What is Oral Tradition

[JaneFrances]

It is certain that many of your beliefs would be unkown to the apostles or at least their is no evidence that the apostles believed much of anything you do.

Really? I was under the impression that as Christians we are united by our faith in Christ and that which unites us is quite more than that which divides us.

And further, assuming you espouse one of the great tenets of Reformed theology, you have no certainty of anything the apostles taught beyond the collection of Sacred Scriptures you inherited from the Catholic Chuch. The things you believe “the apostles believed,” you ultimately learned from the Catholic Church. You needn’t wave so vigorously the flag we sewed for you.

What it comes down to with you is the “church alone” as opposed to “sola scriptura” or “sola fide”.

I understand your frustration. But do not allow yourself to be pulled down by simplistic polemics. There is much to be clarified on both ends of your equation. These issues are quite more complex than most recognize. Do not think you have Catholicism all figured out as you have already shown much ignorance on the topic.

Afterall, it is the church that tells you what is and what isn’t in your “tradition” and what scripture means and what it doesn’t mean. You put the church, at least in practice, above everything else.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Stop ranting at us. If you have specific questions, we will continue to do our best to answer them. This is Catholic Answers.

So, what do you want as proof that your church is certainly not what Jesus or the apostles envisioned…except maybe in a nightmare.

Stop stomping your foot, Reformed. We understand that you are frustrated and this dialogue isn’t going your way. Maybe you need a time out.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Randy,

Do you really think that the NT church is even close to what the Catholic Church is today? C’mon, you can’t be serious.

It is certain that many of your beliefs would be unkown to the apostles or at least their is no evidence that the apostles believed much of anything you do.

What it comes down to with you is the “church alone” as opposed to “sola scriptura” or “sola fide”. Afterall, it is the church that tells you what is and what isn’t in your “tradition” and what scripture means and what it doesn’t mean. You put the church, at least in practice, above everything else.

So, what do you want as proof that your church is certainly not what Jesus or the apostles envisioned…except maybe in a nightmare.

lol, excuse me? I’m sorry but I really believe you have no idea what you’re talking about.

You may want to lurk for a while and check some Catholic sources for OUR doctrine, instead of our detractors.
The Catechism might be a good place to start.

www.scripturecatholic.com is another place, as well.

 

[Reformed1]

Really? I was under the impression that as Christians we are united by our faith in Christ and that which unites us is quite more than that which divides us.

And further, assuming you espouse one of the great tenets of Reformed theology, you have no certainty of anything the apostles taught beyond the collection of Sacred Scriptures you inherited from the Catholic Chuch. The things you believe “the apostles believed,” you ultimately learned from the Catholic Church. You needn’t wave so vigorously the flag we sewed for you.

I understand your frustration. But do not allow yourself to be pulled down by simplistic polemics. There is much to be clarified on both ends of your equation. These issues are quite more complex than most recognize. Do not think you have Catholicism all figured out as you have already shown much ignorance on the topic.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Stop ranting at us. If you have specific questions, we will continue to do our best to answer them. This is Catholic Answers.

Stop stomping your foot, Reformed. We understand that you are frustrated and this dialogue isn’t going your way. Maybe you need a time out.

What exactly have I missed? What ignorance have I shown?

As far as you guys practicing “sola ecclesia”, it seems to be a given. The magesterium seems to place itself above both scripture and tradition, does it not? Afterall, scripture isn’t given primacy nor is tradition but it’s the church that rules supreme.

Where am I off track here?

 

[Randy_Carson]

You have the nerve to accuse me of calling Christ a liar than call me on using “Romish”?

You are full of bovine fecal matter.

I did not say that you claim Jesus lied by logical extension of your argument of your argument that the Church is not infallible when Christ promised the Holy Spirit would lead it into all truth.

If I was unclear, I apologize, but to deny this is to say that Christ’s promise is not true. Seems straightforward to me.

I meant nothing more than this.

 

[Reformed1]

I did not say that you called Jesus a liar, but that it is a logical result of your argument that the Church is not infallible when Christ promised the Holy Spirit would lead it into all truth.

To deny this is to say that Christ’s promise is not true.

I meant nothing more than this.

My apologies then. I admit, I took your comment completely the wrong way and reacted badly.

So, please ignore the rant and we will get back on track.

 

[Randy_Carson]

My apologies then. I admit, I took your comment completely the wrong way and reacted badly.

So, please ignore the rant and we will get back on track.

Okay, no problem. It’s late.

Sometimes I think a day off from this forum is a good mental health practice!

 

[JaneFrances]

What exactly have I missed? What ignorance have I shown?

Fair enough. First let me qualify my statement, now that I have your attention. I do not say “ignorant” to mean you are dumb. I am not name calling. I don’t think you an ignorant person, as such. However, your enumerations of the Traditions and your claim that none is rooted in apostolic teaching only serves to show that you are not knowledgable regarding the deep roots of certain doctrines. I could list them, but that would derail this thread. Suffice it to say, start threads on any of your enumerated un-apostolic Catholic doctrines, and we’ll be there!

As far as you guys practicing “sola ecclesia”, it seems to be a given. The magesterium seems to place itself above both scripture and tradition, does it not? Afterall, scripture isn’t given primacy nor is tradition but it’s the church that rules supreme.

Now, we’re getting somewhere! Ahhh. . .

Where am I off track here?

The word is stewardship. The steward is not superior to the charge. The church, led by the apostolic successors, is charged with the deposit of faith. Your folly is in assuming that we, as Catholics, bow at the altar of the church, when in fact we bow at the altar of our Lord, which the church tends. For Catholics, Christ rules supreme, do not mistake this. We no more idolized ecclesia than you do scriptura.

We merely adhere to the faith Tradition passed down to us by the Apostles. Witnessed to by Sacred Scripture. Affirmed by the Early Church. And sustained by the test of time and the frailty of the human condition.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I understand your frustration. But do not allow yourself to be pulled down by simplistic polemics.

Jane-

I am eager to learn, so if my “simplistic polemics” have contributed to our guest’s frustation, I will be happily corrected.

Scold me in public or PM me privately.

I am better for it either way.

:yup:

 

[JaneFrances]

Jane-

I am eager to learn, so if my “simplistic polemics” have contributed to our guest’s frustation, I will be happily corrected.

Scold me in public or PM me privately.

I am better for it either way.

:yup:

We are all better with a serving of humble pie every so often. . .I should get seconds some days!

But, no, I was not referencing you.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Thread pruned, posts edited or deleted, and infractions issued.
Generally you guys do better than this.
Let’s get settled down please.
MF

 

[HailMary]

www.scripturecatholic.com is another place, as well.

Thanks Semper Fi, this website is amazing.

 

[YADA]

This is Oral Tradition:

---

It is an Oral Tradition of the Protestants that the “Bible” is the only authoratative Word of God also known as ***“Sola Scriptura”. ***Martin Luther began this oral tradition with the assistance of the other reformers. The priamary assistance provided by the other reformers was to accept the New Testament Canon as it was handed down, complete with the Book of Revelation, First Timothy, Jude, etc.

It is an Oral Tradition of the Protestants that "Faith Alone" is necessary necessary for salvation. This Oral Tradition is also known as "Sola Fide" and is also handed on by the reformers, especially by martin Luther who added the word "alone" after the word ‘works’ in his translation of the Letter to the Romans.

It is an Oral Tradition that a person is "Once saved, Always saved" which is not found any where in scripture.

 

[HailMary]

This is Oral Tradition:

---

It is an Oral Tradition of the Protestants that the “Bible” is the only authoratative Word of God also known as ***“Sola Scriptura”. ***Martin Luther began this oral tradition with the assistance of the other reformers. The priamary assistance provided by the other reformers was to accept the New Testament Canon as it was handed down, complete with the Book of Revelation, First Timothy, Jude, etc.

It is an Oral Tradition of the Protestants that "Faith Alone" is necessary necessary for salvation. This Oral Tradition is also known as "Sola Fide" and is also handed on by the reformers, especially by martin Luther who added the word "alone" after the word ‘works’ in his translation of the Letter to the Romans.

It is an Oral Tradition that a person is "Once saved, Always saved" which is not found any where in scripture.

Very nice.

 

[HailMary]

CCC126

We can distinguish three stages in the formation of the Gospels:

1. The life and teaching of Jesus. The Church holds firmly that the four Gospels, “whose historicity she unhesitatingly affirms, faithfully hand on what Jesus, the Son of God, while he lived among men, really did and taught for their eternal salvation, until the day when he was taken up.”
2. The oral tradition. “For, after the ascension of the Lord, the apostles handed on to their hearers what he had said and done, but with that fuller understanding which they, instructed by the glorious events of Christ and enlightened by the Spirit of truth, now enjoyed.”
3. The written Gospels. “The sacred authors, in writing the four Gospels, selected certain of the many elements which had been handed on, either orally or already in written form; others they synthesized or explained with an eye to the situation of the churches, the while sustaining the form of preaching, but always in such a fashion that they have told us the honest truth about Jesus.”

 

[YADA]

Thanks…

Many doctrines exist with Christianity and not all of them are taught by the Catholic Church. Many Christians do not realize that though they say Scripture is the sole authority, they fail to recognize that this is a doctrine that was ‘implicit’ in how they were religiously formmed, even if it was not explicitly taught.

Many oral traditions are accepted by our protestant brethren; some are valid [they went unchallenged by the reformers and were carried over from the pre-reformation Christian practice.]

Some are not [being innovations of the reformers or innovations that went unchallenged by the initial reformers but arose during the ‘enlightenment’ or some other more reecnt time].

Some protestants have never heard the term ‘sola scriptura’ nor know the history, however they accept the teaching as it was presented and they accept it as “Gospel”

 

[Guardian333]

Malcom Mclean hit the nail on the head.

“Oral tradition” is loosely, beliefs held by the Church which didn’t make it into the canonical scriptures, but which were handed down from the apostles.

Solascriptura. There is your one sentence. Also, Tradition is another word for what Catholics call the “Deposit of Faith”. The various “doctrines” of the Catholic Church are examples of Oral Tradition. The Doctrine of the Trinity is an example of Oral Tradition. Both Protestants (most of them at least) and Catholics believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity, and that is a form of Oral Tradition. No where in the Bible do you find the explicit word “Trinity” in the Bible, but it is indirectly implied through many scriptural passages. Therefore, it’s doctrine, the Trinity, was clarified in early church councils. This process is a prime example of Oral Tradition. So when we have a difficult question of Biblical interpretation, we don’t just read the rest of the Bible to find the answer to the difficult question. We turn to Tradition as preserved and protected by the Church to see what the people of God believed before us.

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Guardian333:

Excellent point to SolaScriptura.

However, he’s got an agenda and I don’t think he will address your point.

Pax Christi
St Joseph Marysville

 

[Guardian333]

If he has an agenda, then his heart is rooted in pride, which is the deadliest of all sins. Let us pray for his and our own humility.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

SolaScriptura

Hi Mike,

This is not about sola Scriptura. I’m trying to understand what you all mean by Oral Tradition. Got an answer for the question I asked?

From the posts I’ve read you’ve had good, straight forward answers to your question regarding oral tradition. Now would you please as the question I put to you?

Iowa Mike

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi,

I have a question Catholics say that in order to understand the faith we need to have Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium—correct?

What happens when Sacred/Oral Tradition does not line up with the Bible? Which one trumps the other?Does the bible win out or doea Sacred/Oral Tradition win out.

Beofre anyone tells me that there is nothing in Tradition that doesnt agree with the Bible–there is most of Marian theology(I do not wish to discuss–just an example) and the list that someone put out earlier in thread.
Please a simple answer will do. It is either one or the other.

Thanks:thumbsup: