What is Papal Authority?

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noma said:
Except I don’t claim that I’m infallible in this matter, or that I should be adhered to. I may be wrong. But if I am, somebody better be able to establish it.

I am willing to make this claim. I doubt the Pope would. This is what separates my claims from his.
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If the Church is offering an admixture of truth and error (just like you) for you to take or leave, why would Jesus say the following?:

…But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you. . . . If he refuses to listen . . . tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector’ (Mt 18:15-17).
 
noma said:
So if the Pope is equal to the other Patriarchs in this manner, how can he act, as he is only one Patriarch, with the other four considering that his decisions are at best in error, and at worse heresy?
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I see I have miscommunicated. The Pope’s role in the whole Church is similar to the roles of the Patriarchs within their respective Churches.
noma said:
The impressive respect that the majority of the Christian world, and Catholicism have in Orthodoxy makes me very much want to become Orthodox.
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Up to this point, I thought you were Orthodox.
 
DeFide said:
If the Church is offering an admixture of truth and error (just like you) for you to take or leave, why would Jesus say the following?:

…But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you. . . . If he refuses to listen . . . tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector’ (Mt 18:15-17).
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We must stand with our convictions, even if they are wrong.
 
vern_humphrey said:
I see I have miscommunicated. The Pope’s role in the whole Church is similar to the roles of the Patriarchs within their respective Churches.
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It is where the distinction lies (and maybe not even that far) that I take issue.
Up to this point, I thought you were Orthodox.
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Not yet. I have left the Catholic faith, and am considering Orthodoxy or Protestantism.
 
DeFide said:
You didn’t even attempt to answer my question.
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I was giving you my interpretation. When we think someone is wrong, we confront them privately, then with more than one person, ultimately leading to confronting them with the church. And so if the church finds fault, and you find fault also, as a member of your church, you should find the person outside of the church.

But none of this implies that if the church would find fault, and you wouldn’t, that the same would be the case.

If your church community is tossing you out, then you should look into whether you should revise your beliefs. If you find confidence in what you believe, you should find another church that will accept you, and may God have mercy on those who turned you away, just as much as He may upon you for choosing not to return.
 
noma said:
I was giving you my interpretation. When we think someone is wrong, we confront them privately, then with more than one person, ultimately leading to confronting them with the church. And so if the church finds fault, and you find fault also, as a member of your church, you should find the person outside of the church.

But none of this implies that if the church would find fault, and you wouldn’t, that the same would be the case.

If your church community is tossing you out, then you should look into whether you should revise your beliefs. If you find confidence in what you believe, you should find another church that will accept you, and may God have mercy on those who turned you away, just as much as He may upon you for choosing not to return.
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So what Jesus meant to say is, “…and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him examine his beliefs and start his own church if he feels confident”.

Is that about right? Jesus was just interested in creating a multiplicity of conflicting churches we may ultimately ignore?
 
noma said:
It is where the distinction lies (and maybe not even that far) that I take issue.

Not yet. I have left the Catholic faith, and am considering Orthodoxy or Protestantism.
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You seem to have to have some serious issues which extend beyond the scope of this discussion. I will pray for you.
 
DeFide said:
Is that about right? Jesus was just interested in creating a multiplicity of conflicting churches we may ultimately ignore?
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It is right, I think, in a way. Though what was said was certainly what was meant to be said, I think the purpose is in establishing conviction.

If we are not convicted where we are, we had best not stay there. I am not convicted of the Truth of the Catholic Church. I will not stay there.

We are supposed to be convicted in Truth, but also we are to have a unity in that Truth. It may be that, as the Truth is known imperfectly to us, and taught imperfectly, so the union will be imperfect, invisible, until Christ comes.

Or maybe the union is perfected in the Orthodox Church.

Of this I am not sure.
 
noma said:
It is right, I think, in a way. Though what was said was certainly what was meant to be said, I think the purpose is in establishing conviction.

.
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Really? It establishes conviction to have the Church Christ established…

1Tim 3:15 - Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Lk 10:16 - whoever hears you, hears me; rejects you, rejects me.

Eph 4:3-6 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father

Jn 16:13 - guided by Holy Spirit into all truth

…It establishes conviction to have THAT church tell you that you are wrong? It seems the opposite would be true.
 
DeFide said:
Really? It establishes conviction to have the Church Christ established…

1Tim 3:15 - Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Lk 10:16 - whoever hears you, hears me; rejects you, rejects me.

Eph 4:3-6 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father

Jn 16:13 - guided by Holy Spirit into all truth

…It establishes conviction to have THAT church tell you that you are wrong? It seems the opposite would be true.
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This only establishes that the Church as body of Christ is to be the pillar of Truth (of Christ) within the world. Not that it would visibly promulgate the Truth through a clear hierarchy. This Church may be the invisible body of Christ, composed of all believers.
 
noma said:
I think
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mostly because these Christian bodies did not understand the science of contraception, and also had a poorly-developed philosophy about it.Really? Is that why all the pagan philosphers condemned it as well?
 
noma said:
That we do not know. That the gates of hell will not prevail may imply that only one person at any given time actually accepts no error. Or it may mean that we are all in error but things are improving. Or it may mean that all things are in error now, but will be repaired in the end.
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Hypothesis not supported by the plain literal sense of any given passage of scripture or Sacred Tradition.
It may just mean
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that those who love and follow Christ, and who teach Christ’s message, however imperfectly, will live forever.Terminology of subjective speculation.
It may also mean that the Orthodox Church is the one true Church, and that its teachings are protected from error.
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Except that their teachings do not match the historically verifiable teaching of the ECF.
 
Church_Militant said:
Hypothesis not supported by the plain literal sense of any given passage of scripture or Sacred Tradition.Terminology of subjective speculation.
Except that their teachings do not match the historically verifiable teaching of the ECF.
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There are some heresies that came out of Eastern Orthodoxy
Marcionites, Ebionites, Montanism, Monarchians, Tritheism, Modalism, Basidilians, Carpocratians, Tertullianists, Origenists, Manicheans, Millenarians, Novatians, Donatists, Arians, Macedonians, Appollinarists, Jovinians, Vigilantians, Pelagians, Semipelagians, Nestorians, Predestinarians, Monophysites,
 
I sometimes imagine the following conversation:
Christian: Lord Jesus, I am your slave. I will follow you anywhere and do whatever you want, make any sacrifice, obey you no matter what it costs me, give you all my life, my heart, my will, my riches, my reputation - all of my possessions I pour out at your feet. I will follow you anywhere.
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Jesus: Great. Follow Peter.
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Christian: Say what??
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noma said:
Merck Manual, a peer-reviewed text cataloguing and describing medicines contradicts this.

What peer-reviewed study do you have that supports this claim?
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I am looking for the information you requested. I thought I used to have it on my favorites, but I can’t find it.

But I am confused as to how there could be a study on how the pill is NOT an arbortifacient since some of the information that comes with the pill lists it itself.

But I will look for the information and have asked others to help me find it also.

Again, while this is not directly at papal authority, it is related. We could start a new thread, but I think in one or two more posts this should be resolved.

God Bless,
Maria
 
I can’t find it online, but St. Thomas Aquinas makes a solid rational argument for the papacy in his Summa Against the Gentiles, chapter 76. 👍
 
noma said:
This only establishes that the Church as body of Christ is to be the pillar of Truth (of Christ) within the world. Not that it would visibly promulgate the Truth through a clear hierarchy. This Church may be the invisible body of Christ, composed of all believers.
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I know you wanted to make this a separate topic, and you can answer it in a new thread if you like, but how can you “take it to the church”, per Jesus’ command, if you cannot see the church?
 
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