What is Moral truth and why are we bound by it? Why does God have the right to judge?

[ChainBreaker]

Oh, but it does. If you don’t want to acknowledge this, I can’t make you.

This is an assertion which has no real value in terms of my obtaining truth and understanding. You need to decide what is more important to you.

God doesn’t burn people in hell–they do it to themselves.

How?

Hell is the absence of God.

What does that mean?

Whether that burning is actual or metaphorical makes no difference,

It does make a difference. It is not necessary for God to burn anyone for their sins. This is a malicious reaction born of hatred toward somebody; its an emotional judgment unfitting for a perfect God. If Gods nature is love then he has no choice but to love you what ever choice you make in life; it does not change. It does not matter if you are a human being or the devil himself. Eternal Hellfire makes no rational sense.

I can however accept the idea that God’s love can be rejected eternally, but that has to be the choice of the person alone and can never be the choice of an eternally loving God.

the pain is the same.

No it is not.

People send themselves to hell by cutting themselves off the the only source of eternal love–God. We should fear the allurements of the world, the flesh and the devil which take us away from loving God and others. If we only care for ourselves we will spend eternity alone, regretting how we rejected love for selfishness. Think of Marley in A Christmas Carol. What did he say? He said he forged the chain that bound him–not the God did that to him. He had choices to make and he chose to hurt people for personal gain.

I don’t choose to hurt people for personal gain, but apparently you can go to hell for rejecting peoples religious beliefs. I have no patience for a God who supposedly warns a particular individual of the possibility of hell and then fashions our destinies based upon whether or not we accept on faith the words of that individual.

That is insanity. This does not seem like the actions of a God that wants me to know him. It sounds like a God that likes playing games with peoples minds.

You are free to believe whatever you want, but since we have free will (you couldn’t believe anything contrary to God’s law without free will), it doesn’t matter what you want to believe–the truth is we are free to do what we want. We are free agents who can either do God’s will (which is to align our hearts, minds, wills and actions to his in love) or we can reject his love for eternity. The choice is ours to make.

I never said that we do not have freewill. I said we can do nothing without God’s power.

No one goes to hell who has not deliberately, with full knowledge and of his own free will chosen to reject God’s love. People won’t be surprised to find themselves there. They will have chosen it.

Why does rejecting God’s love mean that they must suffer for all eternity? They did not ask for existence. Surely God bares some responsibility.

You must know that this is an evasion of the truth. Morals and rules have a lot in common–they are for the best interests of ourselves and others.

You presume to know my motives. Human laws and religious laws have a lot in common, but they are not the same thing and they do not deal with the same set of problems even though they appear to.

Indeed. He doesn’t need us at all. So why did he bother to send Jesus to save us? Out of love and no other reason since he had no other reason to do so.

If his intentions is to save everyone, then i don’t know why God created hell.

He judges because he is justice. Justice isn’t a concept–it’s a Person. He is also mercy and love. He is always willing to exercise mercy and love over justice if we are willing to accept it.

I don’t know what Justice is in respect of God. The only rational basis for justice in human society is to prevent uncivil behavior. It is their to encourage civil behavior and protect honest hard working people from tyranny. Hellfire on the other hand is something else. It is more like vengeance which is to me a sign of weakness rather than justice.

God made us, it follows that he can do whatever he wants with us.

So according to you might makes right.

That he chooses to love us is the real wonder here, not that he expects us to cooperate with his love.

God does not choose his nature.

We do follow the moral code God gave us–because it is true. To deny truth is absurb and self-defeating. Again, we choose hell when we reject God’s love for in the end love is the standard by which we will be judged. Look at the examples Jesus gave us of judgment. Who comes out badly? The servant who wouldn’t forgive a felllow servant who owed him a debt even though the first servant had been forgiven a must greater debt. The man who thinks he’s better than the Publican. Those refused to care for the sick, the needy, the helpless. Nowhere does God punish anyone for doing the right thing or going out of their way to care for others. Nowhere. How is that arbitary and a burden? It just plain isn’t.

I don’t reject hell. I reject a God that desires to eternally torture or punish in vengeance. That is not love; it is hatred. God either wants everyone or he does not. If God does not want everyone then his nature is not love. If God does want everyone, then it is always possible to be saved from hell. There is no time limit, for God never closes the door.

 

[cena]

Who in their right minds wouldn’t be. But what i will not do is serve because of an insane threat posing as just. I don’t imagine that a God whose nature is love would want a relationship based on fear.

Good for you.

God wants me to love him or burn. Thats very immature, insecure, and suspiciously human if you ask me.

I know of people who have done horrible things but they are so repentant and so ready to make amends that anyone would forgive them.

I also know of people who ridicule and mock God. Their Creator who literally put them into existence, who decides to keep them existence. We can literally repent any time before we die. There was a saint that said if she had committed all the sins in the world she would not worry because she trusted the mercy of God so much. We don’t even have to be sorry for offending God, the source of truth, love, goodness. We just need to regret doing something because we don’t want to go to hell.
These peopleWho place so many things before Him. Who end up making decisions that really hurt other people for their own selfishness. I have seen obstinancy in sin and there is no doubt in my mind some people would stay obstinate in it until the point of death.

 

[Della]

This is an assertion which has no real value in terms of my obtaining truth and understanding. You need to decide what is more important to you.

You in the generic sense of the word? Indeed, we do need to decide what is most important to us.

How?

I explained this–please re-read.

What does that mean?

Being without God in eternity is hell–that is the main pain of hell, for it means being without love, peace, joy, beauty, truth, etc.

It does make a difference. It is not necessary for God to burn anyone for their sins. This is a malicious reaction born of hatred toward somebody; its an emotional judgment unfitting for a perfect God. If Gods nature is love then he has no choice but to love you what ever choice you make in life; it does not change. It does not matter if you are a human being or the devil himself. Eternal Hellfire makes no rational sense.

Here is the crux of the matter for you, I think. You are hung up on hellfire. What is hellfire? Theologians have come to no firm conclusions about that. Some speculate that is it regret or that it is an actual fire, or that it means that the brightness of God is too great for such souls to bear, but I rather doubt the last is the case. Certainly God loves us–but, and this is the important point–we can choose not to love him. He will not force us to love him, and without love we cannot enter heaven. How would it be heaven for a person who hates God to have to be in his presence? I think too that you are assuming that God pops people into hell on some kind of whim. What you are really saying is that God is unfair in his judgments. But, you forget that God knows each of us far better than we do ourselves. He will tell us just what we really thought, said, did, and our intentions, and we will have to agree that he is right–because he is right and knows us completely. Those who go to hell agree that that is where they belong. No one goes to hell crying that he was treated unfairly. The judgment means facing the absolute truth about ourselves. Hell is eternal merely because it exists outside time and space, as we know it. When time ends there will be only eternity. Some have described it as the eternal now–that is it always right now with no change in the future because there is no future. We owe God an eternal debt for our sins because he is eternal. Jesus offered himself for that eternal debt. If we offer it with him we have nothing to fear.

I can however accept the idea that God’s love can be rejected eternally, but that has to be the choice of the person alone and can never be the choice of an eternally loving God.

It is an awesome, in the old-fashioned sense of the word. It is scary that God gave us free will to accept or reject him. The responsibility for our souls rests with us–God doesn’t force himself upon us. You are thinking that hell is a positive in the sense that it exists, but it’s really a negative in that it is the absense of God–his loving presence. If we chose to reject him in this life, he will not make us accept him in the next. Although, he does come to each soul upon death to give them that opportunity. No one goes to hell who didn’t chose it for himself.

No it is not.

You cannot say this because you cannot know it by your own experience. But those in hell know it’s true.

continued next post…

 

[Della]

I don’t choose to hurt people for personal gain, but apparently you can go to hell for rejecting peoples religious beliefs. I have no patience for a God who supposedly warns a particular individual of the possibility of hell and then fashions our destinies based upon whether or not we accept on faith the words of that individual.

That is insanity. This does not seem like the actions of a God that wants me to know him. It sounds like a God that likes playing games with peoples minds.

What person’s personal beliefs do you mean and how do you mean it? What individual? You may have your theology mixed up here–not surprising since this is evident in everything you’re written. But, please elaborate.

I never said that we do not have freewill. I said we can do nothing without God’s power.

Apparently you are unaware that you have contradicted yourself in one sentence.

Why does rejecting God’s love mean that they must suffer for all eternity? They did not ask for existence. Surely God bares some responsibility.

God gave us the greatest gift of all–life. And we should “blame” him for it? God will not take back life because we choose, of our own free wills, to reject his love. If we don’t want to live in love, we don’t want to live in God. Love is the standard by which we will be judged, as I have written before.

You presume to know my motives. Human laws and religious laws have a lot in common, but they are not the same thing and they do not deal with the same set of problems even though they appear to.

I don’t recall presuming to know your motives. And I never said human and religious laws are the same thing–I only stated that they both deal with morality, to one degree or another, something you appeared to reject.

If his intentions is to save everyone, then i don’t know why God created hell.

Hell was originally intended for the devil and the angels that rebelled. It existed long before man was created. It is the place/state of being for all sentient, free will creatures who do not want to live with God in eternity.

I don’t know what Justice is in respect of God. The only rational basis for justice in human society is to prevent uncivil behavior. It is their to encourage civil behavior and protect honest hard working people from tyranny. Hellfire on the other hand is something else. It is more like vengeance which is to me a sign of weakness rather than justice.

You are thinking of hell in punitive terms. It’s more than that–it’s what I described in my last response in this post.

So according to you might makes right.

No. That’s your idea, which I have already refuted. Please re-read my other posts.

God does not choose his nature.

No. So what does that mean? It means he simply is who he is. We cannot fully grasp this because we change over time. But God just is. He doesn’t change. He doesn’t add knowledge or age or discernment or anything else to who and what he is because he is what is has always been and always will be.

I don’t reject hell. I reject a God that desires to eternally torture or punish in vengeance. That is not love; it is hatred. God either wants everyone or he does not. If God does not want everyone then his nature is not love. If God does want everyone, then it is always possible to be saved from hell. There is no time limit, for God never closes the door.

And so would I if that was a fair description of God. Again you are thinking of hell as existing in time. Once we pass out of time the choices we made will over. We cannot choose to do anything more or less. If we go to purgatory we will undergo further cleansing and payment for venial sins we never repented of, and the temporal damage our sins did. But we cannot undo our lives nor pretend we weren’t who we were–that we didn’t do the things we did, we said, we intended to to.

 

[ready]

Why does God have the **right **to judge or condemn or condone?

God is Lord over all creation, which He created out of nothing, He has every right to judge, condemn, and condone every bit of His creation. All true rights are God-given, and God has every right to rule and govern His creation, for He is the Lord God. God bless you.

 

[ChainBreaker]

God is Lord over all creation, which He created out of nothing, He has every right to judge, condemn, and condone every bit of His creation. All true rights are God-given, and God has every right to rule and govern His creation, for He is the Lord God. God bless you.

This is a good bit of theology, but from a philosophical standpoint it seems that you are saying that might makes right. At best you are saying that if you create something you have a right to govern how it operates and dictate what it’s ultimate fate will be. But this is an assertion. Logically speaking you have not shown me how the right to punish follows from the act of creating a person.

 

[ChainBreaker]

And so would I if that was a fair description of God. Again you are thinking of hell as existing in time. Once we pass out of time the choices we made will over. We cannot choose to do anything more or less. If we go to purgatory we will undergo further cleansing and payment for venial sins we never repented of, and the temporal damage our sins did. But we cannot undo our lives nor pretend we weren’t who we were–that we didn’t do the things we did, we said, we intended to to.

If we pass out of time i fail to see the value of concepts like purgatory. Secondly i see no necessary reason why God would put a limit on how long an individual exists in time especially when knowing that if he or she were to pass out of time their fate would be sealed. These are artificial limits which if extended could mean the difference between heaven and hell. If God is eternal love then repentance is always possible since in the end it doesn’t matter what we have done, all that matters to God is that we enter in to unity with him. Reincarnation would be more consistent with a God whose nature is essentially Love.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

What is Moral truth and why are we bound by it?

Are we talking about preference? Might makes right? Are we talking about God?

If God is the source of moral law, then what does that mean? Is morality his preference? Does might make right? Why does God have the **right **to judge or condemn or condone?

You have things all wrong. Start with the commandments and the Sermon on the Mount. What is wrong with them? Nothing. The commandments are based on the needs or our human nature and the gratitude we owe God for creating us. The Sermon on the Mount is based on the love we owe our fellow man and God. It is not a matter of " might makes right, " it is a matter of doing the right thing and avoiding what is evil. By doing good we demonstrate our love for God and our fellow man. By doing evil we are declairing that we hate our fellow man and God. If we do evil we are telling God we don’t want anything to do with him and he will let us do what we want. Heaven is a condition of love. If we love God and our fellow man on earth, we are already living in heaven and at death our choice of love is confirmed forever. Likewise, if we hate our fellow man and God now, at death our choice will be confirmed forever.

Linus2nd

 

[Contarini]

What is Moral truth and why are we bound by it?

Are we talking about preference? Might makes right? Are we talking about God?

If God is the source of moral law, then what does that mean? Is morality his preference? Does might make right? Why does God have the **right **to judge or condemn or condone?

Moral truth is a reflection of God’s nature. It could not be otherwise, except insofar as God could have made us different kinds of creatures.

Asking why God has the “right” to do something reveals a lack of understanding of what the word “God” means. The concept is meaningless applied to God.

But God does right. Right is God’s nature, and our nature reflects His, although through sin it does so brokenly.

Edwin

 

[ChainBreaker]

Moral truth is a reflection of God’s nature. It could not be otherwise, except insofar as God could have made us different kinds of creatures.

Asking why God has the “right” to do something reveals a lack of understanding of what the word “God” means. The concept is meaningless applied to God.

But God does right. Right is God’s nature, and our nature reflects His, although through sin it does so brokenly.

Edwin

What does it mean for God to do right?

If God is perfect, then there is only one ontologically perfect being. Does it not follow that we are necessarily imperfect especially in matters of morality unless God intervenes?

 

[Della]

If we pass out of time i fail to see the value of concepts like purgatory. Secondly i see no necessary reason why God would put a limit on how long an individual exists in time especially when knowing that if he or she were to pass out of time their fate would be sealed. These are artificial limits which if extended could mean the difference between heaven and hell. If God is eternal love then repentance is always possible since in the end it doesn’t matter what we have done, all that matters to God is that we enter in to unity with him. Reincarnation would be more consistent with a God whose nature is essentially Love.

It hardly matters if you or I can see the value of purgatory. God wishes that all be in heaven with him. Purgatory is his way of satisfying both his justice and his mercy, for his very essence is both, not one or the other.

Eternity is what it is, just as time is what it is. There’s nothing arbitary in that. Purgatory is God’s way of rescuing those who otherwise might be in hell–note I say might be not would be–if he did not allow us to be purged of venial sins, earthly attachments (wants/desires that we might cling to), as well as make satisfaction for the damage our sins did to ourselves and others. God gives us every chance of salvation. He doesn’t damn people who do not deserve it and who do not know why.

You need to read the Catechism on this topic. I don’t know why you have such serious misconceptions about God, but you will not be able to tell God he should have done what you think he should when you die. He is God, after all, and we are not. Accusing him of being unfair and merciless is plainly absurb considering he became one of us when he could have safely remained in heaven and let us go on our sinful way, unredeemed and unable to be saved from God’s rightful justice.

Imagining God as mean and cruel will only make you, in time, bitter and unloving. I think you need to ask yourself if that’s what you really want. Prayer about all this. I will pray for you.

 

[ChainBreaker]

It hardly matters if you or I can see the value of purgatory. God wishes that all be in heaven with him. Purgatory is his way of satisfying both his justice and his mercy, for his very essence is both, not one or the other.

Eternity is what it is, just as time is what it is. There’s nothing arbitary in that. Purgatory is God’s way of rescuing those who otherwise might be in hell–note I say might be not would be–if he did not allow us to be purged of venial sins, earthly attachments (wants/desires that we might cling to), as well as make satisfaction for the damage our sins did to ourselves and others. God gives us every chance of salvation. He doesn’t damn people who do not deserve it and who do not know why.

You need to read the Catechism on this topic. I don’t know why you have such serious misconceptions about God, but you will not be able to tell God he should have done what you think he should when you die. He is God, after all, and we are not. Accusing him of being unfair and merciless is plainly absurb considering he became one of us when he could have safely remained in heaven and let us go on our sinful way, unredeemed and unable to be saved from God’s rightful justice.

Imagining God as mean and cruel will only make you, in time, bitter and unloving. I think you need to ask yourself if that’s what you really want. Prayer about all this. I will pray for you.

You are making circular arguments, which would be fine if we were not debating on the philosophy section of catholic answers.

For example you said we go out of time when we die and therefore cannot change our choices. I argued that there can be no place for purgatory if we go out of time since purgatory is a place change. You answered back that God couldn’t care less, purgatory exists!!

What philosophy has been done by you? Why don’t you go to the apologetics forum if you wish to dictate terms and conditions?

I am not interested in what you know theologically about God i am interested in a metaphysically sound justification of why God as described in the bible does what he does and makes frets about our ultimate fate.

 

[openmind77]

What is Moral truth and why are we bound by it?

Are we talking about preference? Might makes right? Are we talking about God?

Why do you think you are bound by anything? You have free will and can do anything you want (although the laws of the country may prevent you or punish you for doing somethings).

However, each action or word will have consequences according to the Law of Karma. God does not interfere with Karma, it is automatic just like the Laws of physics or chemistry.

If God is the source of moral law, then what does that mean? Is morality his preference? Does might make right? Why does God have the **right **to judge or condemn or condone?

I don’t think God judges or condemns anybody. You choose by your own actions what happens to you or where you end up upon death.

 

[Della]

You are making circular arguments, which would be fine if we were not debating on the philosophy section of catholic answers.

No, I’m explaining Catholic teaching to you.

For example you said we go out of time when we die and therefore cannot change our choices. I argued that there can be no place for purgatory if we go out of time since purgatory is a place change. You answered back that God couldn’t care less, purgatory exists!!

I neglected to make clear that purgatory is a part of heaven. There is progression of being in heaven–we will love more and more, but not chances to make choices other than the ones we made while alive in our bodies–because our physical life has ended until the resurrection of the body. Therefore we can no longer sin, but we cannot change what we did, either.

What philosophy has been done by you? Why don’t you go to the apologetics forum if you wish to dictate terms and conditions?

Excuse me, but you did not ask a philosophical question you asked an apologetical question when you asked about hell and God’s rights, etc. Such questions indeed belong in the Apologetics forum, so, that’s where you should have posted them. :tiphat:

I am not interested in what you know theologically about God i am interested in a metaphysically sound justification of why God as described in the bible does what he does and makes frets about our ultimate fate.

In discussing hell, God’s rights, and man’s eternal destiny we are discussing theological issues. Besides, how can we discuss the Bible, which you have not asked about, without discussing theology when it a theological work not mainly a philosophical one? In any case, questions about the Bible belong in the Sacred Scripture forum.

 

[ChainBreaker]

No, I’m explaining Catholic teaching to you.

I neglected to make clear that purgatory is a part of heaven. There is progression of being in heaven–we will love more and more, but not chances to make choices other than the ones we made while alive in our bodies–because our physical life has ended until the resurrection of the body. Therefore we can no longer sin, but we cannot change what we did, either.

So now there is change in heaven.

Excuse me, but you did not ask a philosophical question you asked an apologetical question when you asked about hell and God’s rights, etc. Such questions indeed belong in the Apologetics forum, so, that’s where you should have posted them. :tiphat:

I did ask a philosophical question. You simply fail to understand the difference between context. You can state what you believe, but that is not the same thing as demonstrating that what you believe is logically consistent. Apologetics is a matter of demonstrating that what you believe is consistent with revelation. Its not the same thing.

In discussing hell, God’s rights, and man’s eternal destiny we are discussing theological issues.

We are discussing theological issues and i am asking you to demonstrate the logical consistency of those issues.

Besides, how can we discuss the Bible, which you have not asked about, without discussing theology when it a theological work not mainly a philosophical one? In any case, questions about the Bible belong in the Sacred Scripture forum.

If you don’t know how to demonstrate your theological position within a philosophical context then say so. Don’t pretend as if you know what you are talking about.

 

[cena]

So now there is change in heaven.

I did ask a philosophical question. You simply fail to understand the difference between context. You can state what you believe, but that is not the same thing as demonstrating that what you believe is logically consistent. Apologetics is a matter of demonstrating that what you believe is consistent with revelation. Its not the same thing.

We are discussing theological issues and i am asking you to demonstrate the logical consistency of those issues.

If you don’t know how to demonstrate your theological position within a philosophical context then say so. Don’t pretend as if you know what you are talking about.

I don’t know if purgatory is part of heaven, but everyone in purgatory goes to heaven

 

[Della]

So now there is change in heaven.

I explained what it means. I will not repeat myself. Re-read my statement or read the Catechism–this latter suggestion is the better one.

I did ask a philosophical question. You simply fail to understand the difference between context. You can state what you believe, but that is not the same thing as demonstrating that what you believe is logically consistent. Apologetics is a matter of demonstrating that what you believe is consistent with revelation. Its not the same thing.

We are discussing theological issues and i am asking you to demonstrate the logical consistency of those issues.

If you don’t know how to demonstrate your theological position within a philosophical context then say so. Don’t pretend as if you know what you are talking about.

If you wish to argue semantics, you need to start a new thread on that topic. My intentions were to aid you in your understanding of the questions you raised, Apparently I failed in that. I hope our lurkers and seekers got something from my poor words. I hope you find the truth. You have had and will continue to have my prayers. Good-bye and God bless.

 

[ready]

This is a good bit of theology, but from a philosophical standpoint it seems that you are saying that might makes right. At best you are saying that if you create something you have a right to govern how it operates and dictate what it’s ultimate fate will be. But this is an assertion. Logically speaking you have not shown me how the right to punish follows from the act of creating a person.

A Lord has rights over all his subjects, and our good Lord God gives us (His subjects and children) every good thing we have and need, gratuitously, and just for the asking. God is Lord and a good Lord God, who created us and loves us inestimably and gives us every good thing we have and need; so it is our duty to submit to His holy Will and to be thankful to Him for everything, as loyal children and faithful subjects should. Might does NOT make right with God: ALL of God’s ways and decrees ARE RIGHT, because He is God, a God Who is all-good, all-wise, all-perfect, all-fair, all-merciful, etc.–we owe as our duty to Him our blind obedience and filial love, for He is all-good and deserving of all our love. He is a loving God and Father, who has made us His children and friends. As His faithful children and friends we should love Him and honor Him above all else and above all others, acknowledging His Kingship over our hearts and over the whole universe. He reigns and has every right to rule over us the way He does, for He is an all-good and all-just (all-fair) Lord God. If you have a problem accepting the Kingship of Christ over ALL, then all I can say to you is that it is time for you to submit to Him … you owe your submission to our loving God, Father, Creator, and King. God bless you.

 

[ChainBreaker]

A Lord has rights over all his subjects

I know that’s your position, now all you have to do is demonstrate it logically. Otherwise all you are saying is that might makes right which is purely nihilistic - not divine.

 

[ready]

I know that’s your position, now all you have to do is demonstrate it logically. Otherwise all you are saying is that might makes right which is purely nihilistic - not divine.

I disagree with you. I have already shown in my last post that might does not make right with God: as I said, our Lord God simply has rights over us as a good Lord, Creator and King deserves: and He IS deserving of all our love, obedience and submission, for we are His, not our own. Do not good, faithful and obedient children submit to their fathers and to their fathers’ decisions? Do not faithful, obedient loyal citizens submit to their rulers and to their rulers’ decrees? Our Lord God is our Father and our Ruler–let us obey Him as His faithful, loving children and as obedient, loyal subjects should. I mean no disrespect to any person, but I detest the Modernism that is rampant on these forums, I can’t believe that I have to argue such an obvious truth: that it is our duty to honor the Kingship of our Lord Jesus Christ and His absolute rule and complete rights over us as our loving King, Lord, Father and Creator. You seem to be forgetting that we are His and not our own! God bless you.