What is sharia law?

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No end to my amusement here. The best excuse you have for a source is Wikipedia? And even Wikipedia tells you that the report isn’t authentic.

This is why you need to be especially careful when reading books of Seerah. Many reports are weak–not authenticated. It’s not like hadith where reports have been meticulously verified for authenticity. Many seerah reports are weak. Better then to study with a real teacher (like I just finished doing, actually) who can explain which reports are weak and which are strong.
 
Sister_Amy said:
Actually, Ralph, the Medina period is when people accuse Muhammad of the worst crimes. They say he was peaceful in Mecca while being persecuted, and then the worst slanders are from the Medina period, which is when the permission and then obligation to fight came down.
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Oops. I need to get my rhetoric down. Sorry about that
 
Sister_Amy said:
Thomas Jefferson had a copy of the Qur’an. It’s pretty well-known that those guys knew about Islam, more than average joes today, definitely.

Anyway, I think anything good in Europe came from interaction with Muslims during the crusades. 😉
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Of course by the same logic one could say that everything good in middle eastern culture came from Greek, Roman and Persian culture that was absorbed by the Muslims. The conquest of north Africa and the Middle East pushed those of the Eastern Empire into Western Europe and they brought their ancient knowledge.

The Muslims conquered many great civilizations including Arabia. What is tragic is that northern Africa and Central Asia who hosted civilizations who had been advanced since the beginning of human civilization are now struggling to keep up socially, politically despite the fact that some of these nations are still quiet wealthy.
 
Sister_Amy said:
To say that because a person doesn’t understand Arabic therefore he doesn’t understand Shari’ah is a pretty lame cop-out for Sam to make against me. Being an Arabic speaker does not qualify him in Islamic law.

Come on, how many people speak English, but would you appoint them all as your lawyer? Or would you appoint someone as a lawyer who had actually studied the law?

And because I’ve actually been studying Shari’ah, that’s where I’m giving you my opinions from. If Sam thinks that Saudi Arabia is properly implementing Shari’ah, then he’s a fool–in the matters both of Shari’ah and Saudi Law.

While I certainly think that Saudi Arabia probably has the closest to proper implementation of Shari’ah among the Muslim countries, the fact is that the courts of the USA probably do a better job of implementing Shari’ah than Saudis and they aren’t even Muslim!
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Funny, Sister Amy, but that’s the same argument we get from muslims defending Islam - we can’t speak Arabic so we can’t understand the text fully.

However, it is correct. The doctrine is absolutely worse in Arabic - it is severely sanitised (believe it or not) in English (and possibly other Western languages).
 
Sister_Amy said:
Nope, because I don’t speak/read Italian. I quoted an article from Bloomberg–if you find it inaccurate, correct them. Not me.
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Well, that just further reduces your credibility on here, Sister Amy. The linked article to the Vatican had NOTHING to do with the newspaper article.

AND, it is as simple as copying the Vatican article as it appears in Italian, going to google translate, and translating it into English.

So, I guess lazy - which sums up your arguments on here : without credibility and lazy.

😃
 
Sister_Amy said:
Ibn Ishaaq’s biography of the Prophet saws was lost. It doesn’t exist as a book anymore. I wonder what it is you’re referring to, then.
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Have you ever heard of “google”? :rolleyes: Here’s a whole that deals with what you claim is “lost”. What’s the matter, are you afraid of the truth?

Vickie
 
rtconstant said:
Of course by the same logic one could say that everything good in middle eastern culture came from Greek, Roman and Persian culture that was absorbed by the Muslims. The conquest of north Africa and the Middle East pushed those of the Eastern Empire into Western Europe and they brought their ancient knowledge.

The Muslims conquered many great civilizations including Arabia. What is tragic is that northern Africa and Central Asia who hosted civilizations who had been advanced since the beginning of human civilization are now struggling to keep up socially, politically despite the fact that some of these nations are still quiet wealthy.
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Yes… colonization tends to cause that sort of problem–robbing a people of their culture and trying to impose something else on them.
 
chrisse said:
Funny, Sister Amy, but that’s the same argument we get from muslims defending Islam - we can’t speak Arabic so we can’t understand the text fully.

However, it is correct. The doctrine is absolutely worse in Arabic - it is severely sanitised (believe it or not) in English (and possibly other Western languages).
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Nope. My teachers are coming from Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Egypt. They aren’t watering anything down. Not that you could tell the difference.
 
chrisse said:
Well, that just further reduces your credibility on here, Sister Amy. The linked article to the Vatican had NOTHING to do with the newspaper article.

AND, it is as simple as copying the Vatican article as it appears in Italian, going to google translate, and translating it into English.

So, I guess lazy - which sums up your arguments on here : without credibility and lazy.

😃
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I quoted an article from Bloomberg. Not the Vatican. Hello? Maybe Bloomberg linked to the wrong Vatican article. Maybe you should stick with accusing them of lying. Not me.

I wonder if you think people should all translate their sources from Arabic when they attack Islam? On Google. Hehe. Whatever.
 
Booklover said:
Have you ever heard of “google”? :rolleyes: Here’s a whole that deals with what you claim is “lost”. What’s the matter, are you afraid of the truth?

Vickie
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Google? What? Hmm… sounds familiar…

Seriously, Vickie, you should learn to start doing your homework. If you go click on these links on that page that google gives you, you’ll read the following:

“Ibn Isḥaq wrote several works, none of which survive.”

I quoted that from the second link on Google’s list.
 
=Sister Amy;4933199]Google? What? Hmm… sounds familiar…

Seriously, Vickie, you should learn to start doing your homework. If you go click on these links on that page that google gives you, you’ll read the following:

“Ibn Isḥaq wrote several works, none of which survive.”

I quoted that from the second link on Google’s list.
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As usual because it’s not to your advantage, you didn’t go any further. Here’s a quote from one of them:
The present life of Muhammad is by the earliest biographer whose work has survived. Ibn Ishaq was born in Medina about eighty-five years after the hijra (AH 85) and died in Baghdad in AH 151. No copy of Ibn Ishaq’s biography in its original form is now in existence, but it was extensively quarried by Ibn Hisharn (died AH 213 or 218). Much of the material used was left in the original words and in whole sections, so that Ibn Hisham’s work can best be described as an edited version of the original biography, with interpolations by the editor.
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Vickie
 
Booklover said:
As usual because it’s not to your advantage, you didn’t go any further. Here’s a quote from one of them:

Vickie
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Is that why I didn’t go further? I thought it was because if I said anything more you’d get confused. :cool:

You told me to go to a book and look on page 515–that’s a pretty much useless instruction, if you’re talking about a book that was (a) written some 13 centuries ago, (b) in another language, and most importantly (c) no longer in existence.

If you wanted me to go look in Ibn Hisham’s book, that would be something difference, and I would have replied differently.

But so far I’m still right–I can’t go look on page 515 of Ibn Ishaq’s book because it doesn’t exist. And if it did, which edition would you mean? Which translator? You see how the credibility of using it as a source just drops further and further?

Totally useless information.
You’ve got to try harder than that.
 
Sister_Amy said:
I quoted an article from Bloomberg. Not the Vatican. Hello? Maybe Bloomberg linked to the wrong Vatican article. Maybe you should stick with accusing them of lying. Not me.

I wonder if you think people should all translate their sources from Arabic when they attack Islam? On Google. Hehe. Whatever.
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You made a claim based on an article. It was false. YOU failed.

But you have shown the standard of argument you present here. You swallow anything that supports your view without investigating and researching to ensure it is true. You are what Marx called a “useless idiot” for Islam.

Google translate doesn’t do a good job on arabic, it’s quite funny sometimes what it translates. However, when I use it I do so when I’m listening to a Saudi Arabian scholar of Islam, now a Christian, and that person is translating it for us. I use google because at least I can get the gist of it and verify that what he is saying is, at the least, along the lines of the intent.

Google translate does an excellent job translating Italian.
 
Sister_Amy said:
Is that why I didn’t go further? I thought it was because if I said anything more you’d get confused. :cool:

You told me to go to a book and look on page 515–that’s a pretty much useless instruction, if you’re talking about a book that was (a) written some 13 centuries ago, (b) in another language, and most importantly (c) no longer in existence.

If you wanted me to go look in Ibn Hisham’s book, that would be something difference, and I would have replied differently.

But so far I’m still right–I can’t go look on page 515 of Ibn Ishaq’s book because it doesn’t exist. And if it did, which edition would you mean? Which translator? You see how the credibility of using it as a source just drops further and further?

Totally useless information.
You’ve got to try harder than that.
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SisterAmy,

The book is the Sirat-un-Nabawiya, The Life of Muhammad, translated by Alfred Gullaiume, Published by Oxford University Press. Published 2004, Pakistan. The Page is 515, and the passage is as follows:

Kinan b. Al-Rabi’ who had the custody of the treasure of B. al-Nadir, was brought to the apostle who asked him aobut it. He denied that he knew where it was. a Jew came to the apostle and said that he had seen Kinana going round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle said to Kinana, ‘Do you know that if we find you he it I shall kill you?’ he said Yes. The apostle gave orders that the ruin was to be excavated and some of the treasure was found. When he asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr b. Al-'Awwam, ‘Torture him until you extract what he has,’ so he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head, in revenge for his brother Mahmud.

The same story can also be found in The History of Al-Tabari, Passage number 1582. (Published by SUNY Press). I’m not sure if Ibn Sa’d or Waqidi also relates this; I shall try and look this up if I have time.

If you would like to purchase The life of Muhammad to read it yourself, you can find it here:

amazon.com/Life-Muhammad-I-Ishaq/dp/0196360331/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237038768&sr=8-1
onlineislamicstore.com/b3828.html
 
samaan said:
SisterAmy,

The book is the Sirat-un-Nabawiya, The Life of Muhammad, translated by Alfred Gullaiume, Published by Oxford University Press. Published 2004, Pakistan. The Page is 515, and the passage is as follows:

Kinan b. Al-Rabi’ who had the custody of the treasure of B. al-Nadir, was brought to the apostle who asked him aobut it. He denied that he knew where it was. a Jew came to the apostle and said that he had seen Kinana going round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle said to Kinana, ‘Do you know that if we find you he it I shall kill you?’ he said Yes. The apostle gave orders that the ruin was to be excavated and some of the treasure was found. When he asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr b. Al-'Awwam, ‘Torture him until you extract what he has,’ so he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head, in revenge for his brother Mahmud.

The same story can also be found in The History of Al-Tabari, Passage number 1582. (Published by SUNY Press). I’m not sure if Ibn Sa’d or Waqidi also relates this; I shall try and look this up if I have time.

If you would like to purchase The life of Muhammad to read it yourself, you can find it here:

amazon.com/Life-Muhammad-I-Ishaq/dp/0196360331/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237038768&sr=8-1
onlineislamicstore.com/b3828.html
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That’s kind of cute, actually, you did a little bit of research. You and Alfred Gullaiume (you spelled it that way, but I don’t think that’s actually the correct spelling… lol) are still stuck with the rather annoying problem that the book written by Ibn Ishaq doesn’t exist.

If it doesn’t exist, how could it possibly be translated? That’s really a big problem, I think. Why don’t you answer that problem, for now.

Moreover, I actually have a couple of different books on the Sirah and there’s even a character called Kinana ibn al-Rabi’ but this bizarre story doesn’t appear at all.

And the fact that you’re quoting it is very very weird anyway. I mean, the Banu Nadir? You need to provide all sorts of facts, like when in the lifetime of the Prophet (saws) this story allegedly took place. I guess you can’t tell (though I can) just by reading it that it’s very suspicious anyway. You should remember that Ibn Ishaq (And At-Tabari also) did not verify the accounts he included in the first place.

All the same, I provided a story a few pages back where the Prophet (saws) actually scolded his companions for torturing two boys.

All you have is what is at best a very inauthentic weak report in a translation of a book that no longer exists (and didn’t exist to be translated anyway.) Just looking for trouble, all to make Muhammad look bad. It should tell you something that you have to try so hard.
 
Sister_Amy said:
That’s kind of cute, actually, you did a little bit of research. You and Alfred Gullaiume (you spelled it that way, but I don’t think that’s actually the correct spelling… lol) are still stuck with the rather annoying problem that the book written by Ibn Ishaq doesn’t exist.

If it doesn’t exist, how could it possibly be translated? That’s really a big problem, I think. Why don’t you answer that problem, for now.

Moreover, I actually have a couple of different books on the Sirah and there’s even a character called Kinana ibn al-Rabi’ but this bizarre story doesn’t appear at all.

And the fact that you’re quoting it is very very weird anyway. I mean, the Banu Nadir? You need to provide all sorts of facts, like when in the lifetime of the Prophet (saws) this story allegedly took place. I guess you can’t tell (though I can) just by reading it that it’s very suspicious anyway. You should remember that Ibn Ishaq (And At-Tabari also) did not verify the accounts he included in the first place.

All the same, I provided a story a few pages back where the Prophet (saws) actually scolded his companions for torturing two boys.

All you have is what is at best a very inauthentic weak report in a translation of a book that no longer exists (and didn’t exist to be translated anyway.) Just looking for trouble, all to make Muhammad look bad. It should tell you something that you have to try so hard.
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Using your logic, LOL, Sister Amy, the original qur’an doesn’t exist either. So it can’t be translated, nor can anyone know what actually was in it. Yet you seem to like this non-existent book and think it’s translation is par excellence.
 
chrisse said:
Using your logic, LOL, Sister Amy, the original qur’an doesn’t exist either. So it can’t be translated, nor can anyone know what actually was in it. Yet you seem to like this non-existent book and think it’s translation is par excellence.
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Eh? That wasn’t my logic at all.

The book doesn’t exist. Not just the original. There aren’t even copies of it that exist!

Whereas the Qur’an was first of all memorized by countless people, in entirety, and was copied many times, and every letter of every copy is always checked again my someone who has memorized it.
 
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