What is Non-Denominational?

[SteveVH]

Christ commanded we be baptised.

But this new life is not an effect of the baptism. Some but not all will agree with my statement
How can getting wet convince me any more than staying dry?

Never seen a baptism outside,in the open, of any fellowship. Why isn’t standing there good enough afteer all i am only getting wet for no real benifit of my soul.
If you would kindly do so that would great:thumbsup:

No offense, but I was rather shocked when I saw that you describe yourself as “Catholic”. What do you mean that “this new life is not an effect of the baptism”? I would suggest you find a class on the sacraments or have a long talk with your priest. You are certainly not promoting the Catholic view of baptism with these comments.

 

[ltwin]

Itwin, may I ask where you arrived at the idea that *"baptism is a public proclamation of a private commitment to Christ". I must admit that I have not read through all of the posts in this thread and so if this has already been discussed I beg your pardon.

When one converts, it is expected that if they have not already been baptized that they be baptized. Some churches actually encourage that you get baptized before you officially join the church. Others don’t make it a requirement for membership, but they still expect it to be done eventually. Either way, baptism is generally looked at as an already converted person making a conscious decision to fully embrace their identity in Christ and all the responsibilities that come with that.

Perhaps you’ve heard the phrase, “blessed outward sign of an inward work.” (This is much more correct than the “private commitment” I used earlier. It is not just a commitment we make but a inward work of God’s Spirit). The inward work that has already been accomplished in a person (we having become dead to sin and our old natures being nailed to the cross and we now walking in newness of life) is shown and confirmed publicly by that person falling into the water and rising out of it, even as Christ was buried and rose again.

I am sure that others have informed you that in the Catholic Church we believe that baptism, being a sacrament, actually has an effect on the soul, purely through the grace of God.

Yeah, I understand the Catholic position and have no intention of arguing that here. I only bring up baptism because someone asked why would a non-denom church require “re-baptism” if baptism is not seen as really important. The answer is that while baptism is not seen as a sacrament or regenerative in any sense, it is still very important and non-denoms want to get it right just as much as Catholics do.

 

[PRmerger]

We don’t tend to stake claims to the fullness of truth at the detriment of every other fellowship of believers. That would be silly.

Indeed, that would be silly if it were to the detriment of every other fellowship of believers.

However, making claims to the fullness of truth is not something that, of its nature, ought to be dismissed outright.

You have made a claim to have some form of the fullness of truth yourself, Sixpence. Of that I am certain.

Unless you are claiming that you do not have the fullness of truth when you say that Muslims are wrong when they deny the deity of Christ? Or that JWs are wrong when they deny the Trinity?

 

[fbl9]

No offense, but I was rather shocked when I saw that you describe yourself as “Catholic”. What do you mean that “this new life is not an effect of the baptism”? I would suggest you find a class on the sacraments or have a long talk with your priest. You are certainly not promoting the Catholic view of baptism with these comments.

PLease read the post as a response to itwins post
And yes i find your post offensive, as it was meant to be.

 

[fbl9]

If the church he goes to now practices believer’s baptism, then they wont accept infant baptism (assuming the friend was baptized as an infant).

As to why it would be important to “re-baptize” (though the church in question wouldn’t consider it a “re-baptism”):

*the Bible says we should be baptized
*baptism is a public proclamation of a private commitment to Christ
*just as Christ rose from the grave, in baptism we declare that in Christ we too rise from death to newness of life
*baptism is a faith strengthening act

 

[fbl9]

*baptism is a faith strengthening act

It’s not convincing you. If you’re in the process of being baptized, I’d hope you’d already be convinced. For people watching, however, actually being submerged and then rising out of the water could be a powerful image. It doesn’t really matter to me, for some people it does likely because they think that full immersion was the way it was done in the early church.

What is faith if not conviction?

Still it is an utterly empty ritual, Rituals being the very thing which non-denoms strive to get away from.
Please try to understand i am trying to point this out iam not discussing the effects of baptism but the lack of them makes the baptism an empty ritual.

. Communions of “He’s really present yet not there” Cause if Christ were truly present you would worship Him as He is wholly present before you.Yes communions of this kind are just plain empty.And are another empty ritual practiced by those who claim no rituals.

 

[SteveVH]

When one converts, it is expected that if they have not already been baptized that they be baptized. Some churches actually encourage that you get baptized before you officially join the church. Others don’t make it a requirement for membership, but they still expect it to be done eventually. Either way, baptism is generally looked at as an already converted person making a conscious decision to fully embrace their identity in Christ and all the responsibilities that come with that.

Perhaps you’ve heard the phrase, “blessed outward sign of an inward work.” (This is much more correct than the “private commitment” I used earlier. It is not just a commitment we make but a inward work of God’s Spirit). The inward work that has already been accomplished in a person (we having become dead to sin and our old natures being nailed to the cross and we now walking in newness of life) is shown and confirmed publicly by that person falling into the water and rising out of it, even as Christ was buried and rose again.

Yeah, I understand the Catholic position and have no intention of arguing that here. I only bring up baptism because someone asked why would a non-denom church require “re-baptism” if baptism is not seen as really important. The answer is that while baptism is not seen as a sacrament or regenerative in any sense, it is still very important and non-denoms want to get it right just as much as Catholics do.

 

[SteveVH]

PLease read the post as a response to itwins post
And yes i find your post offensive, as it was meant to be.

Sorry, when I look back I guess I would have been offended as well. Please accept my apology. I am still quite confused as to what it is you believe about baptism, however.

 

[fbl9]

Sorry, when I look back I guess I would have been offended as well. Please accept my apology. I am still quite confused as to what it is you believe about baptism, however.

None of my post are meant to give my postion on baptism. They are meant to show that a baptism without effects is just an empty ritual.

 

[ltwin]

Still it is an utterly empty ritual,

You might see it as empty. I do not.

Rituals being the very thing which non-denoms strive to get away from.

We don’t strive to get away from ritual. We strive to get away from man made and man instituted rituals. Baptism is something that is instituted by Christ.

Please try to understand i am trying to point this out iam not discussing the effects of baptism but the lack of them makes the baptism an empty ritual.

It’s only empty if you think that a sign actually must accomplish what it signifies when the sign is performed. We believe the outward sign of baptism signifies something that has already happened inwardly. It is not empty, but it signifies something very real.

Communions of “He’s really present yet not there” Cause if Christ were truly present you would worship Him as He is wholly present before you.Yes communions of this kind are just plain empty.And are another empty ritual practiced by those who claim no rituals.

Who is claiming “no rituals?” Once again, it is not the lack of rituals we claim. It is that Christians should not be obligated to adhere to man made rituals. Baptism and Communion are “rituals” but were specifically ordained by God.

And I have no idea what you’re referring to. In my church, we believe Christ is present among us when we gather together and praise his holy name together. God dwells in the midst of his people. There are different degrees of God’s presence. There is his abiding presence. God is omnipresent, and he never leaves his children. But God also makes his presence known in a special way when his people gather together. Of course, Christ is present when we have Holy Communion. I don’t think any Protestant denies that.

 

[fbl9]

You might see it as empty. I do not.

We don’t strive to get away from ritual. We strive to get away from man made and man instituted rituals. Baptism is something that is instituted by Christ.

It’s only empty if you think that a sign actually must accomplish what it signifies when the sign is performed. We believe the outward sign of baptism signifies something that has already happened inwardly. It is not empty, but it signifies something very real.

Who is claiming “no rituals?” Once again, it is not the lack of rituals we claim. It is that Christians should not be obligated to adhere to man made rituals. Baptism and Communion are “rituals” but were specifically ordained by God.

And I have no idea what you’re referring to. In my church, we believe Christ is present among us when we gather together and praise his holy name together. God dwells in the midst of his people. There are different degrees of God’s presence. There is his abiding presence. God is omnipresent, and he never leaves his children. But God also makes his presence known in a special way when his people gather together. Of course, Christ is present when we have Holy Communion. I don’t think any Protestant denies that.

a representation is not an actual.
You worship Christ present in the communion?.not. If Christ is wholly present why can’t anybody see Him in your midst?

 

[ltwin]

a representation is not an actual.
You worship Christ present in the communion?.not. If Christ is wholly present why can’t anybody see Him in your midst?

I walk by faith not by sight. And isn’t that what Catholics do when they look at the cup and the wafer and believe that that is the actual body and blood of Christ? I mean, you can’t look at the wafer with physical eyes and see human flesh. You can’t look at the wine with physical eyes and see blood.

 

[fbl9]

I walk by faith not by sight. And isn’t that what Catholics do when they look at the cup and the wafer and believe that that is the actual body and blood of Christ? I mean, you can’t look at the wafer with physical eyes and see human flesh. You can’t look at the wine with physical eyes and see blood.

Nor can you recieve your communion bread and say “my God and savior”.

Baptism seen as completely symbolic is form without substance, and that without substance is empty.

 

[ltwin]

Nor can you recieve your communion bread and say “my God and savior”.

Baptism seen as completely symbolic is form without substance, and that without substance is empty.

There are many things I could label “form without substance” but then I think we’ve beaten this horse to death and derailed the thread from its topic enough.

 

[ManOnFire]

I sometimes think being a good Christian in general is more important than the denomination. Some people’s hearts are in the right place, regardless of denomination. Those are the people I want as my friends.

 

[Taylor_Davis]

Okay. Let me clear a few things up. Being non-denominational myself, I hope to bring new insight into this discussion. Non-denominational is basically everything that doesn’t fit into or isn’t a part of another denomination. Non-denominational churches don’t make you conform to man-made tradition (or at least my church doesn’t). My non-denominational church believes Christianity is about relationship, not religion. Religion is NOT what Jesus died for us to have! Jesus wouldn’t have had to die to let us have religion, because they already had that! Jesus died so that we would be able to have a relationship with God. You do not have to go to “Mass” every Sunday in order to have a relationship with God. You do not have to confess your sins to a priest in order to be forgiven. What that’s basically saying is that you believe that God knows when you sin, but not that you want to be forgiven? God is OMNISCIENT- and I’ll break that down into the Latin root words for you. Omni- means ALL, and SCIENT means Knowing. Therefore, the word “omniscient” means “ALL-knowing”, and so, since God knows that you want forgiveness, you only need to ask Him in prayer, you don’t need a sacrament. Okay, I’m done ranting off-topic now. Anyway, non-denominationals do not usually believe in the religious customs, but we do believe in Communion and baptism. Non-denominational churches tend towards being more lively than denominational churches. I personally think that, in general, the closer you get to Catholic, the more dull and boring it gets. There are exceptions, though. Non-denominational churches also tend to be bigger and more up-to-date with modern technology. I hope this made you think a little.

God bless

 

[PRmerger]

My non-denominational church believes Christianity is about relationship, not religion.

Religion, Taylor, comes from the Latin word for relationship, religare, which means, literally, to tie or bind.

So to say that Christianity is about relationship, not religion, is a bit nonsensical. You are saying, essentially, “Christianity is about relationship, not relationship.”

And, you wouldn’t know anything at all about Christ without religion–for it was religion that gave you the Bible, and religion which gave you the Church.

 

[PRmerger]

You do not have to go to “Mass” every Sunday in order to have a relationship with God.

I agree. But receiving the Eucharist is the only way for you to have a consummated relationship with Your Beloved. You can’t do that any other way as a human creature.

You do not have to confess your sins to a priest in order to be forgiven.

Then why did Christ give men the authority to forgive sins in his name?

“Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” -John 20:22

What that’s basically saying is that you believe that God knows when you sin, but not that you want to be forgiven? God is OMNISCIENT- and I’ll break that down into the Latin root words for you. Omni- means ALL, and SCIENT means Knowing. Therefore, the word “omniscient” means “ALL-knowing”, and so, since God knows that you want forgiveness,

you only need to ask Him in prayer,

And this contradicts your comment above. If he’s ALL KNOWING, then why does your pastor believe that we have to ask Him in prayer for forgiveness?

I personally think that, in general, the closer you get to Catholic, the more dull and boring it gets.

I think that’s because you don’t know what is occurring at the Divine Liturgy.

Not to mention, you are calling Scripture “dull and boring” because that’s what we’re reciting at the Mass.

Non-denominational churches also tend to be bigger and more up-to-date with modern technology.

That would be a very curious reason indeed to leave the Catholic Church for a ND church.

 

[ltwin]

Non-denominational churches also tend to be bigger and more up-to-date with modern technology.

While there are alot of non-denom megachurches out there, not all non-denoms (in fact most non-denoms) are big. Most are regular sized churches.

 

[SteveVH]

Non-denominational churches don’t make you conform to man-made tradition (or at least my church doesn’t). My non-denominational church believes Christianity is about relationship, not religion.

So now you aren’t non-denominational any more. You have a set of common beliefs. You have a religion.

Religion is NOT what Jesus died for us to have! Jesus wouldn’t have had to die to let us have religion, because they already had that! Jesus died so that we would be able to have a relationship with God. You do not have to go to “Mass” every Sunday in order to have a relationship with God.

Really? Have you ever heard the words "Do this in memory of me."? This isn’t a suggestion, it is a command, along with “Keep holy the Lord’s day”. This is not to say that there are certainly other ways to have a relationship with God, the question is what kind of relationship? There is nothing more intimate than receiving Christ in the Eucharist. We consume his glorified body and he consumes us. Why would anyone wish to stay away from something so wonderful?

You do not have to confess your sins to a priest in order to be forgiven. What that’s basically saying is that you believe that God knows when you sin, but not that you want to be forgiven? God is OMNISCIENT- and I’ll break that down into the Latin root words for you. Omni- means ALL, and SCIENT means Knowing. Therefore, the word “omniscient” means “ALL-knowing”, and so, since God knows that you want forgiveness, you only need to ask Him in prayer, you don’t need a sacrament.

I don’t have the energy to really respond to your comments about confession. There are a thousand threads and mountains of writing about the sacrament of reconciliation. Sounds like you believe that you know what is in the heart of a Catholic confessing his sins. You have made your own determination that “you only need to ask Him in prayer, you don’t need a sacrament”. You are proclaiming dogma; a set of belilefs. How can you say you are not a religion?

Anyway, non-denominationals do not usually believe in the religious customs, but we do believe in Communion and baptism.

So you really do believe in “some” religious customs, along with those mentioned above.

Non-denominational churches tend towards being more lively than denominational churches. I personally think that, in general, the closer you get to Catholic, the more dull and boring it gets. There are exceptions, though. Non-denominational churches also tend to be bigger and more up-to-date with modern technology. I hope this made you think a little.

Where do I sign up? :clapping::dancing::extrahappy: