It is not OUR faith that gives us salvation, it is the Faith OF Christ. He does ALL the work.Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Eze 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
…I had read somewhere that the Catholic view of salvation is to be “freed from sins”. I think that this is the view being presented in the New Testament.
I think this is one of the reasons why I don’t agree with this notion of “once saved always saved” (don’t want that debate in this thread though) is because that would imply “once freed from sin always freed from sin”. And this is clearly not true, because we sin even after becoming Christians.
Is this how the Catholic church views salvation? Is it viewed as a process of being continually freed from sins and becoming more and more like Christ?
Being “freed from sin” is a part of salvation. Those who have believed in Christ, the Scriptures reveal, have “died with Christ” who bore our sins in His body on the cross and died TO SIN (ours) once for all (Rom. 6:7, 10-11). The true believer (it is revealed) is also now, positionally, dead TO SIN (having died with Christ) and alive to God in the resurrected Christ (Col. 3:3). Therefore Paul asks this logical question:Rom 6:1-2 “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?”…
You are correct in your understanding that ‘salvation’ is a ‘saving action’ --that of being freed from sin/s
Actually, redemption and reconciliation are two different things. They’re two separate aspects of salvation. Redemption means to purchase. Christ accomplished and finished the work of redemption on the cross with the shedding of His blood. When one believes in Christ His work of redemption is applied to him in full. The believer is fully redeemed (i.e., fully purchased) by the blood of Christ (1 Pet. 1:18-19; Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:14). Paul writes to the Corinthians:1 Cor 6:20 “For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.”The confusion arises among Protestants when they claim Christ is Saviour …Who saves us from our sins, ignoring that Christ is at the same time. *our Redeemer *whose Incarnation, Death and Resurrection reconciled ALL of fallen mankind -the result of Adam’s disobedience - with God for all time.
No! One can acknowledge Christ and not be saved. He can acknowledge His birth, death and resurrection, but still not “believe” in Him. What we acknowledge, according to the Scriptures, is that one must BELIEVE in Christ to be saved. Believe who He is and what He accomplished for him, once for all, through His death, burial and bodily resurrection.Protestant teaching, simplified, is: once we acknowledge Christ we are saved.
Scripture doesn’t restrict forgiveness to “original sin.” But the one who has believed (a willful act) in Christ is forgiven of ALL sins (see Acts 10:43; 13:38; Col. 1:14) for His name’s sake (1 Jn. 2:12).As Catholics we understand that eternal Salvation has two aspects. Jesus Christ Who is truly God and truly Man redeemed us from sin …this He did without our cooperation…but whch Redemption we acknowledge through Baptism when we are forgiven original sin (the sin of Adam) and any personal sins we had committed (if no longer infants when Baptism was received. We also acknowledge Jesus Christ as our Saviour, but we understand that, though Christ ‘paid’ the debt for our redemption by His Incarnation and Death, He does not save us against our will.
Then Christ bore our sins and died needlessly.He has prepared a place in heaven for each of us, but He knew that we needed constant help to remain in His grace, which we can lose completely through serious (mortal) sin.
The term “saving graces” is not found in Scripture. But rather it is stated that the true believer is saved BY grace (singular) THROUGH faith, a GIFT of God, not as a result of works (Eph. 2:8-9).For this purpose, He established a Church to dispense His saving graces,
Not according to the Scriptures. In Eph. 2:8 it says “For by grace you have been saved through faith…” (cf. 2:5). And in Titus Paul writes: “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness,” (3:5). If salvation is a “continuous work” then the word “saved” is rendered meaningless and salvation is not as the Scriptures say: “by grace through faith,” but instead as a result of “cooperative” works.Our salvation( through Christ’s intercession and merits) is a continuous work.
But salvation is now “freed from sin,” now “reconciled” to God, now “redeemed” (purchased) with His blood, and now “sanctified” in the risen, glorified Christ. As Jesus Himself said:John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."Salvation, in Christ, is the assurance of not ever coming into judgment, having passed out of death into life, eternal - according to the Scriptures, Christ’s own words.We are continually called to repentence following our Baptism because we are weak and inclined to sin.
Yes, in Catholic teaching, sanctification is our justification-and we must be justified to see God. IOW, no sinners enter heaven-our justification must be real, not merely imputed. We must be free from sin-and then “go, and sin no more”. Justification is initially accomplished at Baptism, but then, given the time to live thereafter, we generally must struggle with sin. This is a good struggle, though, whereby the Potter molds us into the image of Christ with our cooperation-a process, like you say, completed when we love God with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength and our neighbor as ourselves.Is this how the Catholic church views salvation? Is it viewed as a process of being continually freed from sins and becoming more and more like Christ?
Your priest is teaching heresy.My Parish is now teaching that you are saved by faith alone. When I questioned my Priest on the change from “Faith and Works” he referenced some agreement with a Lutheran group in England in 1999. Is that agreement now Church Doctrine?
Now that is pure heresy. But, coming from someone who believes that he has the correct interpretation of Scripture without aid from the pillar and foundation of truth, the Church, that is to be expected.Being “freed from sin” is a part of salvation. Those who have believed in Christ, the Scriptures reveal, have “died with Christ” who bore our sins in His body on the cross and died TO SIN (ours) once for all (Rom. 6:7, 10-11). The true believer (it is revealed) is also now, positionally, dead TO SIN (having died with Christ) and alive to God in the resurrected Christ (Col. 3:3). Therefore Paul asks this logical question:Rom 6:1-2 "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?"Actually, redemption and reconciliation are two different things. They’re two separate aspects of salvation. Redemption means to purchase. Christ accomplished and finished the work of redemption on the cross with the shedding of His blood. When one believes in Christ His work of redemption is applied to him in full. The believer is fully redeemed (i.e., fully purchased) by the blood of Christ (1 Pet. 1:18-19; Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:14). Paul writes to the Corinthians:1 Cor 6:20 “For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.”
1 Cor 7:23 "You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men."Redemption is a PART of salvation.
As is reconciliation. Jesus accomplished the work of reconciliation on the cross. When one believes in Christ His work of reconciliation is applied to the believer in full (2 Cor. 5:18; Col. 1:22).No! One can acknowledge Christ and not be saved. He can acknowledge His birth, death and resurrection, but still not “believe” in Him. What we acknowledge, according to the Scriptures, is that one must BELIEVE in Christ to be saved. Believe who He is and what He accomplished for him, once for all, through His death, burial and bodily resurrection.Scripture doesn’t restrict forgiveness to “original sin.” But the one who has believed (a willful act) in Christ is forgiven of ALL sins (see Acts 10:43; 13:38; Col. 1:14) for His name’s sake (1 Jn. 2:12).Then Christ bore our sins and died needlessly.The term “saving graces” is not found in Scripture. But rather it is stated that the true believer is saved BY grace (singular) THROUGH faith, a GIFT of God, not as a result of works (Eph. 2:8-9).Not according to the Scriptures. In Eph. 2:8 it says “For by grace you have been saved through faith…” (cf. 2:5). And in Titus Paul writes: “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness,” (3:5). If salvation is a “continuous work” then the word “saved” is rendered meaningless and salvation is not as the Scriptures say: “by grace through faith,” but instead as a result of “cooperative” works.But salvation is now “freed from sin,” now “reconciled” to God, now “redeemed” (purchased) with His blood, and now “sanctified” in the risen, glorified Christ. As Jesus Himself said:John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."Salvation, in Christ, is the assurance of not ever coming into judgment, having passed out of death into life, eternal - according to the Scriptures, Christ’s own words.
You see, according to the Scriptures, God truly does “save” the one who BELIEVES in Christ (not merely “acknowledges” Him). Catholicism has no concept of the word “saved” (a once for all, completed, Divine act upon personal belief in Christ) because its “salvation” is a process. A future event based on one’s past performance.
Lets make it simple. Jesus died to save us from our sins, that is to free us from the slavery of sin. He did this by offering His life, death and resurrection to the Father out of love for the Father and out of love for us.But, "by reconciling us with God" he opened the gates of heaven. Now, when people die repentant, then can go to heaven, (after purification, if necessary), because God reconciled man back to Himself. He forgave mankind from original sin, that separated man from God. Thus we must ALWAYS, understand the correct meaning of salvation. Exactly as Pope Paul VI defined it, the same as Pope John Paul II uses it, the same as the present Pope uses it, and the same as the General Directory for Catechesis defines it. The same as the Catechism teaches it. The same as St. Gregory explains it. It means primarly to be freed from everything that oppresses man, especially the slavery of sin, and seconarily it means final salvation, if we continue to live in God's grace till we die.Wrong again Moon!Being “freed from sin” is a part of salvation. Those who have believed in Christ, the Scriptures reveal, have “died with Christ” who bore our sins in His body on the cross and died TO SIN (ours) once for all (Rom. 6:7, 10-11). The true believer (it is revealed) is also now, positionally, dead TO SIN (having died with Christ) and alive to God in the resurrected Christ (Col. 3:3). Therefore Paul asks this logical question:Rom 6:1-2 "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?"Actually, redemption and reconciliation are two different things. They’re two separate aspects of salvation. Redemption means to purchase. Christ accomplished and finished the work of redemption on the cross with the shedding of His blood. When one believes in Christ His work of redemption is applied to him in full. The believer is fully redeemed (i.e., fully purchased) by the blood of Christ (1 Pet. 1:18-19; Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:14). Paul writes to the Corinthians:1 Cor 6:20 “For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.”
1 Cor 7:23 "You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men."Redemption is a PART of salvation.
As is reconciliation. Jesus accomplished the work of reconciliation on the cross. When one believes in Christ His work of reconciliation is applied to the believer in full (2 Cor. 5:18; Col. 1:22).No! One can acknowledge Christ and not be saved. He can acknowledge His birth, death and resurrection, but still not “believe” in Him. What we acknowledge, according to the Scriptures, is that one must BELIEVE in Christ to be saved. Believe who He is and what He accomplished for him, once for all, through His death, burial and bodily resurrection.Scripture doesn’t restrict forgiveness to “original sin.” But the one who has believed (a willful act) in Christ is forgiven of ALL sins (see Acts 10:43; 13:38; Col. 1:14) for His name’s sake (1 Jn. 2:12).Then Christ bore our sins and died needlessly.The term “saving graces” is not found in Scripture. But rather it is stated that the true believer is saved BY grace (singular) THROUGH faith, a GIFT of God, not as a result of works (Eph. 2:8-9).Not according to the Scriptures. In Eph. 2:8 it says “For by grace you have been saved through faith…” (cf. 2:5). And in Titus Paul writes: “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness,” (3:5). If salvation is a “continuous work” then the word “saved” is rendered meaningless and salvation is not as the Scriptures say: “by grace through faith,” but instead as a result of “cooperative” works.But salvation is now “freed from sin,” now “reconciled” to God, now “redeemed” (purchased) with His blood, and now “sanctified” in the risen, glorified Christ. As Jesus Himself said:John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."Salvation, in Christ, is the assurance of not ever coming into judgment, having passed out of death into life, eternal - according to the Scriptures, Christ’s own words.
You see, according to the Scriptures, God truly does “save” the one who BELIEVES in Christ (not merely “acknowledges” Him). Catholicism has no concept of the word “saved” (a once for all, completed, Divine act upon personal belief in Christ) because its “salvation” is a process. A future event based on one’s past performance.
But I think most Catholics know that, in order to enter heaven, one must persevere to the end, rather than experience or believe in some one-time salvation or born again event.Now we need to learn exactly what the Church teaches. We need to memorize the definition of salvation, and memorized these first few explanations of salvation from the Catechism. Yes there is more, but we must first get the basics exactly right, or we will be misled by well meaning Protestants and those lost Catholic scholars.
Now lets go back to the very first part of the definition of why God became man:
The Word became flesh for us in order to save us by reconciling us with God.
Notice the second part “by reconciling us with God.”
He reconciled us with God, “in order to save us”. The reconciliation with God is secondary, but it was necessary, “in order to save us”, that is in order to enlighten our minds and free us from the slavery of sin. This saving us also forgives orginal sin.
So saving comes first. It is primary. The Catechism does not say God became flesh to reconcile us, then save us. But to save us, by reconciling us to God.
Saving, liberation from sin, comes first in importance. The name Jesus ( God saves) identifies His primary mission.
Thus, if we die repentant, we can obtain final salvation, because Jesus already reconciled man back to God and opened the gates of heaven.Code:But, "by reconciling us with God" he opened the gates of heaven. Now, when people die repentant, then can go to heaven, (after purification, if necessary), because God reconciled man back to Himself. He forgave mankind from original sin, that separated man from God.
As the Catechism teaches:
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.
Even pagans who never heard of God, if they die repentant can obtain final salvation. But, if they give into the evil of sin and die unrepentant, no one, even believing Christians can obtain final salvation, because if one is unrepentant, he is in rebellion and in opposition to God and would not want to be in heaven with God. He is unrepentant because he believes he is right and God is wrong, (concerning his unrepentant sin), (such as those who die in fornication, or those who die promoting abortion, etc. ) Thus those who know God condemns these evils, or even those who don’t try to find out the truth about what God says about them, and they still believe there is nothing wrong with fornication or abortion, have died in rebellion against God. They would hate to be in heaven with God, because they know God condemns the exact sins that they embraced, loved and justified.
Thus they choose hell. All the faith in the world cannot free them from hell, because they don’t want to be in heaven with God.
Thus even pagans, who never heard of God, who can’t have faith, because they never heard of God, who can’t have the fullness of salvation in this life, because they never heard of Jesus and can’t have the fullness of His saving grace, can still enter heaven if they die repentant of their sins.
We can also express this sacramentally as baptism of desire, and explain this sacramentally.
Thus, in order to be saved, “freed from the slavery of sin”. we need to have faith in Jesus, that is, believe His Gospel, thus Him, when He teaches that he who believes “and is baptized will be saved” and without Him we can do nothing. Thus we need His grace through prayer and the sacraments to continue in this grace (the life of God within us) to keep freed from the slavery, or inclination to sin.
So to be saved, in the correct sense of being liberated from the slavery of sin, does NOT require keeping the commandments, because it is done entirly by Grace, through prayer and the sacraments. BUT, He saves us, “frees us” in order to make it possible to keep the commandments, thus be freed from the misery of sin. So we still have a free will. God’s grace does not MAKE us obey, it makes it possible for us to obey. So, after being “saved”, that is “freed from the slavery of sin”, we can still choose to sin, and died unprentant in rebellion against God, and end up in hell.
Now you can see that in order to justify that one does not have to obey God to enter heaven, one must change the meaning of the word “saved” and “salvation” from meaning primarily “to be freed from the slavery of sin” to meaning “going to heaven” or final salvation.
Protestants don’t know any better. They were taught from birth that “saved” mans going to heaven or assured of going to heaven. Catholic scholars, should know better, but they don’t. Because so many think they don’t need the teachings of the Popes. They think the Popes’ teachings are nice, but not absolutely necessary today. Are they wrong.
Don’t accept the Protestant definition. Never accept the heresy that salvation means primarily to enter heaven. It is heresy, and leads to the slavery of sin, because the Catholic is never absolutely certain of the necessity of grace, and especially the sacraments in living a life from from the constant oppression of sin.Code:Thus we must ALWAYS, understand the correct meaning of salvation. Exactly as Pope Paul VI defined it, the same as Pope John Paul II uses it, the same as the present Pope uses it, and the same as the General Directory for Catechesis defines it. The same as the Catechism teaches it. The same as St. Gregory explains it. It means primarly to be freed from everything that oppresses man, especially the slavery of sin, and seconarily it means final salvation, if we continue to live in God's grace till we die.
Of course they know one must persevere to the end to enter heaven.But I think most Catholics know that, in order to enter heaven, one must persevere to the end, rather than experience or believe in some one-time salvation or born again event.
I have to say that is a very Orthodox understanding my friend. If you are going to talk about salvation the first thing you have to define is what you are being saved from. If you accept the Protestant idea that we are saved from eternal torment you have to accept a characteristically pagan conception of God. Essentially the Protestants teach that God is bound by some necessity to punish us, a necessity that God apparently has no power over, and that in order to satisfy that necessity He had to punish someone of equal stature with Himself. In essence they teach that God (the Father), killed God (the Son), in order to save us from Himself! How ridiculous!Of course they know one must persevere to the end to enter heaven.
But, they don’t know the primary meaning of salvation. They were taught by Catholic scholars that when we say God became man for our salvation, it means God became man, primarily, to make it possible to enter heaven. Because they were taught that salvation means primarily final salvation, or going to heaven. And of course they know correctly that we must persevere to the end, rather than experiance or believe in some one-time salvation.
But the problem is the re-definition of salvation from its primary meaning of liberation from the slavery of sin, to “entering heaven.” Once that false definition is accepted, then we HAVE NO IDEA WHY GOD BECAME MAN.
I repeat, I have not read of a single contemporary Catholic scholar, writer, theologian, scripture scholar, etc., today who teaches that the primary reason God became man, suffered and died and rose again, was to free us from the slavery of sin, to take away our inclination to sin, to liberate us from our compulsions to sin. Not one. I have asked others to prove me wrong, to quote any Catholic scholar who teaches in line with the Popes, and no one has done it yet.
Sure lots of scholars teach that liberation from sin is ONE of the reasons that God became man. But NONE teach it is the primary reason. They always make final salvation, or “entering heaven” or sometimes, “reconciling man back to God” the primary reason God became man.
The reason there is very little evangelization today is because Catholics have been misled by Catholic scholars, and thus can’t even explain the most basic teachings, such as why did God become man. If salvation is not taught correctly, then everthing else disconects. If a Catholic does not know clearly the definition of salvation, then he cannot teach why God became man, he cannot teach the central point of the Gospel, he cannot explain why Jesus founded the Church, he cannot explain the purpose of the mass. He can explain what the mass is, but, he cannot explain the purpose of the mass, which is to continue the work of salvation, because he doesn’t know what salvation is.
Even in this thread Catholics accept blindly **part **of the Protestant meaning of salvation as primarily meaning final salvation, and try to argue scripture, assuming that part of the Protestant defintion is correct. It doesn’t work, because it is contrary to scripture, AND the worst part is that acceptance of that definition nullifies the primary reason for the death and resurrection of Jesus. It makes void the reason God became man. I makes void the reason Jesus founded the Church. It makes void the purpose of the sacraments and especially of the Eucharist and the whole Catholic faith.
We must learn to ignore Catholic scholars, and false Protestant definitions and study the basic teachings of ONLY the Popes on basic issues such as the definition of salvation, and the meaning of the word “Gospel”.
Everybody else gets it wrong. That is because Catholic scholars are not infallible, have never been infallible, and never will be infallible when they teach. They are the source of all heresies in the Church, and today they are absolutely lost on the most basic teachings.
Fortunately many Protestants agree with the Church in that they believe we must repent to escape the fires of hell. That is why Jesus first said “Repent” then He said “and believe the Gospel”. If we don’t repent, there is no point in believing the Gospel.I have to say that is a very Orthodox understanding my friend. If you are going to talk about salvation the first thing you have to define is what you are being saved from. If you accept the Protestant idea that we are saved from eternal torment you have to accept a characteristically pagan conception of God. Essentially the Protestants teach that God is bound by some necessity to punish us, a necessity that God apparently has no power over, and that in order to satisfy that necessity He had to punish someone of equal stature with Himself. In essence they teach that God (the Father), killed God (the Son), in order to save us from Himself! How ridiculous!
God is all loving and all merciful, we have no need to be saved from Him. We have nothing to fear from love. What we did need to be saved from is the power of sin and death and Christ accomplished that through His death and Resurrection. Now if we accept it the wall of separation between us and God has been torn down. Now if we desire we can attain to the same state as our First Father before the fall, and even much more as we proceed “from glory to glory.”
To reduce our salvation to simply making it to heaven is a tragedy and to blame God for our peril, as Protestants seem to do, is an atrocity inspired by the devil. There is a reason the Greek word for the devil means “the slanderer”, because that is precisely what he is and precisely what he has done to God in the darkened minds of many Protestants.
Yours in Christ
Joe
You said earlier that your parish is NOW teaching that you are saved by faith alone.Placido,
Your one sentence answer is not much help without some authoritative references to current Church doctrine.
Thanks
Ken
You and Josephdaniel preach a strange “gospel.” A “gospel” of works and a faith in men. But Jesus said:John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment,* but has** passed out of death into life*.”Fortunately many Protestants agree with the Church in that they believe we must repent to escape the fires of hell. That is why Jesus first said “Repent” then He said “and believe the Gospel”. If we don’t repent, there is no point in believing the Gospel.
If we repent and die repentant, but are not taught the truth, especially about the basics, such as salvation, the definition of the Gospel, etc. they we will end up in heaven, but we will have a miserable life on this earth, because we won’t know and understand God’s teachings, which are taught by the Church, and we will never be certain about the absolute necessity of God’s saving grace in order to be freed from our sins so that we can follow those teachings and we won’t know for certain how to obtain that grace. Without the teachings of Jesus and His savng grace, which come through the Church, we will degenerate almost into animals.
Yes, the Bible contains salvation history: from the fall of Adam to the Person and salvific work of the “Last Adam,” Jesus Christ. Divine salvation is through belief in a Person, not a church or its hierarchal leadership. It’s the gospel of Jesus Christ, not men. The Apostles preached Christ, not a church. The object of faith is not a church but Christ Himself:John 3:14-18 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."The object of salvation faith is Jesus Christ. No one else. Nothing else.The problem is not Protestants. They can’t learn the truth from the bible. It is impossible. The bible is primarily salvation history. The bible says the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. The bible says salvation comes from believing the Gospel that the Church was sent to teach and preach. (Mark 16:15-16)
Or test the teachings of the Popes and all men by what God Himself has revealed in His written Word.What Catholics must do is learn from the Popes.
Are you infallible? There’s no salvation in men, DC, only a Man: The Man Christ Jesus.Why in the world do we trust Catholic scholars who have never been infallible, never will be infallible and are the source of all heresies in the Church, and today can’t even get the definition of salvation right.