What is the best argument to promote the TLM?

[Joe_5859]

How is it possible? The only answer that I can possibly give is my current parish at college, my parish at home, my high school, my elementary school, and the priests and laypeople that I know. I can’t show you that. I can’t win argument with that. All I can do is say it, but to you it would be meaningless because you can’t see it.

Exactly. I can offer my life as an example, and the lives of hundreds of holy Catholic bishops, priests, and lay people I have met throughout the years. But other than that, nothing comes to mind.

I’m not sure why these threads tend to get so ugly. An outsider reading some of these posts may question the “good fruit” of the EF if it leads people to make such posts.

Are most of the people here from LA or something? One would think you guys have witnessed untold liturgical and spiritual travesties to be so critical of the OF and/or Vatican II. I guess I don’t have that baggage to carry.

 

[franklinf]

I’m speaking of the laity. I have read on many occasions that Humanae Vitae had more to do with people leaving the Church than anything else, along with the affirmation against divorce. The secular culture of the world overflowed its banks in the 1960s and drenched everything, which has much more to do with the dress and the attitudes of the average Catholic in Church today than any change in the liturgy. Though I am sure that there were some who were not thrilled with the change to the vernacular (J.R.R. Tolken comes to mind), most people thought that the liturgy in the vernacular was the “best thing the Church ever did,” and that was coming from those who grew up on the latin Mass.

I still do not believe that the **change of the liturgy to the vernacular **was the “cause” of so many leaving the Church. As has been mentioned before, that trend had actually began in the 1950s.

Gross misstatement of what happened. It was the change in the **prayers and rubrics
** that is the main issue. Throw in the wreckovation (removal of the altar rails and tabernacle) and other abuses and innovations (CITH, girl altar servers) that followed and you have a recipe for disaster.

I agree - there were social problems happening at the time. So, why throw open the doors and tear down the defenses at this critical time? “The smoke of Satan has entered…”

 

[Timothysis]

Gross misstatement of what happened. It was the change in the **prayers and rubrics
** that is the main issue. Throw in the wreckovation (removal of the altar rails and tabernacle) and other abuses and innovations (CITH, girl altar servers) that followed and you have a recipe for disaster.

I agree - there were social problems happening at the time. So, why throw open the doors and tear down the defenses at this critical time? “The smoke of Satan has entered…”

“How did the Catholic revolution affect Mass attendance in the United States? Two studies from the National Opinion Research Center in the years 1963 and 1974 provide us with a before-and-after picture. Part of the picture is that weekly Mass attendance among American Catholics declined to 50 percent from 72 percent. Most of this decline, as measured by yearly studies from the Gallup polling organization, occurred after the release of Humanae Vitae in 1968, the papal encyclical that prohibited the use of artificial contraception, or birth control.”

I have never seen that the “prayers and rubrics…removal of the altar rails and tabernacle…CITH, girl altar servers” as being listed as the reason for the decline in Church attendance. Indeed, girl atlar servers is an issue of very recent memory.

 

[otjm]

So answer the question and provide examples.

OK - my parish has only the OF. For the last approximately 15 years we have also had 24 hour Perpetual Adoration; we have all along had a strong committment to the poor through our food pantry, clothes closet, and of recent addition our Sunday open meal to the community (drawing in low income housing people for Sunday dinner) now operated by us and assisted by several other Protestant denominations; we have built the first Catholic grade school in 40 years in this archdiocese, had several students enter seminary with one ordination, and one young woman who joined a habit-wearing missionary group of Sisters; 11 people entering the Church this last Saturday, a viable Catholics Returning Home program, an active adult education group who have been studying the history of the Church this winter; an active Pro LIfe group, active Knights of Columbus, and I am sure I have missed a few items.

Oh - and we follow the Magisterium. No expressed interest that I have heard in the EF; which does not mean that it does not exist; simply that it has not percolated to the top. Pastor is 78 (beyond retirement) and appears to have no interest in saying the EF. He does the Red and says the Black. At 78, I am not going to berate him.

As to the other question asked (Vatican 2), the laity have been encouraged by Vatican 2 to be more involved between the Church and the world; this website is an example and so are the growing number of Catholic apologists as well as EWTN. There has been phenomenal growth in the laity studying the Bible through various programs, part of what Vatican 2 wanted to increase; there has been a huge growth in LOTH among the laity; ecumencial progress, while slow has occured between the Magisterium and some of the Lutherans, Anglicans and hopeful signs between the Orthodox and the Church (and that is where true ecumenical progress will be made). That is just to name a few. There have been new orders springing up since V 2 and under the OF; the Brigittine monks in Oregon being a close example. Others have been started and don’t have the baggage that all too many of the orders pre V2 carried into the late 60’s, 70’s, 80’s and into today (the visitation of sisters/nuns is a prime example of those who follow the Church and remember their charism, and those who don’t have a clue and are wandering in the desert).

There has been tremendous damage to the faithful by the dissident theologians, priests and bishops and nuns/sisters. The twits who decided to throw out the Baltimore catechims and replace it with a feel-good, Jesus is my buddy excuse for catechesis have sadly and significantly impacted two generations, and the bishops a generation and two generations ago who let that slip under their radar are partially responsible.

On the other hand, the OF is the most widely said form of the Roman rite, and the most recent statistics I have been able to find is that world wide 99.6% of the Masses are the OF. We can all agree there was not an organic change to the Mass and that the OF was far from what was invisioned by Vatican 2; on the other hand, it also happens to be the Mass that the vast majority of priests, bishops, abbots, Cardinals, and every Pope since it was promulgate have said/say. And the Church is still here, in spite of what liberals, National Catholic Reporter, Commonweal and not a few conservatives say.

Moral theologians were to expand moral theology beyond the Manual and a parsing of sins and bring a Scriptural understanding of morality to us; instead what we got was a variation of Situational Ethics taught to seminarians, who then became priests (with a de-emphasis on sin), something that was never intended. Gradually some are getting back on track. Their getting off track was because of Situational Ethics, not Vatican 2, and their getting back on track is because of VAtican 2 (and as both JP 2 and B 16 have repeatedly said, the documents still need to be fully implemented).

To say however that there is no good going on because of Vatican 2 and/or the OF is simply to deny reality. The Holy Spirit protects the Church now as in the beginning. It is the dissidents who make the news; just as in the secular world, there is little or no interest in those who do right, and all too much interest in those who stray. And while those who do right do not need the press (their reward is in heaven), it is a falsehood to deny that there are millions who simply and quitely follow the Magisterium.

 

[Joannm]

“How did the Catholic revolution affect Mass attendance in the United States? Two studies from the National Opinion Research Center in the years 1963 and 1974 provide us with a before-and-after picture. Part of the picture is that weekly Mass attendance among American Catholics declined to 50 percent from 72 percent. Most of this decline, as measured by yearly studies from the Gallup polling organization, occurred after the release of Humanae Vitae in 1968, the papal encyclical that prohibited the use of artificial contraception, or birth control.”

I have never seen that the “prayers and rubrics…removal of the altar rails and tabernacle…CITH, girl altar servers” as being listed as the reason for the decline in Church attendance. Indeed, girl atlar servers is an issue of very recent memory.

I was 14 when Humanae Vitae was issued. I remember being at Mass when the priest preached on it, and I remember people getting up and walking out. I really didn’t understand it that much, but I remember my mom telling me that people were leaving because they disagreed with what the priest was saying. Many of them never came back. Humanae Vitae was a watershed moment for the Church and did more to lose people than the changes in the Mass ever did.

 

[Ockham]

And I answered it. People are allowed to do that in a public forum.

You answered it with a non-answer.

You very much made an assertion: that the OF is inherently open to abuse. And its an inaccurate one.

So it’s just a coincidence the NO is much abuses? Did you see the latest LA RE Congress? Google liturgical abuse and let me know how many TLMs compared to NOs you find.

 

[franklinf]

“How did the Catholic revolution affect Mass attendance in the United States? Two studies from the National Opinion Research Center in the years 1963 and 1974 provide us with a before-and-after picture. Part of the picture is that weekly Mass attendance among American Catholics declined to 50 percent from 72 percent. Most of this decline, as measured by yearly studies from the Gallup polling organization, occurred after the release of Humanae Vitae in 1968, the papal encyclical that prohibited the use of artificial contraception, or birth control.”

I have never seen that the “prayers and rubrics…removal of the altar rails and tabernacle…CITH, girl altar servers” as being listed as the reason for the decline in Church attendance. Indeed, girl atlar servers is an issue of very recent memory.

How is this in reply to what I said? My reply was based on the fact that it was a gross misstatement to say the liturgy was simply changed to the vernacular.

 

[Timothysis]

I was 14 when Humanae Vitae was issued. I remember being at Mass when the priest preached on it, and I remember people getting up and walking out. I really didn’t understand it that much, but I remember my mom telling me that people were leaving because they disagreed with what the priest was saying. Many of them never came back. Humanae Vitae was a watershed moment for the Church and did more to lose people than the changes in the Mass ever did.

An excellent post. Apparently, clinging to the Church’s constant teachings and traditions was not what some people were expecting at the time; perhaps they expected “freedom?” Your post only proves to me that the changes in the liturgy was a very low reason for the decrease in Mass attendance.

 

[Ockham]

On the other hand, the OF is the most widely said form of the Roman rite, and the most recent statistics I have been able to find is that world wide 99.6% of the Masses are the OF. We can all agree there was not an organic change to the Mass and that the OF was far from what was invisioned by Vatican 2; on the other hand, it also happens to be the Mass that the vast majority of priests, bishops, abbots, Cardinals, and every Pope since it was promulgate have said/say. And the Church is still here, in spite of what liberals, National Catholic Reporter, Commonweal and not a few conservatives say.

To say there is no good going on because of Vatican 2 and/or the OF is simply to deny reality. The Holy Spirit protects the Church now as in the beginning.

The EF was practically bannished for decades - that’s why the OF is said in such numbers. Latin isn’t even taught in most seminaries so how can today’s modern priests say the EF? It’s easier to dumb down then smarten up so a complete return to the Mass of Ages won’t come overnight. Of course with the OF you get variations so there isn’t really one form of it. The global Church was in better shape prior to V2 and the NO although I’m glad your particular parish is doing so well.

 

[Ockham]

I was 14 when Humanae Vitae was issued. I remember being at Mass when the priest preached on it, and I remember people getting up and walking out. I really didn’t understand it that much, but I remember my mom telling me that people were leaving because they disagreed with what the priest was saying. Many of them never came back. Humanae Vitae was a watershed moment for the Church and did more to lose people than the changes in the Mass ever did.

Astute observation. With most modern Western Christians on birth control and birth rates below self sustaning levels which form of the liturgy we offer may become a moot point. Islamic families practice Humane Vitae, have large families, and will soon be the majority in our nations. If they implement Sharia Law our churches will be closed and conversion to their god strongly recommended. People may have disagreed with Pope Paul VI but that doesn’t mean he was wrong.

 

[ProVobis]

Humanae Vitae was a watershed moment for the Church and did more to lose people than the changes in the Mass ever did.

Both probably lost people. Don’t forget people had already stopped going to Mass in some places in Europe even before VII. In the US attendance started declining in 1964 or thereabouts, even when people expected the Church to approve ABC and priests were telling many to “use their consciences” on the matter.

 

[otjm]

The EF was practically bannished for decades - that’s why the OF is said in such numbers. Latin isn’t even taught in most seminaries so how can today’s modern priests say the EF? It’s easier to dumb down then smarten up so a complete return to the Mass of Ages won’t come overnight. Of course with the OF you get variations so there isn’t really one form of it. The global Church was in better shape prior to V2 and the NO although I’m glad your particular parish is doing so well.

The global Church may or may not have been in better shape. I am well aware of the issue of the EF over the last 40 years and I don’t disagree with you, and I also hold that it is going to be far longer than those who want it back before it will be even sort of available - due to a whole series of things, part of which is the intransigence on the part of clergy; part of it due to the extremely vfew priests who can say it, and due to a whole lot of other bits and pieces which I suspect still have to be identified and weighed.

Take a prime example - Cardinal George certainly has not been an enemy of the EF; and by last count there were something like 12 parishes in the the archdioces saying the EF regularly. Sounds like quite a few, until one realizes there are something like 350 + parishes there; so about 3% have the EF regularly. That, given the general lack of it most places, makes it a leader, but it doesn’t seem to be growing by leaps and bounds; statistically it is crawling.

Frankly, I wish I had a wand I could wave and all parishes would have the EF for 6 months; the whole issue would sort itself out rapidly. I lack a wand or any other means of accomplishing this.

 

[otjm]

Both probably lost people. Don’t forget people had already stopped going to Mass in some places in Europe even before VII. In the US attendance started declining in 1964 or thereabouts, even when people expected the Church to approve ABC and priests were telling many to “use their consciences” on the matter.

Mass attendance started to decline in the late 1950’s. The decline has been gradual, with a couple of blips upward and then a return to a gradual decline.

The interesting thing is that there has been a gradual decline in the mainline Protestant groups paralleling this decline in the Catholic Church, which would indicate that the source of the decline is due to other factors.

Other sources of declining, besides HV and the immediate whiplash against it are the increase of materialism after WW2 (due in part to the massive relocation of men to the war zones and the subsequent influx of women into jobs beyond teaching, nursing and stenography); when the men came home and found wives and future wives who were significant wage earners; the increasing secularism of society moving religion to a personal private matter, hedonism starting before Vatican 2 with Palyboy and its ilk and exploding with the Free Love movement of the 60’s; the breakdown of the extended family and following right on its heals, the breakdown of the nuclear family; the list goes on and on.

 

[Lujack]

You answered it with a non-answer.

No, I answered it with a legitimate answer: my experience in the Catholic Church. Can you see my experience? No. I can’t win this evidence because the only kind of evidence available can’t be produced; the only way that it can is if you were to fly out to Gettysburg, PA, and attend Mass at the parish here, or to spend a year at my old high school.

So it’s just a coincidence the NO is much abuses? Did you see the latest LA RE Congress? Google liturgical abuse and let me know how many TLMs compared to NOs you find.

No coincidence. There’s another reason-the EF is “in the bubble”; the only people celebrating it are the ones who are dedicated to it. In the 1950’s, you were beginning to see versus populum and communion on the hand in the EF; that would have continued if it was the only Mass offered during the 1970’s, 1980’s, and 1990’s. People disobeyed the OF rubircs in the same way they would have disobeyed the EF rubrics.

The point is that if a priest has dedicated great effort and perhaps years out of his life to celebrate the EF (as someone in the FSSP or the Institute of Christ the King or the Canons of St. John Cantius has) they are going to do it right. Nobody is going to make a special effort to celebrate a certain kind of Mass and then wing it; thus, the EF is in the bubble. Take it out of that bubble and you see the same problems that you see with the OF.

 

[Ockham]

I also hold that it is going to be far longer than those who want it back before it will be even sort of available - due to a whole series of things, part of which is the intransigence on the part of clergy; part of it due to the extremely vfew priests who can say it, and due to a whole lot of other bits and pieces which I suspect still have to be identified and weighed.

Very true. I don’t predict the EF becoming widely available, say in most parishes in our lifetime. I am very fortunate to have two within a thirty minute drive. It will take generations to rebuild from the damage done.

 

[Ockham]

No coincidence. There’s another reason-the EF is “in the bubble”; the only people celebrating it are the ones who are dedicated to it. In the 1950’s, you were beginning to see versus populum and communion on the hand in the EF; that would have continued if it was the only Mass offered during the 1970’s, 1980’s, and 1990’s. People disobeyed the OF rubircs in the same way they would have disobeyed the EF rubrics.

That’s a weak argument. If you have evidence of clown, balloon, puppet, jazz, liturgical dancers, in the 1950s or earlier I’d like to see it.

 

[stevusmagnus]

That’s a weak argument. If you have evidence of clown,

youtube.com/watch?v=NsC4wRPybpA

balloon

en.gloria.tv/?media=16608

puppet

youtube.com/watch?v=rh_nqtp3VrU

jazz,

youtube.com/watch?v=tWKZEGsfZZY

liturgical dancers

youtube.com/watch?v=nZ5it20gKqwyoutube.com/watch?v=nZ5it20gKqw

in the 1950s or earlier I’d like to see it

Oops! I thought you said “since” the 50’s.

In any case, enjoy the video fruits of the Novus Ordo!

 

[Lujack]

In any case, enjoy the video fruits of the Novus Ordo!

This is what makes things sometimes difficult. I attend an OF parish, like most Catholics do. It is, on the whole, very reverent and a generally wonderful place to be, like all the parishes I’ve been to. It has a good school, and a beautiful church interior.

As a young Catholic, I have an interest in the history of the Church, the EF, and other parts of traditional Catholic spirituality. I enjoy reading the New Liturgical Movement blog, and I love the architecture of Catholic churches. This forum is of natural interest to me. I’ve learned a lot of interesting things from reading this subforum.

But there’s a lot of OF bashing on here. Not just criticisms of it, but snide, ripping commentaries, as if it isn’t enough to love the EF, but that one has to hate the OF as well. Sometimes, there can be a real sense of community in this part of the forum; the excitement over the FSSP dedication was a good example of that. But other times, there are people who are disregarding Pope Benedict’s admonition against using liturgy to divide the Church.

Its almost enough to drive me out of the subforum entirely, despite the fact that a lot of the topics on here are very interesting to me. That’s a frustrating thing. And I think, and maybe I’m crazy, that there are more than a few people who attend OF parishes who post in this part of the forum, or at least browse it, who would feel the same way. We aren’t inferior Catholics. Our pastors aren’t inferior priests. The Mass we attend isn’t an inferior Mass. And for us to say that doesn’t mean we denigrate the EF; many of us have an interest in it. But it can be very intimidating when people say that our Catholic experience is inferior and abuse-filled, when in many cases it is not.

 

[otjm]

youtube.com/watch?v=NsC4wRPybpA

en.gloria.tv/?media=16608

youtube.com/watch?v=rh_nqtp3VrU

youtube.com/watch?v=tWKZEGsfZZY

youtube.com/watch?v=nZ5it20gKqwyoutube.com/watch?v=nZ5it20gKqw

Oops! I thought you said “since” the 50’s.

In any case, enjoy the video fruits of the Novus Ordo!

They simply are not the fruits of the OF Mass. They are the fruits of priests who lack common sense and have had an attitude that they know better than Rome. You are presuming by this that it could not have happened in the EF and that is pure speculation. We can speculate all day; and all of it is idle. The fact is, the abuses of the 70’s and 80’s and into the early 90’s were already dropping off, and have continued to drop off. Given the number of priests who say the OF with reverence (and there are plenty in my area), the growth in the priesthood by the ordination of the JP 2 priests, things are turning around even in areas that only have the OF. Throwing up something that happened 15, 20, 30 or more years ago says nothing about what is happening now.

 

[stevusmagnus]

They simply are not the fruits of the OF Mass. They are the fruits of priests who lack common sense and have had an attitude that they know better than Rome.

So Cardinal Schonborn lacks common sense and thinks he knows better than Rome?

en.gloria.tv/?media=16608

As well as a Cardinal and about 50 Bishops/ Priests/ Deacons in this video?

youtube.com/watch?v=nZ5it20gKqw

You are presuming by this that it could not have happened in the EF and that is pure speculation. We can speculate all day; and all of it is idle.

A balloon/ disco Mass could happen in the EF? Any videos of this?

The fact is, the abuses of the 70’s and 80’s and into the early 90’s were already dropping off, and have continued to drop off. Given the number of priests who say the OF with reverence (and there are plenty in my area), the growth in the priesthood by the ordination of the JP 2 priests, things are turning around even in areas that only have the OF.

JPII made Fr. Schonborn (of balloon/ disco Mass fame - see above) an Archbishop and a Cardinal.

Throwing up something that happened 15, 20, 30 or more years ago says nothing about what is happening now.

Schonborn’s Balloon Mass happened in 2008.

The Puppet Mass was 2008.

Jazz Mass was 2009.

Clown Mass was 2006.

Liturgical Dance Mass was MARCH 24. About two weeks ago!