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pnewton
Guest
I understand what you are saying, but would you say the same thing about one who rails against what Vatican II did yet refused to read any documents?
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Indyann
Guest
I just read the whole article and all I can say is “Lord, have mercy on us all.”
It literally makes me ill to know that there are people like that who call themselves Catholic. I knew there were a few, but I never knew it was so widespread. Two groups in Indiana! It is no wonder the Church is hated by so many. God help us, please.
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Aramis
Guest
Because it would be bearing false witness; that is, a lie.
The Roman Mass you want to claim is ancient is not ancient, merely old; it is a codification of the mass used in Rome at the time of trent, after years of slow but steady alterations and acretions; you would barely recognize the mass of 600 or even 800; even the mass of 1250 would be notably different (and that one you can see at least monthly in some areas: the Dominican Mass). And the Mass of 10th Century Spain, still used (rarely) in the Archdiocese of Toledo, is of a different lineage, with notably different prayer texts, even tho they are in latin.
Further, the Gallican and Sarum missals were quite popular in their home regions in 1000-1400… And they are notably different. Not as different as the Byzantine DL, but still different. Over half of the “West” (Europe) did not use the Roman missal. until the 1400’
Oh, and the Missal Text coming forth from Trent hasn’t been used since abut 50 years after… when a pope altered it slightly and repromulgated it. In fact, it was altered about 5 times before V II. nothing world-shaking, but enough that one can tell with an educated listen.
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Layman
Guest
So, because the Roman Catholic Mass was changed before, the current edition should be accepted by the people in the pews?
The Novus Ordo Mass origin is suspect and it has little visible effect in calling people back to piety. **It has been used to turn the rite into a ‘Supper’ and ‘Celebration’ and the Sacrifice has been played way down. **
Thus altar rails, vestments, Latin hymns and ceremonial have been dumped because they make no sense if Mass is primarily a meal. So much less troublesome, too. So much nicer if the terror and awesomeness of the Crucifixion is played down. Ladies, to the altar!
Because of the mind-numbing, constant emphasis on ‘celebration’ (even at funerals!), Catholics now don’t hear about Humility, Sin, Death, and Hell. So Masses are cheerful, chatty affairs and congregants head up for Communion every Sunday and Confession at Christmas and Easter. A nice spiritual trap, given Christ’s injunction about receiving Communion unworthily. Jesus is forgiving, his Judgement maybe mentioned in passing, if at all.
Only good thing is: That if the TLM can be, effectively, banned and the N.O. made mandatory, the same can happen to the N.O. The precedent has been set.
The Novus Ordo Mass origin is suspect and it has little visible effect in calling people back to piety. **It has been used to turn the rite into a ‘Supper’ and ‘Celebration’ and the Sacrifice has been played way down. **
Thus altar rails, vestments, Latin hymns and ceremonial have been dumped because they make no sense if Mass is primarily a meal. So much less troublesome, too. So much nicer if the terror and awesomeness of the Crucifixion is played down. Ladies, to the altar!
Because of the mind-numbing, constant emphasis on ‘celebration’ (even at funerals!), Catholics now don’t hear about Humility, Sin, Death, and Hell. So Masses are cheerful, chatty affairs and congregants head up for Communion every Sunday and Confession at Christmas and Easter. A nice spiritual trap, given Christ’s injunction about receiving Communion unworthily. Jesus is forgiving, his Judgement maybe mentioned in passing, if at all.
Only good thing is: That if the TLM can be, effectively, banned and the N.O. made mandatory, the same can happen to the N.O. The precedent has been set.
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ProVobis
Guest
Not if the world treats Vatican II as a false god or a religion of its own. That is what seems to have happened, and to the point where it’s wished it would have never happened at all.
Personally, I don’t see Vatican II as a cause for anything good or bad. On a secular level, it was a council to discuss matters, the status of a world organization, perhaps to discuss a new direction. If they produced anything written as they did, the world would be just looking at it as it does at everything else with an expiration date, including the Council of Trent or even the U.S. Constitution. Conservatives would try to keep as much of the document ideas alive for as long as possible, while the progressives would look for any loopholes in order to keep their agenda alive and traditionalists would rather just go back to the documents of some previous council. Looking at the Vatican II documents “in light of tradition” forces us all to do a lot of work and perhaps it is against our grain as we’ve already established our biases and pass on our biases to the next generation. And the next generation relies more on what’s been told them rather than what had been written. And we end up on forums like this and attack one another for our ideologies. But what’s done is done and somehow we just have to move on, while respecting one another’s differing opinions and prejudices. Everyone to enjoy the OF or EF of his/her choice this morning.
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roadsend
Guest
Actually it would not be a lie.
Visit some rare book rooms where you can view old editions of the Missale Romanum.
There is less difference between the Masses of the 13th Century, 16th Century and the Masses I grew up with in the 1940s and1950s than you are likely to find nowadays between the 8:30 and the 11:00 Masses said by a different padre with a different choir in the same parish on any given Sunday.
There is little difference to be found over these seven or so centuries in the rubrics or the prayers and the sacred music of the Mass is virtually identical.
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roadsend
Guest
Would that it were so.
A very large number of us do not have that choice.
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Timothysis
Guest
The irony behind mick321’s attempts to prove hypocrisy on my part is the fact that I have attended EF celebrations of the liturgy and even attended a Maronite liturgy. So his whole premise is as childish as his attempts at playing “got’cha.” The irony is that he will not *“say the same thing about one who rails against what Vatican II did yet refused to read any documents” *because that poster is one his “side.”
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ProVobis
Guest
Yes, I tend to forget that.
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Aramis
Guest
The Roman mass was still not the majority mass until the 1500’s or later.
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roadsend
Guest
Do you have a source for that?
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Ockham
Guest
What lies?
The only thing I see from your posts here is an unquenching need to conflict and strife. Why?
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malphono
Guest
Seems to me that’s kind of iffy. Don’t forget the reason that the Gallican Rite ended up being suppressed was that it been supplanted by the Roman Rite. The situation was such that the Gallican Rite ceased to be practiced and fell victim to the “200 year” rule. (The exception was Lyons, the usage of which was never suppressed and still technically exists as the EF in that See).
It’s pretty much the same story for the Sarum Rite, which was of course complicated by Henry VIII etc. (Hereford and one or two other English usages had been supplanted by the Roman earlier. So too, if I recall, was the Celtic.) In Iberia, the Mozarabic and Bragan Rites were the rule, but again, they were gradually supplanted by the Roman well before the 16th century until each was reduced to being used in one See (and even there not universally, as is still the case). [The Mozarabic would have died in the 15th century if not for the efforts of one of the Archbishops of Toledo who was, as I recall, a Franciscan.]
To me it’s unfortunate that the Gallican and Sarum Rites, etc, fell out of use and were finally suppressed. But I’m thankful that of the territorial Rites, at least the Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Bragan, and Lyonais were able to survive.
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Aramis
Guest
The problem with the Gallican rite was a mixture of local adaptations (no consistant missal in use for 200 years plus at trent) and post 1500 adoption of the roman missal in lieu of the various local missals.
The Dominicans, Carthusians, and Carmelites had stable missals, unlike Rome; Popes kept tinkering… but Rome was the 300 pound gorilla.
The Amrosian, Bragan, Mozarabic, and Dalmatian were still in regular use; the Dalmatian was kept updated to the Roman, but merely in Church Slavonic instead of Latin.
My point, however, is that the Trent missal isn’t that old, and specifically the Trent promulgation hasn’t been licit since about 50 years after the council closed… claiming it to be ancient and unchanged, let alone dominant since the west was the west (which really would be from 500 BC…) is a lie.
Instead, the valid claim is that it maintains an authentic development since the 800’s (since that’s the earliest full missal text I’ve heard of having survived) or before.
The Dominicans, Carthusians, and Carmelites had stable missals, unlike Rome; Popes kept tinkering… but Rome was the 300 pound gorilla.
The Amrosian, Bragan, Mozarabic, and Dalmatian were still in regular use; the Dalmatian was kept updated to the Roman, but merely in Church Slavonic instead of Latin.
My point, however, is that the Trent missal isn’t that old, and specifically the Trent promulgation hasn’t been licit since about 50 years after the council closed… claiming it to be ancient and unchanged, let alone dominant since the west was the west (which really would be from 500 BC…) is a lie.
Instead, the valid claim is that it maintains an authentic development since the 800’s (since that’s the earliest full missal text I’ve heard of having survived) or before.
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malphono
Guest
Well, that much we agree on.
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mick321
Guest
Absolutely.
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mick321
Guest
I have no side in this discussion, Sport.
Hypocrisy is your word. Wear it an way you like.
If you have no intention of attending another EF Mass - just say so - and call it a day.
All your posturing to the contrary rings as disingenuous and is totally unnecessary.
What’s next? Do you want us to believe that some of your best friends are Catholic?
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dianeav
Guest
here’s a good website with lots of information and videos: www.traditionallatinmass.org and the videos at www.youtube.com/traditionallatinmass …or the link from the website. Of course there are many others too.
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