?

Are we talking about preference? Might makes right? Are we talking about God?

If God is the source of moral law, then what does that mean? Is morality his preference? Does might make right? Why does God have the **right **to judge or condemn or condone?

There are moral absolutes that no one is an exception to. Things like lying, envy, etc. are not okay for anyone ever.
God is perfect so he can judge. He also knows everything why things are they are, what causes trouble, etc. Since sin offends him and he gave us rules to live by, I think we conclude that he prefers morality

 

[3DOCTORS]

If an artist makes an object–a painting, a sculpture, a mosiac, etc. does he have the "right’ to determine how it will reflect his vision, his personality, his values?

God created all there is. When he did so he put into creation his values, who he is, etc. Since God is–outside time and space–and he cannot change–his values are eternal, not subjective.

We cannot know all about God–if we could we would be God. But we can know what we see in nature and what he has revealed about himself to us. He revealed himself through Israel when he chose Abraham and his descendants to be his special people who were to share with the world what God revealed about himself to them–and they were to be the people from whom the Messiah would come.

God revealed his justice first to Adam, then to Noah, then to Abraham, Jacob/Israel, Moses and the Prophets, and finally in Jesus Christ–God’s Word–his voice–to us. Jesus established his Church to bring his message to the world and to decide matters of faith and morals. The Church CANNOT teach anything other than the moral values Christ gave her because the Church is of Christ and can do nothing apart from him.

That’s why.

^This, for starters.^

For the sake of argument I don’t assume that “moral rights” have anything to do with it> An artist simply has the power to do so; might makes right.

This does not really tell me why a particular behavior is in truth wrong. It just means that God has values that he wants us to follow and has the power to punish us if we do not. The fact that his values cannot change just means they never change.

This sounds like a hostage situation. We cannot do anything apart from the power of God, therefore we better do it or burn.

This is might makes right. This is not the same as moral truth. You follow God because he is more powerful than you. Why is it not simply an act cowardice to follow God?

It’s not because of one very essential truth, which can take a lifetime to grasp especially if we’ve had experiences that cloud our vision.

The truth is this: God is LOVE. Our mistrust of His motives, our attempts to judge Him and His Commandments by human standards and cry “unfair!” is the sign of a faith that is either still in its infancy, and/or has been distorted by our own experiences with human authority figures misusing their power against us. The good news is that we can grow, we can examine our lives and tease apart the real and good from the incomplete, the false, the distorted.

Our “fear” of God can go from abject terror coupled with resentment to awe and respect that is infused by that love and the realization that He loves us and is constantly calling us to deeper communion with Him, and that any sacrifices He asks of us, suffering we endure for His sake, He is not abandoning us to in a spirit of futility or out of cruelty or indifference. No, He is there - He refines us in fire to purify us and make us holy, and when we suffer, He mourns with us. He also dances with us when we experience joy.

Try to study and meditate on “God is Love” - Pope Benedict XVI wrote an entire encyclical with this title - try to build trust of God, and if any authority figures in your upbringing were harsh to you or arbitrary in their human sinfulness and weakness, pray for the grace to forgive them so that their failings will no longer cloud your own spiritual journey or impede your progress toward a strong relationship with our loving Heavenly Father.

 

[ChainBreaker]

There has been much controversy within the art world over artists’ depictions/representations–such as crucifixes in pails of urine. If that doesn’t say anything about the moral values of the artist, I don’t know what does. Our moral values color everything we think, say or do. There’s no escaping it.

The fact that artists express their values in their work does not determine whether or not their desire for art or the works themselves have any true objective moral significance.

Exactly. God created us, he gets to make the rules. This does not follow though that God’s rules are unfair/unjust merely because he made them.

Neither does it follow that burning people in hell is fair. I don’t see how one can go from “i created you” to “you’re are burning in hell if you don’t follow my rules” and not be considered a tyrant. If God creates hell then “might makes right” and God is in my opinion a tyrant. But if we create hell for ourselves then this is consistent with our freedom and God plays a passive role concerning our destinies.

We can do anything and everything apart from the power of God, which is why we might burn, not because there are rules.

I don’t believe we can do anything without Gods power. It is because of God’s power that you move.

Even among humans there are rules for which someone might burn–captial murder for instance. Rules/morals are not holding anyone hostage, they are the basis upon which we live in community with others, including God. No rules means I can do whatever I please to you and you cannot object since you could do that same to me. Is that what you want?

These are practical solutions in regards to comfort and survival. You have to kill or be killed. We have to have some degree of order to survive. The passing of laws needn’t have anything to do with moral beliefs.

God does not need to survive, he is eternal. Thus his reasons for passing judgment has nothing to do with practical needs. Thus the question arises as to why he judges and what gives him the right. If nothing in truth gives him the right, then his judgments are arbitrary or emotional in nature and we are being held hostage to that being.

No, it’s right makes right. How is it cowardly to act in the best interests of ourselves and others? What morals should we dump and why, if being moral is an act of cowardice?

If you follow a Moral Code because you know that the moral meaning of that code is objectively true, then you are not a coward; you are merely honoring the truth. But if you are following a moral code because somebody mightier than you is dictating and threatening you with eternal hellfire, then you are a serving a tyrant because of fear; you are not serving because you are in possession of moral truth.

 

[Bahman]

The fact that artists express their values in their work does not determine whether or not their desire for art or the works themselves have any true objective moral significance.

Neither does it follow that burning people in hell is fair. I don’t see how one can go from “i created you” to “you’re are burning in hell if you don’t follow my rules” and not be considered a tyrant. If God creates hell then “might makes right” and God is a tyrant. But if we create hell for ourselves then this is consistent with our freedom and God plays a passive role concerning our destinies.

I don’t believe we can do anything without Gods power. It is because of God’s power that you move.

These are practical solutions in regards to comfort and survival. You have to kill or be killed. We have to have some degree of order to survive. The passing of laws needn’t have anything to do with moral beliefs.

God does not need to survive, he is eternal. Thus his reasons for passing judgment has nothing to do with practical needs. Thus the question arises as to why he judges and what gives him the right. If nothing in truth gives him the right, then his judgments are arbitrary or emotional in nature and we are being held hostage to that being.

If you follow a Moral Code because you know that the moral meaning of that code is objectively true, then you are not a coward; you are merely honoring the truth. But if you are following a moral code because somebody mightier than you is dictating and threatening you with eternal hellfire, then you are a serving a tyrant because of fear; you are not serving because you are in possession of moral truth.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

If you follow a Moral Code because you know that the moral meaning of that code is objectively true, then you are not a coward; you are merely honoring the truth. But if you are following a moral code because somebody mightier than you is dictating and threatening you with eternal hellfire, then you are a serving a tyrant because of fear; you are not serving because you are in possession of moral truth.

Actually it sounds like YOU are afraid of going to Hell. When a person loves God, he or she WANTS to follow the moral code because it feels right to them. We honor the moral code because it seems true to us not because we fear eternal damnation. Getting out of the quagmire of a sinful life is ultimate freedom and peace, no matter what the afterlife holds.

None of us truly knows what lies behind our graves. It’s the quality of life now that changes so radically for a person who finds and and treasures God’s love.

 

[ChainBreaker]

Actually it sounds like YOU are afraid of going to Hell.

Who in their right minds wouldn’t be. But what i will not do is serve because of an insane threat posing as just. I don’t imagine that a God whose nature is love would want a relationship based on fear.

When a person loves God, he or she WANTS to follow the moral code because it feels right to them. We honor the moral code because it seems true to us not because we fear eternal damnation. Getting out of the quagmire of a sinful life is ultimate freedom and peace, no matter what the afterlife holds.

Good for you.

None of us truly knows what lies behind our graves. It’s the quality of life now that changes so radically for a person who finds and and treasures God’s love.

God wants me to love him or burn. Thats very immature, insecure, and suspiciously human if you ask me.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Who in their right minds wouldn’t be. But what i will not do is serve because of an insane threat posing as just. I don’t imagine that a God whose nature is love would want a relationship based on fear.

Good for you.

God wants me to love him or burn. Thats very immature, insecure, and suspiciously human if you ask me.

I think Hell is an allegory showing how you will be cut away from God’s love forever. It’s the isolation from God that is Hell.

The real punishment is of one’s own making: reject God, and be now and forever without his protection and mercy.

 

[Bradski]

There are moral absolutes that no one is an exception to. Things like lying, envy, etc. are not okay for anyone ever.

I don’t think that you’ve picked two good examples.

If a child dies horribly in a fire and the mother wants to know what happened, do you think the right thing to do would be to tell her the truth or tell her that her daughter died quickly and felt no pain? You’re going to have a very hard time convincing me, and I suspect most other people, that the brutal truth should be told.

Maybe you should say that lying to gain an unfair advantage in any particular situation is wrong (Did you steal the apple? Are you going to see that woman again?).

And envy? That’s an entirely natural human emotion. There is nothing wrong with it, just as there’s nothing wrong with a whole range of emotions. Saying that envy is wrong is like saying frustration or despair is wrong. It’s how we react to theses feeling that dictates whether something is wrong or not.

Look at homosexuality. The church says there’s nothing wrong with being homosexual but acting on it is wrong. Some people try to ‘cure’ those who are gay with the implication that what they are feeling is wrong. We all know where that can lead.

So to tell someone that they are sinning purely because of an entirely natural emotion, because of what they feel, is something of a worry.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I don’t think that you’ve picked two good examples.

If a child dies horribly in a fire and the mother wants to know what happened, do you think the right thing to do would be to tell her the truth or tell her that her daughter died quickly and felt no pain? You’re going to have a very hard time convincing me, and I suspect most other people, that the brutal truth should be told.

Maybe you should say that lying to gain an unfair advantage in any particular situation is wrong (Did you steal the apple? Are you going to see that woman again?).

And envy? That’s an entirely natural human emotion. There is nothing wrong with it, just as there’s nothing wrong with a whole range of emotions. Saying that envy is wrong is like saying frustration or despair is wrong. It’s how we react to theses feeling that dictates whether something is wrong or not.

Look at homosexuality. The church says there’s nothing wrong with being homosexual but acting on it is wrong. Some people try to ‘cure’ those who are gay with the implication that what they are feeling is wrong. We all know where that can lead.

So to tell someone that they are sinning purely because of an entirely natural emotion, because of what they feel, is something of a worry.

You know a lot of sins actually hurt the sinner more than the one sinned against. The seven deadly sins are an excellent example of this: Envy, Sloth, Gluttony, Anger, Greed, Lust and Pride. Each is a form of idolatry of self. Of course they are very human sins (or emotions as you would call them), but they can overwhelm a person to the degree that they cannot have a fulfilling life nor care about others.

Since we all have these potentials in us, it is to our best interests to try to not let any or all of them take over our lives. These sins can certainly hurt other people, but most of all, they injure us - the sinners.

 

[Della]

The fact that artists express their values in their work does not determine whether or not their desire for art or the works themselves have any true objective moral significance.

Oh, but it does. If you don’t want to acknowledge this, I can’t make you.

Neither does it follow that burning people in hell is fair. I don’t see how one can go from “i created you” to “you’re are burning in hell if you don’t follow my rules” and not be considered a tyrant. If God creates hell then “might makes right” and God is in my opinion a tyrant. But if we create hell for ourselves then this is consistent with our freedom and God plays a passive role concerning our destinies.

God doesn’t burn people in hell–they do it to themselves. Hell is the absence of God. Whether that burning is actual or metaphorical makes no difference, really because the pain is the same. People send themselves to hell by cutting themselves off the the only source of eternal love–God. We should fear the allurements of the world, the flesh and the devil which take us away from loving God and others. If we only care for ourselves we will spend eternity alone, regretting how we rejected love for selfishness. Think of Marley in A Christmas Carol. What did he say? He said he forged the chain that bound him–not the God did that to him. He had choices to make and he chose to hurt people for personal gain.

I don’t believe we can do anything without Gods power. It is because of God’s power that you move.

You are free to believe whatever you want, but since we have free will (you couldn’t believe anything contrary to God’s law without free will), it doesn’t matter what you want to believe–the truth is we are free to do what we want. We are free agents who can either do God’s will (which is to align our hearts, minds, wills and actions to his in love) or we can reject his love for eternity. The choice is ours to make.

No one goes to hell who has not deliberately, with full knowledge and of his own free will chosen to reject God’s love. People won’t be surprised to find themselves there. They will have chosen it.

These are practical solutions in regards to comfort and survival. You have to kill or be killed. We have to have some degree of order to survive. The passing of laws needn’t have anything to do with moral beliefs.

You must know that this is an evasion of the truth. Morals and rules have a lot in common–they are for the best interests of ourselves and others.

God does not need to survive, he is eternal. Thus his reasons for passing judgment has nothing to do with practical needs.

Indeed. He doesn’t need us at all. So why did he bother to send Jesus to save us? Out of love and no other reason since he had no other reason to do so.

Thus the question arises as to why he judges and what gives him the right.

He judges because he is justice. Justice isn’t a concept–it’s a Person. He is also mercy and love. He is always willing to exercise mercy and love over justice if we are willing to accept it.

If nothing in truth gives him the right, then his judgments are arbitrary or emotional in nature and we are being held hostage to that being.

He is truth. There is nothing arbitary about his judgments–they are honest and true. It is we who judge falsely from self interest. God made us, it follows that he can do whatever he wants with us. That he chooses to love us is the real wonder here, not that he expects us to cooperate with his love.

If you follow a Moral Code because you know that the moral meaning of that code is objectively true, then you are not a coward; you are merely honoring the truth. But if you are following a moral code because somebody mightier than you is dictating and threatening you with eternal hellfire, then you are a serving a tyrant because of fear; you are not serving because you are in possession of moral truth.

We do follow the moral code God gave us–because it is true. To deny truth is absurb and self-defeating. Again, we choose hell when we reject God’s love for in the end love is the standard by which we will be judged. Look at the examples Jesus gave us of judgment. Who comes out badly? The servant who wouldn’t forgive a felllow servant who owed him a debt even though the first servant had been forgiven a must greater debt. The man who thinks he’s better than the Publican. Those refused to care for the sick, the needy, the helpless. Nowhere does God punish anyone for doing the right thing or going out of their way to care for others. Nowhere. How is that arbitary and a burden? It just plain isn’t.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Oh, but it does. If you don’t want to acknowledge this, I can’t make you.

God doesn’t burn people in hell–they do it to themselves. Hell is the absence of God. Whether that burning is actual or metaphorical makes no difference, really because the pain is the same. People send themselves to hell by cutting themselves off the the only source of eternal love–God. We should fear the allurements of the world, the flesh and the devil which take us away from loving God and others. If we only care for ourselves we will spend eternity alone, regretting how we rejected love for selfishness. Think of Marley in A Christmas Carol. What did he say? He said he forged the chain that bound him–not the God did that to him. He had choices to make and he chose to hurt people for personal gain.

You are free to believe whatever you want, but since we have free will (you couldn’t believe anything contrary to God’s law without free will), it doesn’t matter what you want to believe–the truth is we are free to do what we want. We are free agents who can either do God’s will (which is to align our hearts, minds, wills and actions to his in love) or we can reject his love for eternity. The choice is ours to make.

No one goes to hell who has not deliberately, with full knowledge and of his own free will chosen to reject God’s love. People won’t be surprised to find themselves there. They will have chosen it.

You must know that this is an evasion of the truth. Morals and rules have a lot in common–they are for the best interests of ourselves and others.

Indeed. He doesn’t need us at all. So why did he bother to send Jesus to save us? Out of love and no other reason since he had no other reason to do so.

He judges because he is justice. Justice isn’t a concept–it’s a Person. He is also mercy and love. He is always willing to exercise mercy and love over justice if we are willing to accept it.

He is truth. There is nothing arbitary about his judgments–they are honest and true. It is we who judge falsely from self interest. God made us, it follows that he can do whatever he wants with us. That he chooses to love us is the real wonder here, not that he expects us to cooperate with his love.

We do follow the moral code God gave us–because it is true. To deny truth is absurb and self-defeating. Again, we choose hell when we reject God’s love for in the end love is the standard by which we will be judged. Look at the examples Jesus gave us of judgment. Who comes out badly? The servant who wouldn’t forgive a felllow servant who owed him a debt even though the first servant had been forgiven a must greater debt. The man who thinks he’s better than the Publican. Those refused to care for the sick, the needy, the helpless. Nowhere does God punish anyone for doing the right thing or going out of their way to care for others. Nowhere. How is that arbitary and a burden? It just plain isn’t.

:thumbsup:Nice job.

 

[Bradski]

You know a lot of sins actually hurt the sinner more than the one sinned against. The seven deadly sins are an excellent example of this: Envy, Sloth, Gluttony, Anger, Greed, Lust and Pride. Each is a form of idolatry of self.

I wouldn’t agree that at least three of those are sins. Envy, anger and pride are natural emotions. it is impossible not to feel them. Acting on them is another matter.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I wouldn’t agree that at least three of those are sins. Envy, anger and pride are natural emotions. it is impossible not to feel them. Acting on them is another matter.

It’s probably impossible to not to feel any of these. Some people are more inclined to some than others, but they are all human failings. However, when we let them get out of control and consume us is when they become very damaging.

By the way, their counter parts are the seven heavenly virtues:

Lust (excessive sexual appetites) Chastity (purity)
Gluttony (over-indulgence) Temperance (self-restraint)
Greed (avarice) Charity (giving)
Sloth (laziness/idleness) Diligence (zeal/integrity/Labor)
Wrath (anger) Forgiveness (composure)
Envy (jealousy) Kindness (admiration)
Pride (vanity) Humility (humbleness)

The virtues are what we should try to replace the sins with.

 

[cena]

I don’t think that you’ve picked two good examples.

If a child dies horribly in a fire and the mother wants to know what happened, do you think the right thing to do would be to tell her the truth or tell her that her daughter died quickly and felt no pain? You’re going to have a very hard time convincing me, and I suspect most other people, that the brutal truth should be told.

Maybe you should say that lying to gain an unfair advantage in any particular situation is wrong (Did you steal the apple? Are you going to see that woman again?).

And envy? That’s an entirely natural human emotion. There is nothing wrong with it, just as there’s nothing wrong with a whole range of emotions. Saying that envy is wrong is like saying frustration or despair is wrong. It’s how we react to theses feeling that dictates whether something is wrong or not.

Look at homosexuality. The church says there’s nothing wrong with being homosexual but acting on it is wrong. Some people try to ‘cure’ those who are gay with the implication that what they are feeling is wrong. We all know where that can lead.

So to tell someone that they are sinning purely because of an entirely natural emotion, because of what they feel, is something of a worry.

You can’t directly lie. You can change the subject, say something that’s ambiguous(has two meanings), but you can’t say something that you know it is not true. You can also tell her nicely (like she is no longer in pain, which is technically true) and still be telling the truth, without saying every little detail.

To be truthful you don’t have to say every single detail (unless it’s necessary), you just have to say something that is technically true.

To directly lie is wrong. Always.

Envy according to the church is sadness at another’s good fortune. It could turn into wishing that person did not have whatever it is they want.If you consent that is a sin, no consent no sin. Mere emotions with no consent are not sins.