What is the best argument to promote the TLM?

[ProVobis]

In no way is the EF objectively superior (or inferior for that matter) to the OF.

Objectively no but the OF may have very divisive elements not currently inherent in the EF.

1. The vernacular divides the English speaking from the Hispanics from the French, etc.
2. Receiving from a minister/priest divides the communion line if not the seating preferences.
3. Receiving in the hand/ on the tongue certainly is divisive and controversial
4. Same for kneeling/standing during communion.
5. The wider range of music played in the OF.

and I can go on.

That said, I do attend the OF and recognize its validity and followers but it is what it is.

 

[ChurchTorch]

Objectively no but the OF may have very divisive elements not currently inherent in the EF.

1. The vernacular divides the English speaking from the Hispanics from the French, etc.
2. Receiving from a minister/priest divides the communion line if not the seating preferences.
3. Receiving in the hand/ on the tongue certainly is divisive and controversial
4. Same for kneeling/standing during communion.
5. The wider range of music played in the OF.
   **
   and I can go on.**

That said, I do attend the OF and recognize its validity and followers but it is what it is.

And it would still be nothing more than your personal opinion…

 

[ChurchTorch]

I can’t speak for Ockham, but I have the suspicion that he has never been to an Eastern rite liturgy where they pull out all the stops. For pagentry, solemnity, dignity, and sense of the transcendence of God, I can’t think of anything that comes close; certainly not the EF and certainly not the OF. But as far as reverent is concerned, I am not sure that Ockham would find what Christ did this evening so many hundreds of years ago to fit his definition either. It would almost appear that what was good enough for Christ woldn’t be quite enough for him. For beginners, the Canon was almost non-existent. And there were no New Testament readings as they had not been written; the Old Testament readings were for a Passover meal. The liturgy was not the Mass as we know it, but rather the liturgy for the Passover, with the Eucharist inserted into it. And as the Apostles remembered that night, they started with a very bifurcated liturgy, going to the Jewish Sabbath services on Saturday, and having Eucharist without any full-blown Canon on Sunday for years. It was, in fact more simple than the OF. And were they reverent? Well, if I read Paul correctly, abuses had already started before we were hardly out of the gates.

I watched a good bit of the Holy Thursday OF’s from St. John Lateran and the Nationa Shrine today on EWTN. VERY SOLEMN and REVERENT. I would compare them to the EF and the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom anytime.

On Sunday I will coordinate and MC an OF Mass at 08:00. At 10:00 I will attend Matins and the DLoSJC. The OF Mass will have far greater pageantry.

This whole argument that the OF is not as reverant as the EF is, like I said before, hooey. The OF is much simpler than the EF, both in rubrics and in prayers. Is the EF in (sorry, malphono - one of these days I will write it down!) the Low Mass less reverent than the EF in a sung High Mass? That is just silliness. It is no more nor less reverent; it is less complex and has less pagentry. Neither of these are a definition of reverence. If it were, then a Solemn High Mass in the EF would be more reverent than a High Mass, and that is just nonsense. They are all the Mass, along with the Eastern rites in all their variations.

I agree to a point. It often is about verbosity and pageantry. The Low EF vs. Pontifical High EF is a good example. On the other hand the OF has enough flexibility to be FILLED with pageantry.

And none of that really answers the question of the OP; we are all getting off track.

In not having an EF reasonably available, I have taken RCIA people (after Easter) to a Byzantine rite liturgy and to a Maronite liturgy, and in the past, to the OF in Latin with a stellar choir. I do not and have not gotten into a “this is better/holier/more reverant than that” routine with any of them; I just said that we were going to experience the different ways the liturgy of the Mass can be celebrated. Most have been nonplused by the means of reception of Communion in the Byzantine rite - a spoon administered by the priest; more than half seemed to prefer the Maronite rite to the Byzantine rite; and some were wowed by the choir at the Latin OF and vowed to go back (they didn’t) and some felt like they had been to a concert (which they liked or didn’t like) and some did not like the OF in Latin (although they had books with which to follow along).

In short, reactions were pretty much across the spectrum. And as to the OP, I would say again, any “argument” is going to work against you. An explanation of what is going on, avoiding a comparison to the OF, should be sufficient. I don’t have to get into a comparison between the OF and the Byzantine or Maronite rite to explain what is going on.

You took them to a Holy Quorbono (sp?) Nice. Some of their chants give me good bumps!

 

[Lujack]

Objectively no but the OF may have very divisive elements not currently inherent in the EF.

Well, I can agree with this to a degree. Much of what you’ve listed is not necessarily inherent to the EF, and some of it is debatable. I think that in some ways, the EF is protected from problems because of its life “in the bubble” right now; an indifferent congregation and a lazy or experimenting priest are not problems that the EF is likely to face, because of the extra effort that needs to be taken to celebrate. If it were imposed everywhere, it would start to face those problems.

That’s why I think that the current model for its spread is actually a very good one; a stable group asks the pastor to celebrate it, and that group, which has an interest in seeing it done properly and may or may not include the priest celebrating it, can help introduce it to the parish. That way, instead of leaving “the bubble”, “the bubble” itself grows bigger.

1. The vernacular divides the English speaking from the Hispanics from the French, etc.

This will always be true in the homilies, but it is a strength of the EF. Although the OF can be said in Latin, it almost never is. I do think that there are some advantages to the vernacular in certain parts of the Mass, but the Latin does add a lot of solemnity (my OF parish started saying the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei in Latin for Lent, and I hope that will continue past Easter, since it is very solemn and powerful).

1. Receiving from a minister/priest divides the communion line if not the seating preferences.

Well, this might not necessarily be an inherent problem of the OF. I mean, I’ve been to smaller Masses where the priest is the only one distributing the Eucharist. On the other hand, I think less people worry about this than you might be thinking about. I’ve never seen anyone trying to hop lines, but I might be missing it.

1. Receiving in the hand/ on the tongue certainly is divisive and controversial

On these forums, yes, but I’m not really sure how much this is the case out in the parishes themselves. In every parish I’ve ever been in, the sight of people sticking out their tongues rather than receiving the Eucharist in the hand isn’t unusual.

This, I think, is also an example of “the bubble”; communion in the hand was beginning to take place in the US before even the Second Vatican Council, let alone the OF being introduced. With that in mind, I think that had the OF not been introduced, standing communion in the hand would have become an indult anyway.

1. Same for kneeling/standing during communion.

Are we talking about standing/kneeling in the pew while waiting to go up for the Eucharist, or about standing/kneeling to actually receive? I’ve heard about the first, but I’ve never been in a parish that didn’t kneel. The second is a problem in a general parish, but I think that comes back to “the bubble” again; altar rails were coming down before the release of the OF Missal.

1. The wider range of music played in the OF.

This is almost certainly an example of the EF being in the bubble. Folk gospel music and such was starting to spread before the introduction of the OF; it is not inherent to the OF, which can certainly be chanted. If the OF had never been introduced, the struggle would be the same. Due to its isolation of a sorts, though, the EF remained clean of those problems. Not due to the nature of the Mass, but because the only people celebrating the EF were those devoted to it, and the only ones attending it were the same way.

 

[Lance_O]

I have been the main mover behind starting a TLM in my parish. We have a great group of people but we are struggling to grow.

What in your experience is the best argument to support the TLM?

Well for starters, start using the proper terminology that Pope Benedict XVI laid out in Art 1 of the 2007 Motu Propio "Summorum Pontificum". Also, the letter Pope Benedict XVI sent to the Bishops of the World with the Motu Propio, in the fourth paragraph when speaking of the Forma ordinaria (OF) and Form extraordinaria (EF), he pointed out “that is it is no appropriate to speak of these two versions of the Roman Missal as they were ‘two Rites’. Rather, it is a matter of a twofold use of one and the same rite.” - Letter to Bishops of the World

Don’t get me wrong, I attend both the OF and the EF of the Mass and I think they are both great. While pushing for people to experience the EF, we should also be pushing for people to start reading the GIRM so they understand an abuse when they see one in the OF and to start having problems with the abuses. There is nothing wrong with the OF when the rubrics are followed. It isn’t fair to outright slam the OF as 'trash, junk, worthless, ect". To do so, comes very close to walking down the line of disobedience to the authority of the Church. I’m really looking forward to the new revision of the GIRM for the OF. This is great opportunity to educate the people so hopefully some of personal ‘creativity’ will be limited.

I will say this: I really miss the communion rails, can’t stand the modern ‘plain’ church architecture, and am deeply saddened by the ‘wreck-o-vations’ done to beautiful churches.

 

[Lance_O]

Objectively no but the OF may have very divisive elements not currently inherent in the EF.

1. The vernacular divides the English speaking from the Hispanics from the French, etc.
2. Receiving from a minister/priest divides the communion line if not the seating preferences.
3. Receiving in the hand/ on the tongue certainly is divisive and controversial
4. Same for kneeling/standing during communion.
5. The wider range of music played in the OF.

and I can go on.

That said, I do attend the OF and recognize its validity and followers but it is what it is.

1: Since I’ve been to OF Mass of Ordination (St Paul MN) that had every single reading in a different languge, I can’t say that I agree with you on this one. Should the scripture readings all be done in Latin as well? There are getting to be more and more Masses offered in Spanish in my area.

2: I’m not sure if I understand, but I do prefer receiving from the priest and not the Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion. While Rome has allowed EMHC, I think they are over used and I believe the Vatican released something to the sort in 2004.

3: While I myself prefer reception of the host on the tongue (unless sick), we can’t forget that reception in the hand dates back a long time as well.

St Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386AD): " In approaching, therefore, come not with thy wrists extended, or thy fingers spread, but make thy left hand a throne for the right, as for that which is to receive a King. And having hollowed thy palm, receive the Body of Christ, saying over it, AMEN."

4: I also prefer the general use of communion rails, except with a Mass with 1000+ people. Great time for prayer/reflection after receiving our Lord, unless you are holding a 10 mo old child.

5: I 99% agree with you on this one. “On Eagles Wings”, along with a few others should be burned and banned from Mass for the rest of time. “Holy God We Praise Thy Name” and the TRADITIONAL “Litany of the Saints” deserves to be sung more than once or twice a year. Don’t even get me started on a “Polka Mass”…The Mass music is polka music (drums, accordion, guitar, bass guitar) and in my own humble opinion, far from reverent…YUCK!

 

[mick321]

Our Lady of Fatima is SSPX. That should answer that question in and of itself, as I follow the Magisterium.

St Birgittas is about a 40 to 45 minute drive from my home; I have been there on several occasions. Our Lady of Guadalupe Abbey normally has the OF in English and I attend there about once a month (family related issues) and have attended Midnight Mass there since 1971, and before that in the late 60’s. Interestingly on their website, they have the text of the Abbot Peter’s homily for Midnight Mass, but the picture is of the Mass on Christmas day. Midnight Mass is SRO, OF, English.

The EF is not reasonably available in Oregon at all; I know there was one celebrated occasionally in Eugene, but I am not sure it is still available. The whole issue is relatively quiet.

For some time we had the OF in Latin at St Patrick’s in Portland on Saturday evening with Schola Cantora (or perhaps it was Cantora Ecclesia) singing the Mass. I always made a point to take our RCIA class to Mass there; while it was not the EF it certainly brought the pomp and circumstance that can be the OF to the front.

If that answers your question to your satisfaction, then we have resolved that. If it doesn’t, then I would suggest that the issue is yours, not mine.

Happy Holidays.

 

[mick321]

If you wish to be amused, then amuse yourself because I’m not going to play your infantile games.

Happy Holidays.

 

[mick321]

Our Lady of Fatima is SSPX. That should answer that question in and of itself, as I follow the Magisterium.

St Birgittas is about a 40 to 45 minute drive from my home; I have been there on several occasions. Our Lady of Guadalupe Abbey normally has the OF in English and I attend there about once a month (family related issues) and have attended Midnight Mass there since 1971, and before that in the late 60’s. Interestingly on their website, they have the text of the Abbot Peter’s homily for Midnight Mass, but the picture is of the Mass on Christmas day. Midnight Mass is SRO, OF, English.

The EF is not reasonably available in Oregon at all; I know there was one celebrated occasionally in Eugene, but I am not sure it is still available. The whole issue is relatively quiet.

For some time we had the OF in Latin at St Patrick’s in Portland on Saturday evening with Schola Cantora (or perhaps it was Cantora Ecclesia) singing the Mass. I always made a point to take our RCIA class to Mass there; while it was not the EF it certainly brought the pomp and circumstance that can be the OF to the front.

If that answers your question to your satisfaction, then we have resolved that. If it doesn’t, then I would suggest that the issue is yours, not mine.

I provided a list of five valid EF Masses within 30 miles of your location.

You responded with this list of OF Masses.

Is it now fair to say that you are unlikely to attend the EF?

Happy Holidays

 

[ProVobis]

Well, I can agree with this to a degree. Much of what you’ve listed is not necessarily inherent to the EF, and some of it is debatable. I think that in some ways, the EF is protected from problems because of its life “in the bubble” right now; an indifferent congregation and a lazy or experimenting priest are not problems that the EF is likely to face, because of the extra effort that needs to be taken to celebrate. If it were imposed everywhere, it would start to face those problems.

Well, I did say “may have divisive elements” which was my way of inviting a discussion on this and adding perhaps to the list. I don’t think the NO was intended to be divisive; yet I can’t help but feel that many cultures were developed and encouraged rather than the NO trying to bring different cultures together.

In my EF days, certainly there were nun’s masses at 6am and grade school masses at 8 and 9 but you would always see others attend at those Masses. Latin Masses for the most part were “one-size-fits-all”; sermons were much shorter and if the sermon had not been in your tongue, you didn’t make a major issue of it for the most part.

I have to admit, though, that maybe it was after WWII, there was a growing attempt to segregate the congregations by offering sermons in languages other than the mother tongue of that country. This is where Vatican II caved in and continued that trend, while society as a whole resorted to becoming more integrated, though the process was painful. Some can say this was a healthy balance. After all, everyone can get what he wants but the law treats everyone as equals.

So while I think the New Order has “divisive” elements, I don’t think that this was intended. Others may disagree and I would have no problem with that.

 

[Lujack]

Well, I did say “may have divisive elements” which was my way of inviting a discussion on this and adding perhaps to the list. I don’t think the NO was intended to be divisive; yet I can’t help but feel that many cultures were developed and encouraged rather than the NO trying to bring different cultures together.

In my EF days, certainly there were nun’s masses at 6am and grade school masses at 8 and 9 but you would always see others attend at those Masses. Latin Masses for the most part were “one-size-fits-all”; sermons were much shorter and if the sermon had not been in your tongue, you didn’t make a major issue of it for the most part.

I have to admit, though, that maybe it was after WWII, there was a growing attempt to segregate the congregations by offering sermons in languages other than the mother tongue of that country. This is where Vatican II caved in and continued that trend, while society as a whole resorted to becoming more integrated, though the process was painful. Some can say this was a healthy balance. After all, everyone can get what he wants but the law treats everyone as equals.

I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying. Ethnic parishes for the Italians and the Poles were around for a very, very long time before Vatican II, and their original purpose was to have Italian and Polish sermons (also so that the Irish could stay away from the Italians and the Poles). So I don’t think Vatican II caved in there; if anything, the Catholic Church in the United States backed away from ethnic parishes for the new Hispanic immigrants, and took the wiser course of adding a Spanish-language sermon (and later a Spanish language Mass) to an already existing parish.

Where I do definitely agree with you, though, is when you talk about the nuns’ Mass and the grade school Mass; the divide there has grown tremendously, and I think we can both agree that there is no need for children’s Masses to be childlike.

So while I think the New Order has “divisive” elements, I don’t think that this was intended. Others may disagree and I would have no problem with that.

I can agree with that there are currently “divisive” elements in the OF, but I think that has more to do with changes flowing from a different source.

 

[ProVobis]

Ethnic parishes for the Italians and the Poles were around for a very, very long time before Vatican II, and their original purpose was to have Italian and Polish sermons (also so that the Irish could stay away from the Italians and the Poles).

You are right, of course. And so were all the EO parishes ever since the Big Schism. I was going to Polish and other parishes in three different countries before Vatican II. But the divide I’m talking about is the divide within one’s own parishes. Maybe I’m wrong there too, I don’t know, but I don’t think I could serve as an altar boy in all the Masses as I could before. I just don’t think it’s right that there is such a bigtime disconnect between so many cultures. At least the Latin tied us together to some extent, but, as others have suggested, that wasn’t the only thing.

I recently attended an EF Mass and I thought nothing special about it until I found out much later the priest didn’t speak a word of English. Could we do the same with the Latin OF? What do you think?

 

[otjm]

I provided a list of five valid EF Masses within 30 miles of your location.

You responded with this list of OF Masses.

Is it now fair to say that you are unlikely to attend the EF?

Happy Holidays

You might want to go back and look at what you provided, that I responded to. SSPX Masses are illicit and I have no intention of playing in that sandbox; and that issue is for another thread. That was one of the three you provided.

I answered you on the second one you provided; I have gone to Mass at St Birgitta’s, so your question was answered. And it is not within 30 miles; it is 35 miles and if I go faster than the speed limit I can maybe make it in 40 minutes. On a busy Sunday it takes about an hour each way.

As to the third one you provided, I have gone to the Abbey repeatedly; I do not know where you got your information that they say Mass in Latin in the OF. It is in English, and I have gone there repeatedly.

You are the one who implied I would not go to an EF; you are wrong. However, I primarily go to the OF at my parish, a parish that has had 24 hour Perpetual Adoration for something approaching 15 years.

Please re-read what you wrote before you accuse me of not answering your post. I am specifically referring to your post #122; you provided three Masses , not 5 Masses; I responded to all three you provided and did not refer to other OF Masses.

 

[Ockham]

As far as “proving points” you have not done so. You have offered your personal opinion. When it gets rejected you get frustrated and angry.

Again I’ll ask where this accusation of frustration and anger on my part come from? Can you show an example?

You also failed to back up your claim that there is no anti-Church speakers at the LA RE Congress before the thread was locked (in the L&S forum).

The problem with your argument is you are accusing me of personal preference by the same basis - personal preference. I provided reasons the EF is more reverent than the OF by using the four marks as a measure. I will not be able to explain this further if you continue to reject the principle of my argument. If you believe there is no reverent difference in posture, prayer, and rubics then there is no point to continuing.

For example: is it more reverent to kneel than stand? Genuflect than bow? Is it more reverent for the priest to face God or have his back to Him?

Would you argue that it is more reverent to receive Holy Communion in hand while standing, from a member of the laity, as opposed to direct onto tongue while kneeling from the consecrated hand of a priest?

If you honestly believe there is no difference then there is no point continuing this debate.

 

[stevusmagnus]

What is the best argument to promote the TLM?

TLM has produced countless Saints, martyrs, vocations, beautiful and priceless architecture, music, art, conversions, increased holiness, miracles, and vast spread of the Faith.

The Novus Ordo has produced widespread loss of faith, Catholics leaving the Church, lack of vocations, lack of reverence, sex abuse scandals, ugly churches, art, and music and countless heresies and errors.

Oh, and this.

 

[Timothysis]

TLM has produced countless Saints, martyrs, vocations, beautiful and priceless architecture, music, art, conversions, increased holiness, miracles, and vast spread of the Faith.

The Novus Ordo has produced widespread loss of faith, Catholics leaving the Church, lack of vocations, lack of reverence, sex abuse scandals, ugly churches, art, and music and countless heresies and errors.

Oh, and this.

Ah, well, there it is; question answered.

 

[Melchior_1]

Ah, well, there it is; question answered.

I know, right? It’s almost as if heresy and sexual abuse within the Church only started at 1969. Who knew?!

 

[stevusmagnus]

I know, right? It’s almost as if heresy and sexual abuse within the Church only started at 1969. Who knew?!

You’re right. Clergy and Bishops were spouting heresy and error freely in the 50’s, saying sacrilegious masses with no discipline from Rome and priests were abusing legions of children with complicity from the Bishops.

Oh wait. Those were the last 50 years. Nevermind…

 

[Melchior_1]

You’re right. Clergy and Bishops were spouting heresy and error freely in the 50’s, saying sacrilegious masses with no discipline from Rome and priests were abusing legions of children with complicity from the Bishops.

Oh wait. Those were the last 50 years. Nevermind…

“On August 7, 2009, bishop Raymond Lahey announced that the diocese of Antigonish had reached a $15 million settlement in a class action lawsuit filed by victims of sexual abuse by diocese priests dating to 1950”

This is just one example in Canada, So in this case your sarcasm generator failed, as abuses took place well before the Novus Ordo. Blaming sexual abuse scandals on a valid form of Mass isn’t just a strawman argument, but also smacks of ignorance. And we won’t even talk about the middle ages and the heresies involved within, plus other items that have happened throughout the history of the Church.

 

[Timothysis]

“On August 7, 2009, bishop Raymond Lahey announced that the diocese of Antigonish had reached a $15 million settlement in a class action lawsuit filed by victims of sexual abuse by diocese priests dating to 1950”

This is just one example in Canada, So in this case your sarcasm generator failed, as abuses took place well before the Novus Ordo. Blaming sexual abuse scandals on a valid form of Mass isn’t just a strawman argument, but also smacks of ignorance. And we won’t even talk about the middle ages and the heresies involved within, plus other items that have happened throughout the history of the Church.

Exactly, and its also worth mentioning that a large percentage of those priests who are/were involved in the sex scandals were ordained before Vatican II.