What is salvation?

[placido]

No, it’s God saving men from the eternal consequence of sin by GRACE alone through FAITH in Christ alone. That’s not “confused theology” it’s straight up Biblical soteriology.

You said God saved us from the Divine punishment, in other words God saved us from Himself.

placido

 

[moondweller]

You said God saved us from the Divine punishment, in other words God saved us from Himself.

placido

Keep your blasphemy to yourself. Here’s what I said:"No, it’s God saving men from the eternal consequence of sin by GRACE alone through FAITH in Christ alone."The Divine judgment is that the soul that sins shall die. If anything it’s God saving men from themselves, from their sins.

 

[Tomster]

Keep your blasphemy to yourself. Here’s what I said:"No, it’s God saving men from the eternal consequence of sin by GRACE alone through FAITH in Christ alone."The Divine judgment is that the soul that sins shall die. If anything it’s God saving men from themselves, from their sins.

Well, Moon, it’s that time again. This is the next installment in our ongoing catechesis.

Up until now, you have failed miserably. Your failure to respond to so many questions put forward to you indicates that you are unable to defend your position.

Today’s exercise for you will be entitled “Are you eternally secure? or Can you fall from salvation?”

I will give you Scripture verses that defend the Catholic teaching in this regard. It will be up to you to give us your interpretations of the verses defending your position. If you choose to ignore the Catholic position, and not respond, again, we will have to assume that you have thrown in the towel and admitted defeat.

Matthew:
7:21-23
10:22, 28, 33
24:12-13

Mark:
9:43
10:21-23
13:22

Luke:
8:13
12:43-46

John:
12:47-48
15:6

Acts:
13:43,46
20:29-30

Romans:
2:6
8:12-13
11:20-22

1 Corinthians:
3:17
4:5
6:8-9
9:27 thru 10:6
10:11-12
15:1-2

2 Corinthians:
5:20 thru 6:2
11:3
12:21 thru 13:5

Galatians:
5:19-21
6:7-9

Ephesians:
5:5-6

Phillipians:
3:10-16

Colossians:
1:21-23

1 Thessalonians:
4:1-8

2 Thessalonians:
2:13-15
3:6,14

1 Timothy:
4:1
5:15
6:10-19
6:20-21

2 Timothy:
1:15
2:12
2:17
4:10
4:16

Titus:
1:16
3:10

Hebrews:
2:1
3:1,6
3:12-14
4:1
4:11-13
4:14
6:4-6
6:11-12
10:26-27
10:35-38
12:1,3
12:14-17
12:25,29

James:
1:14-16
1:21-22
2:13-14
4:4
5:9

1 Peter:
4:17-18
5:8

2 Peter:
1:9
2:20-22
3:14-17

1 John:
2:24-26
2:28

2 John:
8

3 John:
9-11

Revelation:
2:5
2:10
2:16
2:23
2:26
3:3
3:11
3:21
16:15
22:12
22:19

 

[josephdaniel29]

If it’s the official teaching of the Eastern church, then God help the “Orthodox.”

May God help us all.

 

[moondweller]

May God help us all.

He has! But you must accept His provision by/through faith.

 

[Tomster]

May God help us all.

Agreed josephdaniel, may God help us all.

When considering Moondweller’s bankrupt theology of Once Saved Always Saved my question would be why would Moondweller need God’s help at all? According to him, he is saved and nothing can change that. Again, according to OSAS, he can think and do anything he pleases and none of it will matter because he is SAVED. His belief system essentially says that the Blood of Christ has covered him and that he is still the same sinner he was before he accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior only now the Father does not see his sinfullness. The Father now only sees the Blood of Christ. It is heresy clear through.

 

[josephdaniel29]

Agreed josephdaniel, may God help us all.

When considering Moondweller’s bankrupt theology of Once Saved Always Saved my question would be why would Moondweller need God’s help at all? According to him, he is saved and nothing can change that. Again, according to OSAS, he can think and do anything he pleases and none of it will matter because he is SAVED. His belief system essentially says that the Blood of Christ has covered him and that he is still the same sinner he was before he accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior only now the Father does not see his sinfullness. The Father now only sees the Blood of Christ. It is heresy clear through.

And that thought process is so dangerous because it causes us to not look at sin as we ought to. Sin is that which leads us away from God because through sin we erect a wall between us and His love. I’ll go ahead and quote from the Orthodox theologian Alexander Kalomiros. He says is much better than I could ever hope to.

No, my brothers, unhappily for us, paradise or hell does not depend on God. If it depended on God, we would have nothing to fear. We have nothing to fear from Love. But it does not depend on God. It depends entirely upon us, and this is the whole tragedy. God wants us to be in His image, eternally free. He respects us absolutely. This is love. Without respect, we cannot speak of love. We are men because we are free. If we were not free, we would be clever animals, not men. God will never take back this gift of freedom which renders us what we are. This means that we will always be what we want to be, friends or enemies of God, and there is no changing in this our deepest self. In this life, there are profound or superficial changes in our life, in our character, in our beliefs, but all these changes are only the expression in time of our deepest eternal self. This deep eternal self is eternal, with all the meaning of the word. This is why paradise and hell are also eternal. There is no changing in what we really are. Our temporal characteristics and our history in life depend on many superficial things 'which vanish with death, but our real personality is not superficial and does not depend on changing and vanishing things. It is our real self. It remains with us when we sleep in the grave, and will be our real face in the resurrection. It is eternal.

In Christ
Joe

 

[Tomster]

And that thought process is so dangerous because it causes us to not look at sin as we ought to. Sin is that which leads us away from God because through sin we erect a wall between us and His love. I’ll go ahead and quote from the 20th century Orthodox theologian Alexander Kalomiros. He says is much better than I could ever hope to.

No, my brothers, unhappily for us, paradise or hell does not depend on God. If it depended on God, we would have nothing to fear. We have nothing to fear from Love. But it does not depend on God. It depends entirely upon us, and this is the whole tragedy. God wants us to be in His image, eternally free. He respects us absolutely. This is love. Without respect, we cannot speak of love. We are men because we are free. If we were not free, we would be clever animals, not men. God will never take back this gift of freedom which renders us what we are. This means that we will always be what we want to be, friends or enemies of God, and there is no changing in this our deepest self. In this life, there are profound or superficial changes in our life, in our character, in our beliefs, but all these changes are only the expression in time of our deepest eternal self. This deep eternal self is eternal, with all the meaning of the word. This is why paradise and hell are also eternal. There is no changing in what we really are. Our temporal characteristics and our history in life depend on many superficial things 'which vanish with death, but our real personality is not superficial and does not depend on changing and vanishing things. It is our real self. It remains with us when we sleep in the grave, and will be our real face in the resurrection. It is eternal.

In Christ
Joe

Thanks josephdaniel!

Although he will not admit it, Moondweller has fallen victim to erroneous teachers.

In Romans 8:38-39 we read:

“For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present time nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Jesus Christ our Lord.”

In interpreting this passage, many Evangelical theologians assert that St. Paul teaches that the individual who has been justified cannot fall from his salvation. He is said to be “eternally secure.” Nothing can take away his salvation once he has been imputed with the righteousness of Christ, whether the cause is sin, loss of faith, apostasy, or anything else. Since St. Paul in Romans 8:38-39 appears to argue so strongly and pervasively against any infringement upon salvation, many Evangelicals use this passage frequently to support the notion of eternal security. Several facts of the passage preclude such a teaching, however.

cont.

 

[Tomster]

josephdaniel,

First, of the ten items St. Paul says cannot separate us from the love of God, all of them, without exception, are forces external to the individual. Death and life, angels and demons, present and future, powers, height and depth, nor any creature, are things that God has created and over which the individual has no control. He cannot control whether he is born or whether he will die; he cannot control acts time nor the cosmos; he cannot control any other created being external to himself. In Romans 8:35 St. Paul adds seven other items: trouble, hardship, persecution, famine, nakedness, danger, and sword. These also are external forces, and since St. Paul suffered most of them himself, thus he can testify that none of them stopped Christ from loving him. In other words, God has made the process of salvation so secure that he will allow no external force to disrupt its progress and completion. The individual has the guarantee, speaking colloquially, that God will not “pull the rug out from under him” by failing to provide the grace of salvation. God is not a capricious tyrant who offers salvation one day, but decides the next day to withdraw the offer, nor will he allow anything in the universe to curtail his plan.

Yet, and this is absolutely KEY to this whole discussion, St. Paul, while portraying God as immovable, does NOT INCLUDE INTERNAL FORCES - forces within the individual - among those things that cannot separate the individual from the love of God. Moreover, St. Paul does not include things such as fornication, adultery, idolatry, and stealing, in the list of Romans 8:38-39 (i.e. St. Paul does not say, “Neither fornication, nor adultery, idolatry, nor stealing . . . can separate us from the love of God”) simply because he has stated previously in passages like 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:21, and Ephesians 5:5 that these sins are the very reason one could lose their salvation. God is faithful and will let no external force disrupt the salvation process, but whether the individiual who claims to follow God will himself continue to be faithful is not a question St. Paul addresses in Romans 8:38-39.

It is clear from the surrounding passages that St. Paul does not believe that the individual is immune from falling away.

 

[placido]

Keep your blasphemy to yourself. Here’s what I said:

“No, it’s God saving men from the eternal consequence of sin by GRACE alone through FAITH in Christ alone.”
​

No, that is not what you said. here is what happened:

Post #37
"josephdaniel29:

God is all loving and all merciful, we have no need to be saved from Him.

Your response in post # 41:

You need to be saved from Divine judgment concerning sin.

That means God saves us from Himself.

The Divine judgment is that the soul that sins shall die. If anything it’s God saving men from themselves, from their sins.

Make up your mind: does God save men from Divine judgement (your post #41) or from themselves (your post #62)?

placido​

 

[Tomster]

No, that is not what you said. here is what happened:

Post #37

Your response in post # 41:

That means God saves us from Himself.

Make up your mind: does God save men from Divine judgement (your post #41) or from themselves (your post #62)?

placido

What is interesting here is that should someone who has believed they are saved, sin,
would they be judged at the end of their life? Were they saved to begin with? How do they know, infallibly, that they were saved in the first palce.

This situation reminds me of the time Jimmy Swaggart repented for his infidelity against his wife. Why did Rev. Swaggart feel the need to repent of his sin against God and his wife when he proclaimed himself saved before the infidelity took place? I suppose his claiming to be saved in the first place “didn’t take” as some Fundamentalists are wont to say. So much for eternal security.

 

[placido]

What is interesting here is that should someone who has believed they are saved, sin,
would they be judged at the end of their life? Were they saved to begin with? How do they know, infallibly, that they were saved in the first palce.

They ignore Matthew 7:21-23 at their own risk: "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. 11 Depart from me, you evildoers.’ "
You see, they were so sure they are saved, only to find out they were not saved after all.

placido

 

[Tomster]

They ignore Matthew 7:21-23 at their own risk: "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. 11 Depart from me, you evildoers.’ "
You see, they were so sure they are saved, only to find out they were not saved after all.

placido

I think the words of St. Paul apply: “Take heed, lest ye fall.”

 

[Janina_Mousley]

I had read somewhere that the Catholic view of salvation is to be “freed from sins”. I think that this is the view being presented in the New Testament.

I think this is one of the reasons why I don’t agree with this notion of “once saved always saved” (don’t want that debate in this thread though) is because that would imply “once freed from sin always freed from sin”. And this is clearly not true, because we sin even after becoming Christians.

Is this how the Catholic church views salvation? Is it viewed as a process of being continually freed from sins and becoming more and more like Christ?

===================================================================
Though I was interested in comments received from moondweller regarding my answer to another Catholic, WesleyF,who wanted to know the Catholic position regarding Salvation. I do not intend to debate with anyone who quotes a sentence or two from Scripture trying to prove “Faith alone” while ignoring the rest of the Scriptural passages preceding or following.
But I will briefly address one quote moondweller has given to illustrate my meaning.​

moondweller :The true believer (it is revealed) is also now, positionally, dead TO SIN (having died with Christ) and alive to God in the resurrected Christ (Col. 3:3).​

“Positionally, dead to sin” by this is meant???
The full passage from which Col. 3 :3 (below) is quoted, shows that we must change our lives after our Baptism (- having died with Christ, and risen with him). It does not mean that we no longer sin, or cannot sin, or that our personal salvation is never at risk. We must be –as Christ- Who was ‘obedient unto Death. At our Baptism, when our old self ‘died’, Christ resurrected our bodies and souls, clothing us, as it were, with ’a most beautiful spiritual garment of grace His grace -a sharing in his own life- is the ‘garment’’ which we must wear to the heavenly banquet prepared by Him - for us- for all eternity:for nothing unclean (sinful) may enter into heaven
Paul urges the Baptised to live holy lives:
*Therefore, if you be risen with Christ, seek the things that are above: where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God:2 Mind the things that are above, not the things that are on the earth. For you are dead, and your life is hidden with Christ in God… Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth: fornication, uncleanness, lust, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is the service of idols… *But now put you also all away: anger, indignation, malice, blasphemy, filthy speech out of your mouth. Lie not one to another: stripping yourselves of the old man with his deeds. And putting on the new, him who is renewed unto knowledge, *according to the image of him, who created him…Put ye on, therefore, as the elect of God, holy, and beloved, the bowels of mercy, benignity, humility, modesty, patience: Bearing with one another, and forgiving one another…as the Lord hath forgiven you, so do you also. But above all these things have charity, which is the bond of perfection: (Colossians 3: 1-14)
*
Recognising our human, sinful inclinations, Paul continues: *Let not sin, therefore, reign in your mortal body, so as to obey the lusts thereof.Neither yield ye your members as instruments of iniquity unto sin: but present yourselves to God as those that are alive from the dead: and your members as instruments of justice unto God… (Rom. 6:12,13)

Jesus was announced as our Saviour before his conception. The angel Gabriel told the Virgin Mary that her Son, the Son of the most High would be called ‘Jesus’-which means Saviour. At his birth, the angels glorified God because a Saviour had been born. At the temple when the infant Jesus was presented, Simeon prayed: f*or my eyes have seen your salvation, which you have prepared in the presence of all peoples, a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel.’ … St Luke chaps 1+ 2 *

To re iterate my original answer: In a general way, salvation means ‘the saving of, from or for’.
Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity became man to redeem and save us.
Christ is our Redeemer.He completely paid ‘the debt’ of the sin we inherited from Adam by His Incarnation, Suffering and Death, which reconciled man with God…
He is also our Saviour. He has saved us from sin. He is also “the Way, the Truth and the Life’ for Christians. He is present with us, forgiving sins, teaching and guiding us to an everlasting happiness with God.
Christ’s Resurrection is the principle object of our Faith, and we believe Christ’s work of Salvation continues.

 

[Janina_Mousley]

I had read somewhere that the Catholic view of salvation is to be “freed from sins”. I think that this is the view being presented in the New Testament.

---

A comparison of Moses with Jesus gives a better understanding of Redemption and Salvation.
Moses, a prefigurement of Jesus, was commanded by God to rescue (or redeem) the people of Israel from their slavery to the Egyptians. God promised Israel a Land, and made a Covenant with them (He is their God and they are his people). The males of Israel were to be marked with circumcision and ALL the Israelites were to keep his Commandments. Their disobedience, after their release from Egypt, bought death at times, as well as more slavery. Some never saw or lived in the ‘promised land.” Yet, they had already been ‘redeemed’ by Moses from the Egyptians. Their redemption was accomplished, once, for all, and now they are in the desert and continue, for many centuries, as God’s chosen people in the promised land. They are the ‘saved” from the nations, they will be taught , guided and protected by God Himself, but must respond by worshipping Him alone, and be obedient to His Commandments
.
Jesus Christ REDEEMED us from ‘the slavery ‘of sin - once, for all. His Incarnation and Death paid just recompense to Almighty God for the sin of Adam which had separated mankind from God (this sin we call Original sin).
Christ is likened to the lamb that was killed and whose blood was splattered on the doorways of Israelite homes to protect them – preserving them from death - on the night of the Passover). Christ’s death was our Redemption. We recognise this redemption by receiving Baptism-once only.​

At the last Supper in the presence of his Apostles who were the foundation of his Church, Jesus - true God and true Man- established an everlasting New Covenant between God and mankind: a covenant sealed in his blood- which he shed a few hours later. Now all people are God’s chosen, bound by this new covenant. He alone is the Saviour. He has shown us **THE WAY **to live our lives, he has taught us **THE TRUTH *regarding our relationship with God and with other people and he gives us a share in His LIFE through the Sacraments he established. God expected his people in earlier times, to be faithful to him, as we who are baptised must also acknowledge his authority by following his teachings and commandments. Just as Almighty God, in the desert was the Saviour (many times) of the Israelites on the way to the land he had promised, so Jesus Christ is the Saviour who obtained for us the forgiveness of sins and continues his saving work through His Church. We respond to this salvation by the way we live our lives.
St Paul tells us: * And I do all things for the gospel’s sake: that I may be made partaker thereof. Know you not that they who run in the race, all run indeed, but one receiveth the prize? So run that you may obtain. And every one that striveth for the mastery refraineth himself from all things: and they indeed that they may receive a corruptible crown: but we an incorruptible one. I, therefore, so run, not as at an uncertainty: I so fight, not as one beating the air: But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest, perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become reprobate.” (1 Corinthians 9: 23-27)

Since our sinfulness does not stop after we are Baptised, IT IS NO ACCIDENT that on the night of his Resurrection – after showing his wounds-the proof he had risen from the dead, Jesus gave his Apostles the authority to forgive sins.
**Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together for fear of the Jews: Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them; Peace be to you. And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands, and his side. The disciples, therefore, were glad, when they saw the Lord. He said therefore to them again; Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them, and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost: *Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose you shall retain, they are retained.” (St John 20 :19-23)
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the Old Testament, the living God was present with his People (after He redeemed them from slavery) in the form of a cloud, or a pillar of fire, and sometimes thunder and lightning, He taught them through the Commandments, strengthening them in times of crisis, forgiving their unbelief and their failures. He quenched their thirst, fed them, protected them from danger, warned and counselled them through His prophets, and showed patience with their stubbornness and rebellion.
Since His Resurrection, the living Christ, our Saviour, is present in His Body, the Church, and has promised to be us until the end of time, giving us His grace (life), strength and forgiveness which we continually need, just like the ‘chosen People’ in the Old Testament.
In various Epistles the writers exhort all Christians to be faithful to Christ’s teachings and to live good moral lives.
.
“And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous. And he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”–1 John 2:1, 2

 

[serverrob]

Now that is pure heresy. But, coming from someone who believes that he has the correct interpretation of Scripture without aid from the pillar and foundation of truth, the Church, that is to be expected.

Your own interpretation has only 50% ground, assuming you are referring to

1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

The pillar and ground of truth can be grammatically true to be referring to “the church” or “God”.
I personally don’t think the Bible is open to interpretation [2Pe 1:20] so if “God” is it, it must be that the Bible, the word of God, supersedes church doctrine, which seems to harmonize with the rest of the Bible.
The problem we have here, though, is somewhat typical everywhere when it comes to “experts”. Even in the face of substantial evidence to show them their mistakes, they will still stand their original ground. Someday soon, very soon, that ground will fall out form under them when it comes to Biblical Truth.
Don’t look to church doctrine for “what is salvation”. Look through the Bible and pray for wisdom, always be ready to be corrected (from the Bible).

 

[serverrob]

Keep your blasphemy to yourself. Here’s what I said:"No, it’s God saving men from the eternal consequence of sin by GRACE alone through FAITH in Christ alone."The Divine judgment is that the soul that sins shall die. If anything it’s God saving men from themselves, from their sins.

Check your Bible again, the Word says FAITH [OF] Christ, not faith in Christ. And if your translation says faith “in” Christ, you better get a Greek dictionary and ask why a preposition that can only mean “of” was translated as “in”.
Big difference, because it is Christ’s work that saves us by election, not our desperately wicked hearts [Jer 17:9] that thinks we can contribute to our salvation.

 

[placido]

Your own interpretation has only 50% ground, assuming you are referring to The pillar and ground of truth can be grammatically true to be referring to “the church” or “God”.

“But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.”
Grammatically that can only refer to the household/church as the pillar and foundation of truth.
Yes, that would inconvenience some people.

I personally don’t think the Bible is open to interpretation [2Pe 1:20] so if “God” is it, it must be that the Bible, the word of God, supersedes church doctrine, which seems to harmonize with the rest of the Bible.

Oh no! You think the Bible is not open for interpretation, but then, you go right ahead and try to interpret the Bible for us.

Don’t look to church doctrine for “what is salvation” …

In other words … “rather look to Serverrob for what is salvation”, eh?

Look through the Bible and pray for wisdom, always be ready to be corrected (from the Bible).

“Don’t look to church doctrine” but … “always be ready to be corrected” (by Serverrob) “from the Bible”.
So, Serverrob replaces the church?

placido

 

[dcdurel]

Some on this thread referrenced this site

catechesisofthepopes.wikispaces.com/

I did not look at it till now.

It has the teachings of the Popes JPII and Benedict XVI.

It is excellent. It explains the teachings in the Catechism.

One of the best sites ever.

It explains again the teachings on salvation.

Here is one part on Jesus Christ, Son of God.

"In treating of evil, and particularly of sin, in the previous reflections, we were preparing the way for the present series on Jesus Christ, the Savior. Salvation means liberation from evil, especially from sin. The revelation contained in Sacred Scripture, beginning with the Protoevangelium (Gen 3:15), opens us to the truth that only God can free us from sin and from all the present evil of human existence. While revealing himself as Creator of the world and its guiding Providence, God at the same time reveals himself as Savior, as the one who frees from evil, in particular from sin caused by the free will of the creature. This is the apex of the creative project put into effect by divine Providence, in which the world (cosmology), the human race (anthropology) and God the Savior (soteriology) are closely linked.

As the Second Vatican Council recalls, Christians believe that the world “has been created and sustained by the love of its maker, that it has been freed from the slavery of sin by Christ, who was crucified and rose again…” (GS 2).

Considered etymologically, the name “Jesus” means “Yahweh sets free,” saves, helps. Before the Babylonian captivity it was expressed in the form “Jehosua,” a theophoric name which contains the root of the most holy name of Yahweh. After the exile in Babylon it took the abbreviated form “Jeshua,” which the Septuagint translation transcribed as “Jesoûs,” from which comes the English “Jesus.”

This site is excellent. Highly recommended to learn exactly what the Church teaches about Sin, Jesus and salvation.