What is Reason?

[Bruno_Schulz]

Bruno, I am trying to take the viewpoint of reason, (the topic of the thread), not completely stating my own beliefs. And I am trying not to attempt a complete philosophical proof, since I already feel I have derailed the thread.

**Dear Biggie and the rest of all readers

This too anxious keeping to the subject, is precisely the point on most Christian issues, and it capsules in instead of spreading. I was several times admonished to stick to the topic in all forums here as in Austria, Switzerland, Germany (except my own forum but all Christian themes and Christianity itself involve every single aspect of everything, reaching even into the remotest “nonchristian” thing and thought of life, (such like 2 chicken defending each other out of love .
No, you did for that reason not derail the thread.

All the several meanings of REASON, (there are at least 20 words for “reason” in German) reach deep into Christianity, as there is firstly no brain(spirit)-reason among other creatures but humans, which is most astonishing to atheists, - secondly reason is given by God (there’s no other reason why animals don’t have it) - and thirdly; believe is matter of high reason (St. Paul).

Now, when I in whatever profanely surrounding I happen to be, I’d speak about religion (say – in the sauna, where I quite frequently meet our priest, or the late lord mayor of Karlsruhe); I always first make clear, that Christianity is foundation and fundament of my life and that I not simply believe, but know. KNOW for the simple reason, that when a dear fried told you something, YOU KNOW and don’t just believe it will or might be so. Jesus Christ is more than a dear friend, so what He told us, we KNOW (that it’s so).

I also make clear, that even when we are obliged to respect every and any religion of the world, (as we are obliged to love all people) there is but one religion right: The one and only one that preaches the resurrection of our saviour Jesus Christ, Son of God and God Himself in the Holy Trinity. As no other religion believes that; they are wrong.

I never insist on talking more about it than what people want to know, but everyone who knows me knows, that I’m am one of that Billion deeply convinced Christians.

Everyday talk must involve Christianity, as Christianity involves any aspect of our everyday life
and consequently is part of everyday language.
How to start a friend asked me: Well, that’s easy; I.e.: “a friend of mine lost his son, but he stands it in Christianity, by knowing, he sees him again in heaven”. That’s realy a good start, as most people now gon on (as my or rather our son died when he was 26 in 1997, you might use this for a start too).

Involvement of God in everything, goes for believers as nonbelievers, as all there is, is evidence of God. We can recognize God in everything there is, everything we do, if our senses are open (Ignatius of Loyola).

You might process the most beautiful and dearest TV in the world. If it lacks it’s receiver, you won’t hear or see anything. If we lack this receiver called God-reason, we neither will see nor hear anything that really counts in our life here and eternal life, even if we are filled up with high reason, beauty, richness, health and the lot, we’d have and be just nothing without God.

Yours
Bruno
Krippenfguren at t-online.de

hopefully my spelling programm found all mistakes

**

 

[Biggie]

**Dear Biggie and the rest of all readers

This too anxious keeping to the subject, is precisely the point on most Christian issues, and it capsules in instead of spreading. I was several times admonished to stick to the topic in all forums here as in Austria, Switzerland, Germany (except my own forum but all Christian themes and Christianity itself involve every single aspect of everything, reaching even into the remotest “nonchristian” thing and thought of life, (such like 2 chicken defending each other out of love .
No, you did for that reason not derail the thread.

All the several meanings of REASON, (there are at least 20 words for “reason” in German) reach deep into Christianity, as there is firstly no brain(spirit)-reason among other creatures but humans, which is most astonishing to atheists, - secondly reason is given by God (there’s no other reason why animals don’t have it) - and thirdly; believe is matter of high reason (St. Paul).

Now, when I in whatever profanely surrounding I happen to be, I’d speak about religion (say – in the sauna, where I quite frequently meet our priest, or the late lord mayor of Karlsruhe); I always first make clear, that Christianity is foundation and fundament of my life and that I not simply believe, but know. KNOW for the simple reason, that when a dear fried told you something, YOU KNOW and don’t just believe it will or might be so. Jesus Christ is more than a dear friend, so what He told us, we KNOW (that it’s so).

I also make clear, that even when we are obliged to respect every and any religion of the world, (as we are obliged to love all people) there is but one religion right: The one and only one that preaches the resurrection of our saviour Jesus Christ, Son of God and God Himself in the Holy Trinity. As no other religion believes that; they are wrong.

I never insist on talking more about it than what people want to know, but everyone who knows me knows, that I’m am one of that Billion deeply convinced Christians.

Everyday talk must involve Christianity, as Christianity involves any aspect of our everyday life
and consequently is part of everyday language.
How to start a friend asked me: Well, that’s easy; I.e.: “a friend of mine lost his son, but he stands it in Christianity, by knowing, he sees him again in heaven”. That’s realy a good start, as most people now gon on (as my or rather our son died when he was 26 in 1997, you might use this for a start too).

Involvement of God in everything, goes for believers as nonbelievers, as all there is, is evidence of God. We can recognize God in everything there is, everything we do, if our senses are open (Ignatius of Loyola).

You might process the most beautiful and dearest TV in the world. If it lacks it’s receiver, you won’t hear or see anything. If we lack this receiver called God-reason, we neither will see nor hear anything that really counts in our life here and eternal life, even if we are filled up with high reason, beauty, richness, health and the lot, we’d have and be just nothing without God.

Yours
Bruno
Krippenfguren at t-online.de

hopefully my spelling programm found all mistakes

**

Bruno, I quite agree with your sentiments and all you have said reflects my belief.

I do think that belief in God is rational - there are reasons for it. But I also take heed of Our Lord’s words - “A faithless generation seeks a sign, but none will be given it save the sign of Jonah.”

Some sound as if by the scientific method, God can be proved or disproved, as if we can sneak up on God and learn something about him he does not wish to reveal. Philosophical argument can take us just so far as well.

The rest is a matter of belief and I think that is deliberately God’s will, that by belief, even in the face of evidence, we may express our love for him.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**Well, the majority of all humans disagree that God can be known through reason.
But do we understand and know by reason how our spirit that’s doubtless there, functions?
Do we understand and know by reason why we live?
Did you ever understand by reason why you exist and know exist as YOU (as a “me” or “I”).

Oh, there are Millions of things reason won’t ever know. The reality of God is just one of them, never the less the most important one of them, for it concerns our eternal life. Existing circumstances (whether it concerns God or the Universe or whatever) don’t care a dime if we believe that or not. If a blind cave fish believes there’s a sun or not, makes no difference to the sun – the cave fish simply wouldn’t live without the sun.

Today in hospital (I was released today) I spoke to a priest I know for years. Evidence to the being of God he said, is – if people think reason can’t hold it (which in some cases might be right – as long as we stick to traceable, empirical, based on experience or comparison reason), they might remember the authority of Jesus Christ, which is reason enough to take contents of Christian believe for granted.
Of course if one doesn’t believe in Jesus Christ, he never will be able to hold believe, yes, h even won’t be allowed to believe (stated among others in Mt 13:15, Mk 4:12, Joh 12:40). Then it’ll be no use to argue with them, for they simply can not believe. It’ll remain their problem.
Coexistence, or rather love to all religions and all people, no matter what they believe though, is founded in Christianity.

Yes, Jesus stopped doing wonders and signs, when He saw, that people where faithless. Matthew 13:58: >And He did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.<Nobody can expect miracles just to make him believe! It would be a most presumptuous disregarding of the almighty God. People who do have faith, see the millions of miracles around us, God does for us.

I don’t really think, that philosophical argument brings us anywhere, as Christianity is far off any Philosophy – it’s the one and only truth – simply not accessible to anyone.

They who deny Christ, will have to wait until they see. Then Jesus will tell them: Matthew 10:32: "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven (or even Mt 25:41)

As faith will have the “vice versa result” this is wonderful message.
In profane language: If you learned how to swim and have faith in you that you can swim, you will have a lot of fun in this lake. If you deny to learn to swim, you’ll drown. It’s as simple as that.

Yours
Bruno-Maria Schulz
Krippenfiguren at t-online.de
**

 

[1holycatholic]

Well, the majority of all humans disagree that God can be known through reason.

That’s not a proof of anything. :coffeeread:

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**oh - for a start it proves Luke 13:24
where we hear:
“…because many, I tell you, will try to enter through the narrow door, and will not be able to.”
most of them disagreed that God can be known through reason **

 

[1holycatholic]

oh - for a start it proves Luke 13:24
where we hear:
“…because many, I tell you, will try to enter through the narrow door, and will not be able to.”
most of them disagreed that God can be known through reason

No, it does not.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**If the majority of all humans says, that God can not be known through reason,
then evidently this majority looks upon faith and believe in God as unreasonable, as most of us where told by members of this community of those, who are convinced, that reason in fact forbids believe.
An old man, convinced atheist, told me recently: Now be reasonable! Who on earth who owns a clear brain and alert senses, could ever be so unreasonable to believe in a God?!

Saint Paul proved for us, that it takes a lot of reason to believe and he added, that the peace of God is higher than all reason the world knows. That’s why it’s obvious, that those who rise reason above all faith, are the clients, who – because they disagree that God can be known through reason, hardly will get into the small door mentioned in Luke 13:24

Reason must and does tell us, that we can’t be, can’t exist without God. So, it’s reason in the meaning of rationality that brings us believe, and irrationality that gets us away from believe. Exactly the opposite from what atheists believe. God didn’t give us reason to find out that God doesn’t exist, but He gave us reason to apprehend even in a very rational way “GOD IS”.

Reason can prove the being of God, if one processes Gods grace to be able to believe.
Reason can prove the inexistence of God, if one tends to Satan’s very “reasonable” arguments.
This way, some minority will get in that door, a great majority will stay out Luke 13:24 **

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

do they even have cause to???

YES

 

[Leela]

Is Reason a thing in itself or just a method of working from first principles?

I don’t know, I haven’t decided. It seems like there is so many points of view out there that it is possible that Reason isn’t so much a position on Truth, but a method.
…

Keep in mind this is an epistemological problem, not a metaphysical one. I’m not for one second suggesting because we cannot know, that God cannot know or that there is no objective truth. I’m just saying by using pure reason, we cannot know it because reason is a method not a position.

Hi mschrank,

As a pragmatist, questions about what a word mean cash out for me as questions about how the word is used? I don’t think of reason as a method or a position on truth. Reason is a word we use to describe good rationales, and truth is a species of good–that which is good by way of belief.

Logic in contrast refers to a specific type of reasoning that follows certain rules that lead to truths. I think of these rules as descriptive of good reasoning rather than as prescriptive.

Can God be known through reason? If God is as Christians say then it would be trivially easy for God to provide convincing evidence of his existence. That so many differ on beliefs about God is not a problem of reason but a problem of ambiguous evidence. Personally, I am unconvined of the claims made by religions.

Best,
Leela

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**

Personally, I am unconvined of the claims made by religions.

And how do you explain this to Jesus when you see Him? Remember Matthew 10:32/33 which goes for everyone, no matter if he/she believed or not.

St. Paul said in Romans 7:23 that it takes a lot of reason to believe and we learn in Phil 4,7, that the peace of God (if you decide to live in God here on this world) is higher than any reason of the world.

But still - it’s up to anyone to decide for or against God.
Don’t you think it’s poor thought to believe only then, when God prooves His existance to us? Nonbelievers wouldn’t believe even when the dead arouse of their graves to tell them - as Luke said in 16:31

So - some have to wit until they see

**

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**of course it ought to be: “So - some have to WAIT until they see.” not wit
But - come to think of it, WIT too is indispensable to believe
even a great lot of wit **

 

[Leela]

And how do you explain this to Jesus when you see Him? Remember Matthew 10:32/33 which goes for everyone, no matter if he/she believed or not.

Bruno, you actually know exactly what it is like not to find the evidence for belief in Jesus compelling. Just consider why you don’t subscibe to Islam?

On virtually every page, the Qur’an declares that it is the perfect word of the Creator of the universe. Muslims believe this as fully as you believe the Bible’s account of itself. There is a vast literature describing the life of Muhammad that, from the Muslim point of view, proves his unique status as the Prophet of God. While Muhammad did not claim to be divine, he claimed to offer the most perfect revelation of God’s will. He also assured his followers that Jesus was not divine (Qur’an 5:71-75; 19:30-38) and that anyone who believed otherwise would spend eternity in hell. Muslims are convinced that Muhammad’s pronouncements on these subjects, as on all others, are infallible.

Why don’t you find these claims convincing? Why don’t you lose any sleep over whether or not you should convert to Islam? Please take a moment to reflect on this. You know exactly what it is like to be an atheist with respect to Islam.

Isn’t it obvious that Muslims are not being honest in their evaluation of the evidence? Isn’t it obvious that anyone who thinks that the Qur’an is the perfect word of the Creator of the universe has not read the book very critically? Isn’t it obvious that Muslims have developed a mode of discourse that is impervious to doubt? That it seeks to preserve dogma, generation after generation, rather than question it?

I’m sure these things are obvious to you. Understand that the way you view Islam is precisely the way every Muslim views Christianity. And it is the way I view all religions.

Best,
Leela

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**Leea, you ask: Just consider why you don’t subscibe to Islam?

Let me give you a sample: Converting to Islam would be for me, as if you and I would convert to the conviction, that the earth is a plate and if we get to it’s edge, we fall down into nowhere.
OK – this is to be proved and seen from outer space. But it’s like converting too, to the life of the pygmies or the happy ogres. Surely they all think they are right.

This forum is to small and it would bore the rest of the readers, if I’d (or any Christian) begin with “why do I believe in Jesus Christ”.

So, If you’re really interested, I offer you (and anyone else too) to write to me personally. I’ll be glad to answer any question as long as you wish!

Let’s answer here just in short:

Yes, I do know exactly what it is like not to find the evidence for belief in Jesus compelling.

Yes Muslims assure that Jesus was not divine; that anyone who believed otherwise would spend eternity in hell. They also assure, that those who kill people on suicide-bombing will get into heaven right away and have so many virgins to please him.
What a wonderful religion – so very peaceful. All trouble in this present world origins from this religion – see Iraq, Afghanistan etc. where our young soldiers die. Women are nothing there. Oh, the world is even forces to reflect on this.

Insult the Pope – no-one cares. Insult Islam, and you’ll be on their list. Oh how peaceful!

No! The way I view Islam is definitely not the way every Muslim views Christianity, though it’s the way you view all religions.

But as you are convinced another way than Christianity, why do you bother about Christianity? **