What is sharia law?

[Sister_Amy]

Ok, I am only going to flag one thing…and only one, because the idea that torture really does not work is true…

Any man siding with al Quida or any terrorist group is not an “enemy combatant” they are an enemy. I need no trial or other information for that.

The problem is that al-Qaeda is not a uniformed militia. Random people are (or at least were) being picked up just for being in Pakistan/Afghanistan and turned in for money. I mean, if you’re Egyptian or something and visiting Pakistan, nobody really knows you so they decide they’ll give you to the Americans for money calling you an al-Qaeda operative, then you get shipped off to a prison camp.

No trial?

That’s why I think there should be trials. If someone is tried and found guilty then by all means, punish him. But the punishment without a trial is a fundamental violation of the American justice system, in my opinion.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I was doing some research on the Constitution of Medina compaired to the US laws. It is really not even close. The concept of freedom of religion in America is different then what is allowed for here. In America, we are free from a CHurch sponsored government and from a Government sponsored faith. That is not the case in this.

According to some scholars, this was just an updated form of a previous Medinan document that allowed most of the same provisions.

Of course they’re different. My point was really that the Founding Fathers looked at the Medina Constitution and the Medina treaty when drafting the American one, and so it incorporates some of the same ideas.

Sorry if I implied anything more than that. (I think I might have, and if I did, I was wrong.)

And still, I don’t have any proof. It’s something that one of my teachers told me in a class I just took but I don’t have a text or something to point you towards.

 

[Rocky]

What is your source for saying the Medina Constitution is the basis for the Founding Fathers’ Constitution?

 

[ralphinal]

Of course they’re different. My point was really that the Founding Fathers looked at the Medina Constitution and the Medina treaty when drafting the American one, and so it incorporates some of the same ideas.

Sorry if I implied anything more than that. (I think I might have, and if I did, I was wrong.)

And still, I don’t have any proof. It’s something that one of my teachers told me in a class I just took but I don’t have a text or something to point you towards.

I’ve been looking, too. I cannot find anything on that. On the one hand, it would not surprise me if they had. Those guys were pretty well read. However, overall it is unlikely. The vast majority of American Code of LAw was based on English Common Law and European Age of Enlightenment philosophy.

I will keep looking.

 

[ralphinal]

The problem is that al-Qaeda is not a uniformed militia. Random people are (or at least were) being picked up just for being in Pakistan/Afghanistan and turned in for money. I mean, if you’re Egyptian or something and visiting Pakistan, nobody really knows you so they decide they’ll give you to the Americans for money calling you an al-Qaeda operative, then you get shipped off to a prison camp.

No trial?

That’s why I think there should be trials. If someone is tried and found guilty then by all means, punish him. But the punishment without a trial is a fundamental violation of the American justice system, in my opinion.

I think I should have been more clear. The dude with the gun is busted. The guy planting bombs is busted.

Some random cat is another story. I am talking about the ones who were actively fighting

 

[Booklover]

Actually, Booklover, let me tell you something, k?

The Muslims had gathered a small force of men to take a caravan (which was mostly their stuff anyway) while they were at war with the Quraysh. You might know that already, so you can probably accept it. The Quraysh had gathered a larger army to attack the Muslims at that time.

So the Muslims actually captured two boys who were from the caravan, at a well. And they thought the boys were from the army, and not the caravan, but when they asked them, the boys said they were from the caravan. The Muslims didn’t believe them, so they tortured them and interrogated them until the boys admitted that they were from the army.

You see, under torture, a person will say whatever the interrogator wants him to say, to get the torture to stop–that’s why it’s totally useless in interrogation!

So then the boys had admitted that they were from the army and the Muslims then took them to the Prophet Muhammad (saws), who got very angry at them. He told them that first the boys told the truth, and they (the Muslims) had beat and tortured them. But then, when the boys lied, the Muslims had stopped beating/torturing them! So wrong! Such injustice! And he scolded them for it.

That’s how we know that torture isn’t allowed in Islam.

And that is pretty much exactly what the USA is doing. Capturing alleged “enemy combatants” and torturing them.

What about Muhammad’s of Kinana to obtain his treasure?

Vickie

 

[chrisse]

The Vatican on Islamic Finance:

Vatican Says Islamic Finance May Help Western Banks in Crisis

Sister Amy, did you go to the link to the Vatican that the article you have linked to actually linked from to get that nonsense?

Guys, I’m rushing out the door to go to work; however I did and translated it from Italian into English using google translate. From a quick perusal and search, it said nothing about islamic finance and was actually on

“Nobody leaves dall’orrenda win temptation of violence” in Northern Ireland: is the appeal launched by Benedict XVI at the general audience on Wednesday morning, March 11, in piazza San Pietro.

 I have learned with deep sorrow the news of the assassination of two young British soldiers and a police officer in Northern Ireland. While I assure my spiritual closeness to the families of victims and wounded, I express the strongest condemnation of these abhorrent acts of terrorism, which, in addition to desecrate human life put in danger the political process underway in Northern Ireland and threaten to extinguish the many hopes raised by it in the region and throughout the world. I pray the Lord to let anyone win dall'orrenda temptation of violence, but each multiply efforts to continue building through the patience of dialogue, a peaceful, just and reconciled.

 

[Booklover]

I was doing some research on the Constitution of Medina compaired to the US laws. It is really not even close. The concept of freedom of religion in America is different then what is allowed for here. In America, we are free from a CHurch sponsored government and from a Government sponsored faith. That is not the case in this.

According to some scholars, this was just an updated form of a previous Medinan document that allowed most of the same provisions.

Full text of the Medina constitution

Where is the justice in this?

1. No believer will help an un-believer against a believer.
2. Believers are all friends to each other to the exclusion of all others.

Vickie

 

[Sister_Amy]

I’ve been looking, too. I cannot find anything on that. On the one hand, it would not surprise me if they had. Those guys were pretty well read. However, overall it is unlikely. The vast majority of American Code of LAw was based on English Common Law and European Age of Enlightenment philosophy.

I will keep looking.

Thomas Jefferson had a copy of the Qur’an. It’s pretty well-known that those guys knew about Islam, more than average joes today, definitely.

Anyway, I think anything good in Europe came from interaction with Muslims during the crusades.

 

[Sister_Amy]

What about Muhammad’s of Kinana to obtain his treasure?

Vickie

Quote me an Islamic source. I never heard of Kinana.

 

[ralphinal]

Thomas Jefferson had a copy of the Qur’an. It’s pretty well-known that those guys knew about Islam, more than average joes today, definitely.

Anyway, I think anything good in Europe came from interaction with Muslims during the crusades.

Oh, now that IS funny. We must have taken the only copies of it all…

I do not see much of the concept of supply and demand, invisible hand, Deism and all that stuff in Islam.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sister Amy, did you go to the link to the Vatican that the article you have linked to actually linked from to get that nonsense?

Guys, I’m rushing out the door to go to work; however I did and translated it from Italian into English using google translate. From a quick perusal and search, it said nothing about islamic finance and was actually on

Nope, because I don’t speak/read Italian. I quoted an article from Bloomberg–if you find it inaccurate, correct them. Not me.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Oh, now that IS funny. We must have taken the only copies of it all…

I do not see much of the concept of supply and demand, invisible hand, Deism and all that stuff in Islam.

I said ‘good,’ didn’t I? Anyway, economics is not something I know a lot about.

I’m not sure what you’re talking about that’s funny. I obviously didn’t get the joke.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Full text of the Medina constitution

Where is the justice in this?

1. No believer will help an un-believer against a believer.
2. Believers are all friends to each other to the exclusion of all others.

Vickie

I like these two:

1. Those Jews who follow the Believers will be helped and will be treated with equality. (Social, legal and economic equality is promised to all loyal citizens of the State).
2. No Jew will be wronged for being a Jew.

 

[ralphinal]

I said ‘good,’ didn’t I? Anyway, economics is not something I know a lot about.

I’m not sure what you’re talking about that’s funny. I obviously didn’t get the joke.

Because it seems like the height of Islamic “civilization” was in that era. Perhaps we took all the good stuff that let Muslims prosper and left them with nothing so that they regressed.

Some of that stuff in economics IS good. It is when people get involved that it goes south…

 

[Booklover]

Quote me an Islamic source. I never heard of Kinana.

Try Ibn Ishaq’s “Sirat Rasulallah”,page 515

Vickie

 

[Sister_Amy]

Try Ibn Ishaq’s “Sirat Rasulallah”,page 515

Vickie

Ibn Ishaaq’s biography of the Prophet saws was lost. It doesn’t exist as a book anymore. I wonder what it is you’re referring to, then.

 

[ralphinal]

I am surprised that no one has pointed out that this was during his Medina period, the time when he was more peaceful/willing to work with others.

Shame on you!!!

 

[jakasaki]

Quote me an Islamic source. I never heard of Kinana.

Biography
He had two brothers — al-Rabi and Sallam. Kinana is said to have urged Muhammad to give up the custom during prayer of turning his face toward Mecca (“Qiblah”) in favor of Jerusalem, as had been the custom in Islam at first. After the expulsion of the Banu al-Nadir, of which tribe he was a member, he and his family retired to Khaibar, where they possessed a castle called Qamus.

Ibn Hisham writes about Kinana ibn al-Rabi,

Kinana al-Rabi, who had the custody of the treasure of Banu Nadir, was brought to the apostle who asked him about it. He denied that he knew where it was. A Jew came (Tabari says “was brought”), to the apostle and said that he had seen Kinana going round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle said to Kinana, “Do you know that if we find you have it I shall kill you?” He said “Yes”. The apostle gave orders that the ruin was to be excavated and some of the treasure was found. When he asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr Al-Awwam, “Torture him until you extract what he has.” So he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head, in revenge for his brother Mahmud

Al-Mubarakpuri maintains that al-Rabi was bound by agreements between Muhammad and Khaybar to not conceal anything from the Muslims. He was exceuted, al-Mubarakpuri concludes, for breaching the agreement.

Montgomery Watt supports the view that he was executed for concealing the treasure.

Shibli Nomani, however, argues that Kinana was put to death because he had killed Mahmud, the brother of Muhammad b. Maslama. Nomani also casts doubt on the accuraccy of the story due to its sources (see section below).

Authenticity
The story of al-Rabi narrated by Ibn Hisham has been taken from Ibn Ishaq. Ibn Ishaq, however, doesn’t specify any source for this story. According to Nomani, tradionists have stated that Ibn Ishaq probably borrowed this story from the contemporary descendents of al-Rabi’s tribe.

Nomani also casts doubt on the story on the basis of its inconsistency with Muhammad’s other actions. He doubts Muhammad would have tortured al-Rabi, as he forgave the Jewess Rayhana bint Amr ibn Khunafa after the she tried to poison him.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinana

 

[Sister_Amy]

I am surprised that no one has pointed out that this was during his Medina period, the time when he was more peaceful/willing to work with others.

Shame on you!!!

Actually, Ralph, the Medina period is when people accuse Muhammad of the worst crimes. They say he was peaceful in Mecca while being persecuted, and then the worst slanders are from the Medina period, which is when the permission and then obligation to fight came down.