What is the book of Mormon all about

[GodIsGracious]

I need to make a correction to the bolded line below. It should have read:

**Neither God, nor Jesus, would direct anyone away from His church. **

Again, personal revelations does not a religion make.

Why are you here? Really? Is it to “correct” any “misconceptions” you think we have about Mormons? What’s the real purpose? Is it to get others to join Mormonism? Why at a Catholic community? Why not at some other site? Or are there other “cyber missionaries” at other religious forums doing the same thing of “correcting any misconceptions” about Mormonism?

It never seems like you’re quite accepting what the Catholic church teaches as to being just that, what it teaches, but always bringing up some rationalization (using your religious text) as the basis for your justifications. Sure, you’re “fine” with what we believe (hey, thanks for the note of approval. ) But it’s never to ask US about the Catholic faith and it’s more to sow doubt and rationalize why what you believe is true.

I’v had a revelation from God. He appeared to me. But that doesn’t mean I get to go off and make my own religion. Infact, it was an ENCOURAGEMENT to GET BACK TO being in communion with Him. i.e. getting back to His church that Jesus Christ founded, the CATHOLIC Church**. God, nor Jesus, would direct anyone away from His church. **And this is why any other church founded based off of “revelation” is false and a delusion.

Anyone can, and has pulled “revelation” out of their patootie as a justification to their religion, but it doesn’t make it right, true, or even valid. Check this guy out, Growing in Grace Ministry. This dude uses the bible for HIS justification as being both God AND the Anti-Christ. More info here: Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda Why not believe him? He has had a revelation and can back it up with scripture as well. To quote you: "See the entire chapters of 1 Corinthians 2 and Galations 1, for starters. "

 

[GodIsGracious]

Of course the Mormons are trying to use the new media to defend themselves. The LDS Church has asked them to do it. Look at the following talk by Melvin J. Ballard:

newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/using-new-media-to-support-the-work-of-the-church

Oh, this is rich:

Recently, a columnist, writing in a major U.S. newspaper, was irresponsibly inaccurate in his description of the Church and our beliefs and practices. Dozens, perhaps even hundreds of Church members and others who understand our beliefs commented on the newspaper’s website *correcting the misconceptions he was spreading and calling for accuracy. *

 

[ParkerD]

Oh, this is rich:

Gracious,
To answer your question about why I happened upon this website, it was because of one of the articles on the website about Mormon beliefs, that showed up in a Google search I did about the topic of divinity (if I remember correctly). When I observed that I as an LDS member could correct false and misleading information and assertions found in this website and the forum, I thought that would be something I could and should do. I doubt that it changes anyone’s mind, since people are usually pretty set in their ways.

But on the perchance that someone might think they can learn something, expand their understanding, or correct something they may have misunderstood, then I am all for that and so here I type away when I have the time and when questions come up. Then, too, I have enjoyed re-reading many Biblical passages as a result of answering some of the questions. That has been enjoyable and rewarding in itself.

By the way, I had already written Wikipedia articles or edited them long before the talk cited in this latest exchange. It confirmed what I had already felt was a good idea to do: correct misinformation on the internet about Mormon beliefs.

 

[Finrock]

Good afternoon cdyblr! I hope you are well today.

Finrock,

Thanks so much for your reply.

You are welcome!

However, the Missionaries are anything but upfront. I was never…I repeat NEVER let in on the more shall we say “unconventional” doctrines of the lds sect. I didn’t learn much of this until I had spent quite some time (over a year) in lds land.

I can understand your sentiment, although it certainly is possible that some missionaries are deliberately not forthright, I think it’s more of a matter of missionaries wanting to teach the gospel, which, by the way, they are scripturally commanded to do. And, as I pointed out the gospel of Jesus Christ, as understood by Mormons, are those 5 main princples and ordinances. Of course they entail a lot more, so missionaries expound on those principles and ordinances, but these fundamental principles are their focus. In an ideal situation, those who investigate the LDS church would also be attending the LDS church prior to baptism, and taking part in the Gospel Principles class. The Gospel Principles class, in addition to being a good general overview of the most important points of Mormon doctrine, is also intended to be a supplement to what is being taught by the missionaries. I don’t know if you took part in this class and if you were given a Gospel Principles manual, but almost all of what you term “unconventional” doctrines are reviewed there. Also, once you are baptized, you should have continued to take part in the Gospel Principles class. If all these things happened, then you should have learned about the things you found objectionable sooner rather than later.

So, I don’t think it was a matter of the missionaries not being upfront, more than it was the missionaries were being obedient to their charge to “…avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain” (Titus 3:9, see also 2 Tim. 2:23) but rather instead to "…declare glad tidings, yea, publish it upon the mountains, and upon every high place, and among every people that thou shalt be permitted to see. And thou shalt do it with all humility, trusting in me, reviling not against revilers. And of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost" (D&C 19:29-31).

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[zerinus]

Of course the Mormons are trying to use the new media to defend themselves. The LDS Church has asked them to do it. Look at the following talk by Melvin J. Ballard:

newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/using-new-media-to-support-the-work-of-the-church

I would have said “explain” themselves rather than “defend” themselves. The LDS Church is more often misunderstood than attacked. The following paragraphs from that interesting talk I think are particularly relevant:

That word conversation is important. There are conversations going on about the Church constantly. Those conversations will continue whether or not we choose to participate in them. But we cannot stand on the sidelines while others, including our critics, attempt to define what the Church teaches. While some conversations have audiences in the thousands or even millions, most are much, much smaller. But all conversations have an impact on those who participate in them. Perceptions of the Church are established one conversation at a time.

---

We are living in a world saturated with all kinds of voices. Perhaps now, more than ever, we have a major responsibility as Latter-day Saints to define ourselves, instead of letting others define us. Far too many people have a poor understanding of the Church because most of the information they hear about us is from news media reports that are often driven by controversies. Too much attention to controversy has a negative impact on peoples’ perceptions of what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints really is.

 

[swplan76]

After reading your answer I have another question.what are the so called golden plates,what was on the GP and who else saw the plates

Joseph kept them hidden. His wife Emma, who wrote down some of the things Joseph read out of the hat, never saw the plates. Martin Harris also wrote things down for Joseph as he read out of the hat. Harris never saw the plates either. From what I know Joseph revealed the plates to a few people as he was instructed by Moroni (if the plates existed).

It is a little strange that Joseph had them, translated them, but kept them hidden from people who wanted to believe in them and then they were stolen… odd.

The contents of the ‘Book of Mormon’ is said to have been on the plates, but at least one book Joseph was forbidden to translate because Martin Harris took a page to show his wife and she hid it. She wanted Joseph to translate it again to verify that he was actually reading from a source that was hidden in his hat. Joseph went to pray and then came back and told Harris that God was very angry that he had taken the page away and as a consequence Joseph would never be able to translate from that book again.

I think the LDS argument is that God wanted people to believe in it, not because they had seen the plates, but because of its divine authority.

Another way to think about it is that Joseph could not translate the page again because he was not really translating anything from golden plates, but was making some of it up and taking some of it from a story on paper that he had either found or stolen which was written on paper (most likely). Joseph had been arrested for being a “peep stone seer.” He was a treasure hunter that claimed that he could see things with the help of a magic stone inside a hat and find treasure. I believe that just recently a document surfaced that recorded his arrest under these charges. It has been many years and he may have been arrested under false charges. The LDS report that Joseph was not well liked by people who knew about his claims about having seen Jesus and God while praying at the age of 14.

 

[zerinus]

Again, personal revelations does not a religion make.

Joseph Smith’s revelations were not “personal revelations”. He was the prophet of a new dispensation, like Moses. His revelations were intended for all mankind, and for the organization of the restored Church. They are no more “personal revelations” than Moses’ revelations were personal revelations.

 

[ParkerD]

Joseph kept them hidden…

Hi, SWPlan,
I thought it would be good to quote from one of your past comments to me:

"There are so many things that are difficult to process about the LDS church for me. Kolob is a small thing, but still one among many of those things that are strange (for me).

CS Lewis is an interesting writer. In ‘Screwtape Letters’ Lewis writes,
“We (Satan and the demons) want cattle who can finally become food; he (God) wants servants who can finally become his children. We(Satan and the demons) want to suck in, he(God) wants to give out. We(Satan and the demons) are empty and would be filled; he(God) is full and flows over. Our war aim is a world in which Our Father Below has drawn all other beings into himself: the Enemy(God) wants a world full of beings united to him but still distinct.”
I think you are right, Satan wants to dominate us, but he wants us to think its our own idea. If we catch on, then we will resist him. I don’t know if Lewis has it all figured right, but he presents the idea that Satan is presently, throughout time, trying to deceive us, not so we will suffer here, but so we will be fat for damnation - Satan wants to keep us dumb and distract us from discovering who God is and what God might really want to do with our lives - he wants us to lose our identity and potential, so he can have us for eternity.
Later,
SW "

You were correct in that what you have found “difficult to process” is most probably that you have read wrong information. The hat notion is almost always presented wrong, and most of what you have written here is just plain incorrect. It would take more time than I have right now to correct all of the misinformation you told about having heard, but I’ll get to it in the next few days. Meanwhile, I liked your CS Lewis quote from the “Screwtape Letters”.

 

[swplan76]

Hi, SWPlan,
I thought it would be good to quote from one of your past comments to me:

CS Lewis is an interesting writer. In ‘Screwtape Letters’ Lewis writes,
“We (Satan and the demons) want cattle who can finally become food; he (God) wants servants who can finally become his children. We(Satan and the demons) want to suck in, he(God) wants to give out. We(Satan and the demons) are empty and would be filled; he(God) is full and flows over. Our war aim is a world in which Our Father Below has drawn all other beings into himself: the Enemy(God) wants a world full of beings united to him but still distinct.”
I think you are right, Satan wants to dominate us, but he wants us to think its our own idea. If we catch on, then we will resist him. I don’t know if Lewis has it all figured right, but he presents the idea that Satan is presently, throughout time, trying to deceive us, not so we will suffer here, but so we will be fat for damnation - Satan wants to keep us dumb and distract us from discovering who God is and what God might really want to do with our lives - he wants us to lose our identity and potential, so he can have us for eternity."

You were correct in that what you have found “difficult to process” is most probably that you have read wrong information. The hat notion is almost always presented wrong, and most of what you have written here is just plain incorrect. It would take more time than I have right now to correct all of the misinformation you told about having heard, but I’ll get to it in the next few days. Meanwhile, I liked your CS Lewis quote from the “Screwtape Letters”.

Hey ParkerD,

   Yeah, I love that quote.  Lewis had a unique insight into the nature of things.  I've spent some time with 'The Great Divorce' recently - its awesome.

   Please take what I've written and clean it up for me.  I'll be the first to admit that I don't know everything.

Thanks,
SW

 

[GodIsGracious]

ParkerD, the reason why I quoted that one paragraph saying, “Oh, this is rich,” is due to the fact that you guys are here “correcting misconceptions” we have about the Mormon religion, when the Mormon religion was FOUNDED ON misconceptions about the Catholic church.

The irony of such a statement! That’s what I was laughing about.

Gracious,
To answer your question about why I happened upon this website, it was because of one of the articles on the website about Mormon beliefs, that showed up in a Google search I did about the topic of divinity (if I remember correctly). When I observed that I as an LDS member could correct false and misleading information and assertions found in this website and the forum, I thought that would be something I could and should do. I doubt that it changes anyone’s mind, since people are usually pretty set in their ways.

But on the perchance that someone might think they can learn something, expand their understanding, or correct something they may have misunderstood, then I am all for that and so here I type away when I have the time and when questions come up. Then, too, I have enjoyed re-reading many Biblical passages as a result of answering some of the questions. That has been enjoyable and rewarding in itself.

By the way, I had already written Wikipedia articles or edited them long before the talk cited in this latest exchange. It confirmed what I had already felt was a good idea to do: correct misinformation on the internet about Mormon beliefs.

 

[po18guy]

My biggest problem with his statement is that he claims, “Not one valid point has been made.” The DNA evidence which has been referred to conclusively excludes the possibility that Middle Easterners made a major contribution to the population of the Native Americans. It undermines the entire purpose of the Book of Mormon which was to testify to the “Lamanites” their ancestors saw Jesus Christ. In fact we can’t find any “Lamanites” anywhere among the Native Americans. That would cause me great concern if I were still a Mormon. Mormons now are reduced to saying the Nephite-Lamanite civilization was a very small civilization, so small they can’t be detected now. They are left with an indefensible position when compared to the great work the “Lamanites” were supposed to have done in the latter days. If their population has been “swamped” the Book of Mormon prophecy concerning the Lamanites is meaningless.

Mormons certainly have great faith and trust in Joseph Smith. They explicitly believe in his writings. They believe that God is revealing Himself in an on-going basis - otherwise, why would His very nature change from time to time? Why would not only His nature, but that also of His Son and the Holy Spirit change? Why would the nature of marriage suddenly change? Why would virtually everything suddenly change? Why would this happen in religious free-for-all America in the 1800s?

God has always left ample physical evidence of his work. Travel the holy land and the sites are still there, in most cases. More are being discovered through archeological efforts. There is zero, zip, nada as far as physical evidence of anything alleged or written of in the BOM. Nothing. There is nothing outside of Joseph Smith’s claims for the never-before-heard-of angels he alleges are real. DNA testing reveals that the civilizations in the BOM are likely false. There is zero archeological or historical evidence for these allegedly massive civilizations ever existing or having been involved in an epic battle.

The alleged emigration to the new world took place is several supposed waves, over some amount of time. No one involved ever documented it - not even the survivors. Only JS. I find this amazing, and 100% against human nature. History is written by the victors - except for the BOM, where they remained silent, as if sworn to secrecy. Technologies that did not exist until JS’s time are written of, again with zero evidence. God always sends many prophets, with the greatest being Christ. All who come after the Apostolic age are, by definition, false prophets. See the letters of John.

Even though I am speaking to you, I fully expect some of them to cry about unfairness. But, they came here. What do they expect - that we timidly march in 1,000 yard stare lockstep to the nearest temple after hearing JS’s "revelation? I give them credit for amazing faith and trust, but none for fact checking.

Know also that it is permitted to lie or deceive for the sake of their faith. It is always a sin for Catholics to lie - no matter the reason. Which more closely reflects the truth that is God?

 

[Catholic20064]

A good summary of the problems mtDNA research has caused Book of Mormon apologists can be found in an article written by Simon Southerton:

signaturebooks.com/dna.htm

A quote from the summary of the article:

American Indians are not descended from Israelites. This is the clear message from over a century of research by thousands of archaeologists and anthropologists. This research has revealed that the original Americans entered the continent about 20,000 years ago. By about 10,000 years ago, independent of Old World civilizations, Native American began developing their own civilizations and domesticating their own New World crops (maize, beans, squash) and animals (llamas, turkeys, alpacas). There is no conclusive evidence whatsoever that Old World civilizations had any significant contact with American Indian cultures until 1000 AD, with the arrival of the Norse in Newfoundland. American Indian accomplishments stand on their own merit; they have their own unique origins and histories, and the descendants of the first people to inhabit the New World are growing impatient with Mormons imposing their European-style mythologies on them. In a similar way, scientists are growing impatient with non-scientists sensationalizing or cherry-picking their way through the technical literature—especially those who begin by questioning the foundations of science on the basis of theological assumptions.

 

[why_me]

Hey why me, thanks for the link. That is a great site. I had previosly used this site for that purpose, which is also good; but the one you have linked to looks even better.

You are welcome. I noticed that the catholic posters ignored John Whitmer’s statement and testimony about handling the plates with strange letters on it. Now for the book of mormon critics that would mean that someone would have needed to write a book that was engraved with strange letters on sheets of metal bounded to form a book. I don’t think that Joseph Smith had that talent.

 

[GodIsGracious]

You are welcome. I noticed that the catholic posters ignored John Whitmer’s statement and testimony about handling the plates with strange letters on it. Now for the book of mormon critics that would mean that someone would have needed to write a book that was engraved with strange letters on sheets of metal bounded to form a book. I don’t think that Joseph Smith had that talent.

And I notice that pretty much the vast majority of mormons ignore scientific evidence that disproves their religion. LOL

 

[zerinus]

You are welcome. I noticed that the catholic posters ignored John Whitmer’s statement and testimony about handling the plates with strange letters on it. Now for the book of mormon critics that would mean that someone would have needed to write a book that was engraved with strange letters on sheets of metal bounded to form a book. I don’t think that Joseph Smith had that talent.

I agree. I have said this before, and will say it again: Joseph Smith’s own story of what happened to him always turns out to be more believable than the criticisms of the critics.

 

[why_me]

A good summary of the problems mtDNA research has caused Book of Mormon apologists can be found in an article written by Simon Southerton:

signaturebooks.com/dna.htm

A quote from the summary of the article:

:takeoff:

The DNA debate has more or less fizzled. No one barely mentions it anymore and it hasn’t created a problem for the lds church.

Now lets get real here. You are a catholic right? Now what would you do if jewish blood was found in the american indian? Would you suddenly join the lds church? Or would you hem and haw? I think that you would probably look into the lds church, as would many. And as more hebrew blood was discovered, more would join the lds church and suddenly, perhaps proof that god exists would be present since it would begin to prove the book of mormon.

But it will never happen. God works on faith and not proof.

 

[why_me]

Please explain the “LDS and Catholic” affiliation.

Born catholic, converted to the lds faith, and now attend Mass. But I can also attend the lds service. And since no one recognizes each others baptism, I can be both.

 

[Catholic20064]

The DNA debate has more or less fizzled. No one barely mentions it anymore and it hasn’t created a problem for the lds church.

Now lets get real here. You are a catholic right? Now what would you do if jewish blood was found in the american indian? Would you suddenly join the lds church? Or would you hem and haw? I think that you would probably look into the lds church, as would many. And as more hebrew blood was discovered, more would join the lds church and suddenly, perhaps proof that god exists would be present since it would begin to prove the book of mormon.

But it will never happen. God works on faith and not proof.

No one mentions the DNA evidence anymore? You must live in la-la land. It is a dagger in the heart of Mormon claims about the Book of Mormon. If no one is mentioning it in Mormon land it is because they have to try hard to ignore the obvious, but it’s being mentioned outside of Mormon circles.

I would not join the Mormon Church simply because I found out that Jewish blood was found in the Americas though it would bolster the credibility of the Book of Mormon. The rest of the book’s story is enough to show the Book of Mormon is false – DNA research simply is more verification of it.

 

[Catholic20064]

You are welcome. I noticed that the catholic posters ignored John Whitmer’s statement and testimony about handling the plates with strange letters on it. Now for the book of mormon critics that would mean that someone would have needed to write a book that was engraved with strange letters on sheets of metal bounded to form a book. I don’t think that Joseph Smith had that talent.

From Mark Twain’s “Roughin’ It”:

All men have heard of the Mormon Bible, but few except the “elect” have seen it, or, at least, taken the trouble to read it. I brought away a copy from Salt Lake. The book is a curiosity to me, it is such a pretentious affair, and yet so “slow,” so sleepy; such an insipid mess of inspiration. It is chloroform in print. If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle–keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate. If he, according to tradition, merely translated it from certain ancient and mysteriously-engraved plates of copper, which he declares he found under a stone, in an out-of-the-way locality, the work of translating was equally a miracle, for the same reason.

The book seems to be merely a prosy detail of imaginary history, with the Old Testament for a model; followed by a tedious plagiarism of the New Testament. The author labored to give his words and phrases the quaint, old-fashioned sound and structure of our King James’s translation of the Scriptures; and the result is a mongrel–half modern glibness, and half ancient simplicity and gravity. The latter is awkward and constrained; the former natural, but grotesque by the contrast. Whenever he found his speech growing too modern–which was about every sentence or two–he ladled in a few such Scriptural phrases as “exceeding sore,” “and it came to pass,” etc., and made things satisfactory again. “And it came to pass” was his pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a pamphlet.

THE TESTIMONY OF THREE WITNESSES.
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people unto whom this work shall come, that we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken; and we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for His voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true; and it is marvellous in our eyes; nevertheless the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with Him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

OLIVER COWDERY,
DAVID WHITMER,
MARTIN HARRIS.

Some people have to have a world of evidence before they can come anywhere in the neighborhood of believing anything; but for me, when a man tells me that he has “seen the engravings which are upon the plates,” and not only that, but an angel was there at the time, and saw him see them, and probably took his receipt for it, I am very far on the road to conviction, no matter whether I ever heard of that man before or not, and even if I do not know the name of the angel, or his nationality either.

Next is this:

AND ALSO THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHT WITNESSES. Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people unto whom this work shall come, that Joseph Smith, Jr., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated, we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen; and we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

CHRISTIAN WHITMER,
JACOB WHITMER,
PETER WHITMER, JR.,
JOHN WHITMER,
HIRAM PAGE,
JOSEPH SMITH, SR.,
HYRUM SMITH,
SAMUEL H. SMITH.

And when I am far on the road to conviction, and eight men, be they grammatical or otherwise, come forward and tell me that they have seen the plates too; and not only seen those plates but “hefted” them, I am convinced. I could not feel more satisfied and at rest if the entire Whitmer family had testified.

 

[po18guy]

:tiphat:

The DNA debate has more or less fizzled. No one barely mentions it anymore and it hasn’t created a problem for the lds church.

Now lets get real here. You are a catholic right? Now what would you do if jewish blood was found in the american indian? Would you suddenly join the lds church? Or would you hem and haw? I think that you would probably look into the lds church, as would many. And as more hebrew blood was discovered, more would join the lds church and suddenly, perhaps proof that god exists would be present since it would begin to prove the book of mormon.

But it will never happen. God works on faith and not proof.

Seriously, PLEASE explain how you can be both LDS and Catholic. TSuzuki also tried that trick. Since the beliefs are mutually exclusive in so many areas, this appears to be deceptive.