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ParkerD
Guest
Catholic20064,
Would you care to explain why it makes sense to you that this fear-based belief system is what God would use to bring His love to the world?
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Would you care to explain why it makes sense to you that this fear-based belief system is what God would use to bring His love to the world?
J
Jerusha
Guest
Parker, perhaps you are not familiar with this extremely important Catholic prayer:
“O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins, because I dread the loss of heaven, and th pains of hell; but most of all because they offend Thee, my God, Who are all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to confess my sins, to do penence, and to amend my life. Amen.”
This prayer points out that love of God is a far more powerful motivator for doing good and avoiding sin than fear of hell, or purgatory. And God appreciates it more.
The fear of social disapproval is what keeps many LDS in line. There are passages in the Book of Mormon that express the belief that law is what motivates people to good behavior, and this is reflected in the mechanisms of the temple recommend interview, as well as a book that I sarcastically call “The Power of Condemnation”. I am sure that you know what book I am referring to.
Please refrain from accusing Catholicism of the faults of LDS.
“O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins, because I dread the loss of heaven, and th pains of hell; but most of all because they offend Thee, my God, Who are all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to confess my sins, to do penence, and to amend my life. Amen.”
This prayer points out that love of God is a far more powerful motivator for doing good and avoiding sin than fear of hell, or purgatory. And God appreciates it more.
The fear of social disapproval is what keeps many LDS in line. There are passages in the Book of Mormon that express the belief that law is what motivates people to good behavior, and this is reflected in the mechanisms of the temple recommend interview, as well as a book that I sarcastically call “The Power of Condemnation”. I am sure that you know what book I am referring to.
Please refrain from accusing Catholicism of the faults of LDS.
P
ParkerD
Guest
Jerusha,
These were Catholic20064’s words:
“I do not claim to know that I will be spared condemnation to hell. We are all in danger of going to hell to the extent we don’t live up to Christ’s teachings as taught by the Catholic Church.”
Go figure. He said it. I didn’t. Your assertions hold no water with me, at all. Accuse as you wish, and as you will. You choose your path every day in the actions and behaviors you give out to the world. Choose peace if you wish, or otherwise. See 2 Nephi 2 and Moroni 7 if you want a Book of Mormon reference for how our choices bring us the fruits of those choices.
C
Catholic20064
Guest
It doesn’t seem fear-based to me. I have every hope that I will eventually obtain salvation, but I don’t want to commit the sin of presumption, that of assuming that I will be saved. I think we all need to be realistic about our situation. We have the great hope that Christ died for our sins, but we can’t just say “I believe” and be saved. We have to continue “to work out our salvation with fear and trembling” as the New Testament plainly states. I don’t think Mormons see this any different than Catholics do – if you don’t measure up in Mormonism you’re not expecting the Celestial Kingdom are you? I cannot help but tell you that I strongly believe that accepting Joseph Smith as a true prophet puts your soul in danger. If that upsets people like you and whyme, I can’t help it. I didn’t make the rules – God did. Dependence upon belief in the Book of Mormon as a requisite of salvation is particularly dangerous when you consider the overwhelming evidence that it is a fraud. I am not able to say that Mormons will or won’t be saved eventually, but I can tell you that persisting in your belief in the Book of Mormon will eventually lead to God’s punishment even if it is only a temporary punishment. The overwhelming evidence against the Book of Mormon has been clearly presented on the Catholic Answers web site and on this board. The evidence is so strong that in my mind it amounts to foolishness to continue to accept it as the keystone of your religion. In the words of Spencer W. Kimball, God will not be mocked.
F
Finrock
Guest
Good afternoon RebeccaJ! 
Kind regards,
Finrock
First, I wanted to thank you for reading and responding to my post. Also, I wanted to acknowledge that I’ve read your post here. Lastly, the only thing I wanted to comment on was that I wasn’t dodging anything and everything I wrote is completely true.
Kind regards,
Finrock
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ParkerD
Guest
Catholic20064,
Thanks for your response. Not only has there not been “overwhelming evidence” given anywhere on this website or its forums, but there has been not a shred of evidence beyond speculative assertions about the Book of Mormon and its origins. Not one valid point has been made. Each speculative assertion has been responded to as clearly as can be explained in this type of forum.
Again, your religion is fine for you. Your assertions are yours to make. But to think that a “soul in danger” is thus and so because of believing Joseph Smith was a prophet and the Book of Mormon is true, is just plain your own set of beliefs, neither Bible-based nor rationally-based.
Peace to you and yours, and have a nice day.
J
jpaul1953
Guest
po18guy
Well-known member
Yes, you are right. I was reflecting on answers that did not square with others that I have received. I was pondering. The trinitarian God is the very basis of Catholic belief. What is LCMF???
po18guy
Well-known member
In my experience, they do tend to quote from it and to espouse its precepts much more than the bible. Note: I said in my experience. Correct LDS practice, like your mileage, may differ.
J
jpaul1953
Guest
Hey Bill,
I was in study group that looked at the Mormons, Jehovah witnesses, and Seven Day adventists. The main reason for the study was because all three of these faiths believe that the Church apostosized directly after the apostles past. Apostosy sort of means took a major wrong turn.
Keep in mind that in order that any faith organization gain validity the faith needs to knock the King off the top of the hill. So be the reason for these faiths saying we apostosized and the protestants saying we are not the one true Church of Christ even though all Christian faiths accept the Bible as the Church put the new testament canon together along with the old testament. This bible is called the Vulgate, the very first complete Bible-the yr was around 398 AD, the composer was St Jerome, a Catholic monk.
All faiths have good people and dedicated followers even if they are off-base. There are many good Mormons, but their beliefs are way different than how the Church teaches.
A short List:
May God guide us all.
I was in study group that looked at the Mormons, Jehovah witnesses, and Seven Day adventists. The main reason for the study was because all three of these faiths believe that the Church apostosized directly after the apostles past. Apostosy sort of means took a major wrong turn.
Keep in mind that in order that any faith organization gain validity the faith needs to knock the King off the top of the hill. So be the reason for these faiths saying we apostosized and the protestants saying we are not the one true Church of Christ even though all Christian faiths accept the Bible as the Church put the new testament canon together along with the old testament. This bible is called the Vulgate, the very first complete Bible-the yr was around 398 AD, the composer was St Jerome, a Catholic monk.
All faiths have good people and dedicated followers even if they are off-base. There are many good Mormons, but their beliefs are way different than how the Church teaches.
A short List:
- Jesus Christ is a son of God, not the son of God. But they do say he is the greatest son of God.
- They teach that originally God came from man, not man from God.
- They say that the original inhabitants of North America were Jewish people that crossed over from Russia when it was attached to Alaska ( they lay low about this point now).
- They believe in strict adherence to their beliefs, as do we.
- They believe man is the superior creature over woman and the earth.
- Here’s the tough one. They believe that if one is married and an elder of the Mormon church in good standing that when the elder and his wife die, they will spiritually procreate another Adam who will be placed on another planet somewhere to start a new population of people and the elder will be the god of that planet. This means that this is how we have our God, that God was a mortal being prior to becoming our planetary god. Incidently, because the elder must be married, Jesus cannot become a god.
May God guide us all.
C
Catholic20064
Guest
What would be valid evidence for you?
This article just scratches the surface of Book of Mormon problems:
catholic.com/library/Problems_with_the_Book_of_Mormon.asp
And if you want to go a little deeper, go to this page:
irr.org/mit/book-of-mormon-page.html
The Native Americans are not descendants of Middle Easterners.
po18guy
Well-known member
Listen to yourself: You take the assertion (BOM) of one man as “overwhelming evidence” of the unprecedented beliefs which you hold. It does not matter if millions saw the golden plates, or if no one did. ONE MAN’s word as to their content is the very basis of your faith. Can you see how this appears to non-LDS as a flimsy foundation?
God’s revealed truth demands that we advise you of your theological error, as a manner of brotherly correction. You condemn this? (See 2 Chronicles 19:10, Luke 17:3 and Galatians 6:1) It is a sin for us if we do not tell you of your mistake. Please don’t grieve him over this! You are a visitir here. He did not raid a Mormon site and say this. It is on a Catholic site and completely within Catholic thought, teaching and responsibility. Expect it.
Do you expect, to obtain converts without a fight? Please do not be upset if we think that our ancient faith is true and that your recent faith is false. Only one can be true.
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ParkerD
Guest
JPaul1953,
I suppose here we go again. Your study group was a pretty good example of how people, however well-meaning, can come to conclusions based on faulty information that gets perpetuated and cemented into their minds.
I suppose here we go again. Your study group was a pretty good example of how people, however well-meaning, can come to conclusions based on faulty information that gets perpetuated and cemented into their minds.
po18guy
Well-known member
Please explain the “LDS and Catholic” affiliation.
po18guy
Well-known member
I must point out that your answers are not the same as those I have received from other Mormons. Who is right?
C
Catholic20064
Guest
My biggest problem with his statement is that he claims, “Not one valid point has been made.” The DNA evidence which has been referred to conclusively excludes the possibility that Middle Easterners made a major contribution to the population of the Native Americans. It undermines the entire purpose of the Book of Mormon which was to testify to the “Lamanites” their ancestors saw Jesus Christ. In fact we can’t find any “Lamanites” anywhere among the Native Americans. That would cause me great concern if I were still a Mormon. Mormons now are reduced to saying the Nephite-Lamanite civilization was a very small civilization, so small they can’t be detected now. They are left with an indefensible position when compared to the great work the “Lamanites” were supposed to have done in the latter days. If their population has been “swamped” the Book of Mormon prophecy concerning the Lamanites is meaningless.
P
ParkerD
Guest
Catholic20064,
I happen to be busy at the moment, but wanted you to know that the Catholic piece and the IRR piece provide ample material for plenty of responses and that will be enjoyable. Time is the constraint for me, but I suppose the effort will be worthwhile to address all of the issues brought up, when I or perhaps others have the time to discuss each point.
Bear in mind that Paul’s writings form a very clear foundation for evaluating “gospel truths” versus “another gospel,” and that foundation is revelation–unmistakeable communication from God by the means He has said should be used, not the “wisdom” of men. See the entire chapters of 1 Corinthians 2 and Galations 1, for starters.
I happen to be busy at the moment, but wanted you to know that the Catholic piece and the IRR piece provide ample material for plenty of responses and that will be enjoyable. Time is the constraint for me, but I suppose the effort will be worthwhile to address all of the issues brought up, when I or perhaps others have the time to discuss each point.
Bear in mind that Paul’s writings form a very clear foundation for evaluating “gospel truths” versus “another gospel,” and that foundation is revelation–unmistakeable communication from God by the means He has said should be used, not the “wisdom” of men. See the entire chapters of 1 Corinthians 2 and Galations 1, for starters.
C
Catholic20064
Guest
Don’t expect me to waste a lot of time responding to your refutations of IRR and Catholic Answers. Mormon excuses for the Book of Mormon don’t interest me a lot at this time in my life. The entire Mormon defense winds up being, “You can’t prove that it is false.” A reasonable person with a reasonable mind would have to accept the Book of Mormon is false. There are no doubt hundreds of accomplished experts on ancient America converting to Mormonism at this time because the case for the Book of Mormon is so strong, but I haven’t noticed it.
G
GodIsGracious
Guest
Again, personal revelations does not a religion make.
Why are you here? Really? Is it to “correct” any “misconceptions” you think we have about Mormons? What’s the real purpose? Is it to get others to join Mormonism? Why at a Catholic community? Why not at some other site? Or are there other “cyber missionaries” at other religious forums doing the same thing of “correcting any misconceptions” about Mormonism?
It never seems like you’re quite accepting what the Catholic church teaches as to being just that, what it teaches, but always bringing up some rationalization (using your religious text) as the basis for your justifications. Sure, you’re “fine” with what we believe (hey, thanks for the note of approval.
) But it’s never to ask US about the Catholic faith and it’s more to sow doubt and rationalize why what you believe is true.I’v had a revelation from God. He appeared to me. But that doesn’t mean I get to go off and make my own religion. Infact, it was an ENCOURAGEMENT to GET BACK TO being in communion with Him. i.e. getting back to His church that Jesus Christ founded, the CATHOLIC Church. God, nor Jesus, would direct anyone away from His church. And this is why any other church founded based off of “revelation” is false and a delusion.
Anyone can, and has pulled “revelation” out of their patootie as a justification to their religion, but it doesn’t make it right, true, or even valid. Check this guy out, Growing in Grace Ministry. This dude uses the bible for HIS justification as being both God AND the Anti-Christ.
More info here: Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda Why not believe him? He has had a revelation and can back it up with scripture as well. To quote you: "See the entire chapters of 1 Corinthians 2 and Galations 1, for starters. "
C
Catholic20064
Guest
Of course the Mormons are trying to use the new media to defend themselves. The LDS Church has asked them to do it. Look at the following talk by Melvin J. Ballard:Again, personal revelations does not a religion make.
Why are you here? Really? Is it to “correct” any “misconceptions” you think we have about Mormons? What’s the real purpose? Is it to get others to join Mormonism? Why at a Catholic community? Why not at some other site? Or are there other “cyber missionaries” at other religious forums doing the same thing of “correcting any misconceptions” about Mormonism?
It never seems like you’re quite accepting what the Catholic church teaches as to being just that, what it teaches, but always bringing up some rationalization (using your religious text) as the basis for your justifications. Sure, you’re “fine” with what we believe (hey, thanks for the note of approval.
I’v had a revelation from God. He appeared to me. But that doesn’t mean I get to go off and make my own religion. Infact, it was an ENCOURAGEMENT to GET BACK TO being in communion with Him. i.e. getting back to His church that Jesus Christ founded, the CATHOLIC Church. God, nor Jesus, would direct anyone away from His church. And this is why any other church founded based off of “revelation” is false and a delusion.
Anyone can, and has pulled “revelation” out of their patootie as a justification to their religion, but it doesn’t make it right, true, or even valid. Check this guy out, Growing in Grace Ministry. This dude uses the bible for HIS justification as being both God AND the Anti-Christ.
newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/using-new-media-to-support-the-work-of-the-church
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