What is the book of Mormon all about

[ParkerD]

What I “spectated” is when the lds people get stumped with a question they take a long while before they respond back. These guys probably write this questions down go to their elder and make up a story to cover it. WOW!

Mike,
I usually edit misspelled words in the quote I respond to, but I’m not sure if you intended to use the word “expected” or the word “speculated”. In any case, speaking for myself I have a full time job, a wife and eight children (six living at home), do the laundry and the dishes and the yard work at our house (my boys do other yards), and have never asked anyone for help answering any of the questions here. It’s a question of time, Mike. I have other priorities–does that make sense? When I am able to get to it, I look on here and respond to questions that seem valid and genuine, or that would seem to have general interest. Time is the limiting factor–I have a thorough knowledge of LDS beliefs and teachings of today, but am not an expert on every writing of every apostle or every other writer in the LDS church nor every website that tries to tear it down. The latter doesn’t bother me at all. I don’t care about second-hand, third-hand, or fourth-hand sources. I have first-hand sources.

To Gracious,
I have actually learned quite a bit about the Catholic beliefs by reading responses to some of my questions or reading explanations of beliefs. I loved a cite by Rebecca about meditating–best thing I’ve read by Catholics except the poetry of Gerard Manley Hopkins which I always love. I also very much enjoyed a poem about the fall of Adam a week or so ago, and have considered it important to try and understand the framework for several beliefs. You may not consider that important, but I do for the sake of understanding people better, which I sincerely desire to do.

 

[ParkerD]

There is an artificial nature to their wide-eyed happiness. I think you and I both know why.Unfortunately for the truth, the Catholic Church is their main hunting ground.

Po18Guy,
Again, if you have thought I am using this as a “hunting ground” then you are totally mistaken. Christine from Washington is the only Catholic I have encountered in this forum who seemed to have any potential of actually thinking about the subject matter that is brought up, beyond a mere glance and dismissal. I have appreciated her sincerity and respect her firm beliefs. I respect all of the firm beliefs I see expressed here, but folks the LDS church is here to stay and will grow during your lifetime and understanding people is far better than belittling them with unfounded misconceptions. What baffles me is why that concept seems so hard for some people to grasp.

 

[Mike1886]

:takeoff:

The DNA debate has more or less fizzled. No one barely mentions it anymore and it hasn’t created a problem for the lds church.

Of course its not a problem for the lds church you think they are going to give your 10% a month check that easy.No. Most likely they will say its the devils work testing your faith. Hearing that your going to feel a chill in your spine and smile, and you will be forbidden to speak of it again.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Parker perhaps you are attracted to the mysticism in Catholicism.

If so, there are several Saints who were mystics. St. John of the Cross and St. Thérèse of Lisieux (the Little Flower) have amazing writings. I recommend them. One of my favorite quotes is from our Little Flower:

“Just as the sun shines simultaneously on the tall cedars and on each little flower as though it were alone on the earth, so Our Lord is occupied particularly with each soul as though there were no others like it. And just as in nature all the seasons are arranged in such a way as to make the humblest daisy bloom on a set day, in the same way, everything works out for the good of each soul.”

† St. Thérèse, Little Flower, pray for us as you promised; for us and for the whole world, that we may be drawn deeper into God, who is Love.

 

[GodIsGracious]

Po18Guy,
Again, if you have thought I am using this as a “hunting ground” then you are totally mistaken. Christine from Washington is the only Catholic I have encountered in this forum who seemed to have any potential of actually thinking about the subject matter that is brought up, beyond a mere glance and dismissal. I have appreciated her sincerity and respect her firm beliefs. I respect all of the firm beliefs I see expressed here, but folks the LDS church is here to stay and will grow during your lifetime and understanding people is far better than belittling them with unfounded misconceptions. What baffles me is why that concept seems so hard for some people to grasp.

emphasis mine.

I so love that last line. It’s always said by someone who can’t seem to convince someone else to agree with them. Disagreement does not mean misunderstanding, nor “hard concepts to grasp.” It’s not a concept that’s hard for me to grasp, I just don’t agree with it.

It’s not just people who post regularly on these forums. It’s those lurkers that read but don’t post. I think you know that. What you post is meant to instill a seed into those lurkers who are unsure but are curious, and that’s insidious because it’s using a Catholic forum for proselytizing. It’s very much along the same lines as this other thread about “sheep stealing.” Sure, you can say that a person can “make up their own mind,” but when the mind is already unsure it’s easy to supplant doubt. I’ve noticed you do that in your posts in responses to others. Many times. Infact, you did so with mine by trying to imply that I followed someone simply because I quoted them. And that’s insidious.

I love the fact that you have enthusiasm for your cult, but it doesn’t mean I agree with it or the techniques you use to “explain.”

 

[ParkerD]

Another way to think about it is that Joseph could not translate the page again because he was not really translating anything from golden plates, but was making some of it up and taking some of it from a story on paper that he had either found or stolen which was written on paper (most likely). Joseph had been arrested for being a “peep stone seer.” He was a treasure hunter that claimed that he could see things with the help of a magic stone inside a hat and find treasure. I believe that just recently a document surfaced that recorded his arrest under these charges. It has been many years and he may have been arrested under false charges. The LDS report that Joseph was not well liked by people who knew about his claims about having seen Jesus and God while praying at the age of 14.

swplan,
Obviously all the ministers of religion would be extremely agitated and do whatever they thought best to discredit Joseph Smith’s account when they heard about it, regardless of how they heard about it.

Joseph’s family was a small-farm family who had had several setbacks, and Joseph did look for ways to help his folks pay the bills of the family. So what if someone heard he might be able to help look for “treasure”, and was willing to pay him to try?

His mind was uncluttered by the contagion of the wisdom and learning of the world. This was a necessary aspect of having a mind ready to be taught by God’s messengers. He could think outside of the box, and could believe in a God who would communicate openly with His children, including using an ancient set of writings and angels to do it. It may not make sense to you that God would do such a thing, but it makes complete Biblical sense to me.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker perhaps you are attracted to the mysticism in Catholicism.

If so, there are several Saints who were mystics. St. John of the Cross and St. Thérèse of Lisieux (the Little Flower) have amazing writings. I recommend them. One of my favorite quotes is from our Little Flower:

“Just as the sun shines simultaneously on the tall cedars and on each little flower as though it were alone on the earth, so Our Lord is occupied particularly with each soul as though there were no others like it. And just as in nature all the seasons are arranged in such a way as to make the humblest daisy bloom on a set day, in the same way, everything works out for the good of each soul.”

† St. Thérèse, Little Flower, pray for us as you promised; for us and for the whole world, that we may be drawn deeper into God, who is Love.

Rebecca,
Thanks. I really enjoyed that beautiful thought. I totally agree.

Gracious,
As far as I can tell or have detected, there are no “lurkers” who read without responding on topics where I have responded. I used to think there might be, but I really doubt that very much at this point as I have become more familiar with this website. That would not be the case for every thread, but I’m fairly certain of it for the threads talking about Mormon beliefs. If Catholic20064 had not re-posted on this thread, it had stopped several days ago and I assure you I would be doing other things.

 

[GodIsGracious]

Gracious,
As far as I can tell or have detected, there are no “lurkers” who read without responding on topics where I have responded. I used to think there might be, but I really doubt that very much at this point as I have become more familiar with this website. That would not be the case for every thread, but I’m fairly certain of it for the threads talking about Mormon beliefs. If Catholic20064 had not re-posted on this thread, it had stopped several days ago and I assure you I would be doing other things.

You can’t tell because you don’t see the page hits. There are usually far more lurkers to a forum than those who actually post. I know one, my boyfriend. He’ll read forums but won’t post. And if he does it, there are many more out that who do.

At anyrate, you have 6 children to tend to (so I have no idea how you even find time to post as prolifically on these forums as you do, unless you were like my grandfather.) My grandmother had 9 children. And while she certainly did delegate household duties, she barely made 1 hr time before bed for her daily prayers. Grandfather on the other hand watched boxing. But even then he was rather busy.

 

[Filioque]

The best source on Mormons and other cults is the book by the late DR Walter MARTIN “Kingdon of the Cults” his book is considered the authority on cult teachings , He has chapters on Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christian Science , and others

Another good book, which covers Protestants and the groups listed above is Whalen’s “Separated Bretheren” Which looks at the sects and compairs how they diverge from Catholic teachings. The latest edition is in print from Our Sunday Visitor.

Martin, while he was a fairly good historian was no friend of the Catholic Church including it in the Non-Chrisitan camp in some of his writings. He wrote from a Protestant point of view. If you wish to compair the teachings of various sects to Catholic teachings, and include the various Protestant Churches, their origins, and how they differ from the Catholic Church, Separated Bretheren is a good place to start.

 

[RebeccaJ]

swplan,

His mind was uncluttered by the contagion of the wisdom and learning of the world. This was a necessary aspect of having a mind ready to be taught by God’s messengers. He could think outside of the box, and could believe in a God who would communicate openly with His children, including using an ancient set of writings and angels to do it. It may not make sense to you that God would do such a thing, but it makes complete Biblical sense to me.

The sort of “thinking outside the box” that JS was doing is called fraud. For which he was arrested, tried and sentenced to leave town immediately. God does not call anyone, least of all a Prophet, to lie and steal.

Maybe if you are an atheist, believing that God communicates openly to His children, is thinking outside of the box. Do you think this is what Catholics believe, or is this just another “clever” insult?

 

[po18guy]

Po18Guy,
Again, if you have thought I am using this as a “hunting ground” then you are totally mistaken. Christine from Washington is the only Catholic I have encountered in this forum who seemed to have any potential of actually thinking about the subject matter that is brought up, beyond a mere glance and dismissal. I have appreciated her sincerity and respect her firm beliefs. I respect all of the firm beliefs I see expressed here, but folks the LDS church is here to stay and will grow during your lifetime and understanding people is far better than belittling them with unfounded misconceptions. What baffles me is why that concept seems so hard for some people to grasp.

I guess I could be mistaken, but experience has shown…
Again, I have seen one too many “holy lies” in some other LDS members, so I am rightfully gun-shy.

I understand that you really, truly believe the JS story. I admire the immense amount of faith you have. I take exception with your fact checking…

 

[ParkerD]

“…thinking outside of the box.” Do you think this is what Catholics believe, or is this just another “clever” insult?

Rebecca,
I wrote what came to my mind to express a concept. I wasn’t thinking about Catholics at all. Joseph Smith, as someone has said, was comparing the religions around him where he lived when he prayed about the subject but I don’t get the impression that Catholicism was one of them. However, I suppose that I included a meaning about “tradition” within what I wrote, so if one such as yourself chooses to take offense, I suppose that you could.

Your idea that Joseph Smith was ever “sentenced” leaves me scratching my head, but is an example of what I had talked about when I said I post here to correct misperceptions. “Sentenced” didn’t happen. Accusations and threats did.

 

[Catholic20064]

It must be particularly difficult to be a Mormon missionary these days. The Book of Mormon has always been the main selling point for Mormonism. Now when a Mormon missionary is out teaching the Book of Mormon their potential convert will go to the internet and read all of the difficulties we have discussed here. They will read about archeology which shows the Book of Mormon’s claims about horses, sheep, cows, etc. are without merit. They will read about mtDNA studies which show that Native Americans descended from Siberians. They will read studies which show that Native American languages don’t have a Middle Eastern descent. The Mormon missionary in the United States and Europe is having a particularly difficult time converting people these days. There is just too much truthful information out there which shows the Book of Mormon is a 19th century production by Joseph Smith. I notice you hardly ever see intelligent people becoming Mormon these days.

 

[ParkerD]

What would be valid evidence for you?

This article just scratches the surface of Book of Mormon problems:

catholic.com/library/Problems_with_the_Book_of_Mormon.asp

And if you want to go a little deeper, go to this page:

irr.org/mit/book-of-mormon-page.html

The Native Americans are not descendants of Middle Easterners.

Catholic20064,
I said I would answer these, so here is the start:

Keep in mind that the missionaries want you to have a feeling about the Book of Mormon after reading it. They’ll tell you that you’ll receive the witness of the Holy Ghost in the form of a “burning in the bosom”—a warm, fuzzy feeling—after reading and praying about it. This feeling is the clincher for them. It’s the real “proof” that the Book of Mormon is inspired Scripture, and everything else follows from that conclusion.

But think about it. How often have you felt strongly about something or someone, only to learn your feelings were misguided? Feelings, although a part of our human makeup, can’t be a yardstick in matters like this.

After all, some people might get a good feeling after reading anything from the Communist Manifesto or the Yellow Pages. They could pray about such a feeling, and they could take the lingering of the feeling as some kind of divine approbation, but no such sensation will prove the inspiration of Marx’s or Ma Bell’s writings.

When you tell the missionaries you don’t need to pray about the Book of Mormon, they’ll think you’re copping out, that you’re afraid to learn the truth. Admittedly, you’ll seem like a cad if you simply refuse and leave it at that. You need to provide them with an explanation for refusing.

The devout Mormon believes this text is inspired because Joseph Smith said it is. He believes Smith had the authority to claim divine inspiration for the Book of Mormon because the book itself says Smith was a prophet and had such authority.

Personal revelation is not a “warm, fuzzy feeling” and the Book of Mormon is not the yellow pages or the Communist Manifesto. Those words, chosen for the reason the authors intended, are not evidence of Biblical scholarship nor of understanding the writings of the apostle Paul at all. The chapters I already cited (1 Cor 2 and Galations 1) as well as many others describe what revelation is all about, and it is the witness of the Holy Spirit with understanding communicated by God, not men.

The introduction tells you that the “Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fullness of the everlasting gospel.” There it is again—the “fullness of the everlasting gospel.” Naturally, you ask yourself just what that phrase means.

According to the Mormon church, authentic Christianity can’t be found in any of the so-called Christian churches—only, of course, in the Mormon church.

Mormons teach that, after Jesus ascended into heaven, the apostles taught the true doctrines of Christ and administered his sacred ordinances (roughly the equivalent of Catholic sacraments). After the death of the apostles, their successors continued the work of the gospel, but with rapidly declining success. Within a few generations, the great apostasy foretold in the Bible had destroyed Christ’s Church (contrary to Jesus’ own promise in Matthew 16:18).

The Mormon church asserts that the Church Christ founded became increasingly corrupted by pagan ideas introduced by nefarious members. (Sound familiar?) Over a period of years, the Church lost all relationship with the Church Christ established. Consequently, the keys of authority of the holy priesthood were withdrawn from the earth, and no man any longer had authorization to act in God’s name.

The use of the words “nefarious members” has a particularly intended connotation. I disagree with that connotation completely. It could say “members who still wanted to keep some of their traditions.” It could say “members who misunderstood some of the doctrines.” It could say “members who were using human wisdom and the learning of men as had been warned of by the apostle Paul.”

Matthew 16:18 has been discussed at length on another thread, but briefly “rock” is a translated word which can also be translated as “stone” which Peter himself referred to in 1 Peter 2:6-8, namely the “stone of stumbling”, the “rock of offense” who is the “head of the corner” or the “chief corner stone.” Peter’s knowledge of Christ, revealed by “[his] Father which is in heaven”, is the rock that is the “rock of offense” because it is revealed only by heaven and offended those Jews who did not believe in Christ as being the “chief corner stone.” The “gates of hell will not prevail against” the chief corner stone–Christ, but rather will be subdued and finally be vanquished (during the Millenium) by Christ and His followers (among whom are many, many Catholics).

 

[ParkerD]

It must be particularly difficult to be a Mormon missionary these days. The Book of Mormon has always been the main selling point for Mormonism. Now when a Mormon missionary is out teaching the Book of Mormon their potential convert will go to the internet and read all of the difficulties we have discussed here. They will read about archeology which shows the Book of Mormon’s claims about horses, sheep, cows, etc. are without merit. They will read about mtDNA studies which show that Native Americans descended from Siberians. They will read studies which show that Native American languages don’t have a Middle Eastern descent. The Mormon missionary in the United States and Europe is having a particularly difficult time converting people these days. There is just too much truthful information out there which shows the Book of Mormon is a 19th century production by Joseph Smith. I notice you hardly ever see intelligent people becoming Mormon these days.

Catholic20064,
LDS missions in the United States continue to be among the leading baptizing LDS missions in the world. Europe has always had lower baptism rates–much lower.

These trends are likely to continue. The Book of Mormon states that all people who came to the Americas at any time during history have been “led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord,” and it is “consecrated unto him whom he shall bring.” (2 Ne. 1:6,7)
The Lord’s purposes in guiding whomever was led to settle here (not just Nephites and Lamanites, not just Israelites) are being fulfilled in our day and will continue to be fulfilled.

 

[ParkerD]

Mormons claim that to restore the true Church and true gospel to the earth, in 1820 God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith in a grove of trees near his home. They told him that all professing Christians on the face of the earth were abominable and corrupt and that the true Church, having died out completely shortly after it began, was to be restored by Smith.

The words used by Joseph Smith are “that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt;…they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

This was not a statement about “all professing Christians on the face of the earth.” It was a statement very particularly worded about “creeds” and about “professors” who would “teach” which is completely different than “all professing Christians.” This is an example of either blatant misunderstanding of a simple text, or a deliberate misconstrual. Perhaps the authors know which it is. (I assume it is the former.)

The Book of Mormon describes a vast pre-Columbian culture that supposedly existed for centuries in North and South America. It goes into amazingly specific detail describing the civilizations erected by the “Nephites” and “Lamanites,” who were Jews that fled Palestine in three installments, built massive cities in the New World, farmed the land, produced works of art, and fought large-scale wars which culminated in the utter destruction of the Nephites in A.D. 421. The Latter-Day Saints revere the Book of Mormon as the divinely-inspired record of those people and of Christ’s appearance to them shortly after his crucifixion in Jerusalem.

The awkward part for the Mormon church is the total lack of historical and archaeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon. For example, after the cataclysmic last battle fought between the Nephites and Lamanites, there was no one left to clean up the mess. Hundreds of thousands of men and beasts allegedly perished in that battle, and the ground was strewn with weapons and armor.

Keep in mind that A.D. 421 is just yesterday in archaeological terms. It should be easy to locate and retrieve copious evidence of such a battle, and there hasn’t been enough time for the weapons and armor to turn to dust. The Bible tells of similar battles that have been documented by archaeology, battles which took place long before A.D. 421.

The embarrassing truth—embarrassing for Mormons, that is—is that no scientist, Mormon or otherwise, has been able to find anything to substantiate that such a great battle took place.

The culture is not depicted as “massive” or “vast” but rather I would say quite a small culture; they aren’t Jews but are rather from the tribe of Manasseh but only partly so, and before and after the battles the text specifically says the people left are taking everything with them, all the swords and any armor and anything else. The people are described as burying treasures and then not being able to find them again because the land has been cursed or because the people left are stealing everything and nothing can be kept in anyone’s possession–except that Moroni wanders “withersoever he will” to keep out of harm’s way and to eventually engrave more sacred writings while looking to our day knowing there will be the fulfillment of Biblical prophecies and his and his father’s prophecies.

 

[zerinus]

ParkerD, the reason why I quoted that one paragraph saying, “Oh, this is rich,” is due to the fact that you guys are here “correcting misconceptions” we have about the Mormon religion, when the Mormon religion was FOUNDED ON misconceptions about the Catholic church.

Mormonism is founded on the revelations of Jesus Christ to Joseph Smith. It is not founded on anything else.

 

[zerinus]

And I notice that pretty much the vast majority of mormons ignore scientific evidence that disproves their religion. LOL

Scientific evidence cannot disprove any religion.

 

[zerinus]

Which is why I asked ParkerD and others why, REALLY, are they here. I knew he’d say he wanted to “correct misconceptions.” They never ASK about the Catholic faith. All they do is rationalize, justify, and as with Joseph Smith’s “interpretations” of these phantom mystical plates, much of their explanations seemed to be pulled out of a hat.

There is no discussion going on, just a constant barrage and long winded explanations of the Mormon “faith.”

I think I know what episode that one is. I’ll have to check it out. I do like “South Park.”

I take that as a sign of your deep frustration and disappointmet at your inability to defeat them.

 

[zerinus]

Have you watched the South Park episode regarding it? It’s totally pop-culture crude, but accurate in its flashback story. You and I can see the utter improbability of JS’s story, but many have been lead astray, as Jesus predicted. Their favorite hunting ground is Catholic territory, as so we often see them here. This is not a happy place for them, however.

Most of them are young missionaries, trying to gain converts. This is, of course, against forum rules, but it is no sin for them to lie or deceive in the name of the faith. It shows.

:yawn: