What is the book of Mormon all about

[zerinus]

That really doesn’t explain it at all. Why could no one else receive the “fullness of the Father” after all, they were all just “intelligences” living out their existence before being given a spirit body. Why was Jesus given the fullness and not the next intelligence in line?

First of all, we can and will receive “of His fullness” in due course, if we are faithful:

D&C 76:

56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fullness, and of his glory

---

94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fullness and of his grace

D&C 93:

19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fullness.

20 For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fullness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.

Second, the reason why Jesus had received this honor in the pre-existence is because He had been chosen, called, and foreordained “from before the foundation of the world” (Revelation 13:8) to be the Savior and Redeemer of the world (Ether 3:14). There world needed one Savior; and the Father chose Jesus for that purpose, for reasons best known to Himself.

 

[zerinus]

Sort of ironic: This particular scripture always troubled me as verse 3 seems to imply the Father and the Son are one in substance. One might believe that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are physically separate yet united in their mission: “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.” (Moses 1:39) but this position seems untenable to me when hearing that “[Jesus is] in the Father, and the Father in [him], and the Father and [he] are one.”

The intimacy expressed here seems too close to be mere “purpose”.

No, the unity expressed there is the same as that expressed in these verses:

John 17:

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

 

[zerinus]

Just so I can understand the Mormons teachings I would like clear answers to the following questions:

1. Was the heavenly father (God) ever a man of flesh and bones? That is was there a time when he was just a plain man and not god?

According to LDS scripture God the Father has always been God. There was never a time when He was anything other than God.

It has not been revealed, and I don’t think anyone can claim to know, how God the Father acquired His physical body. The King Follett discourse in which this subject has been discussed is not canonized scripture, and therefore is not official LDS doctrine.

Jesus obtained His physical body by being born of a woman—albeit by a miraculous process, rather than through natural conception. Did the Father obtain His body in the same way? I don’t think anyone can say they know for sure. Any claims to that effect still remains in the realm of speculation.

For the reminder of your questions I think Finrock’s has provided good answers.

 

[majick275]

According to LDS scripture God the Father has always been God. There was never a time when He was anything other than God.

It has not been revealed, and I don’t think anyone can claim to know, how God the Father acquired His physical body. The King Follett discourse in which this subject has been discussed is not canonized scripture, and therefore is not official LDS doctrine.

Jesus obtained His physical body by being born of a woman—albeit by a miraculous process, rather than through natural conception. Did the Father obtain His body in the same way? I don’t think anyone can say they know for sure. Any claims to that effect still remains in the realm of speculation.

For the reminder of your questions I think Finrock’s has provided good answers.

actually LDS scriptures do NOT directly state what Zerinus claims and in fact, at teh very least imply the type of eternal progression that the KFD details.

LDs teaching also does not claim the absence of natural conception for Jesus either. it is speculation BUT…the speculating had been done by LDS leaders who claimed to speak directly to God face to face and get direct answers to direct questions.

 

[Finrock]

Good afternoon xixxvmcm85. I hope you are having a blessed sabbath!

Finrock:

You say something very intriguing here that I have never heard in Mormon circles

I mean this:

[W]hile Heavenly Father was living his mortal probation, he was simultaneously divine.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[ricko]

I mean this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by xixxvmcm85
[W]hile Heavenly Father was living his mortal probation, he was simultaneously divine.

Heavenly father was under probation? Imposed by whom and for what?

 

[Anna_Scott]

My Post#616 (June 14th) on the Thread entitled, “What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians?” was a response to your Post to me on that Thread.

You dropped off the Thread and never responded or posted anything on that Thread again. I wondered what happened to you. I searched for your Posts and found you here.

Posted by Anna Scott to Finrock,

My Mormon friends did answer my questions. They confirmed the very beliefs that you say are “either misconstrued LDS doctrine or not LDS doctrine at all.”

They confirmed the following as beliefs of the LDS Church: God has a wife and lives on another planet (Kolob); there are other gods of other worlds; Joseph Smith wrote that he believed that Adam was god.

Even now, there are websites that confirm these beliefs, and even say Mormons believe that God was once a man, which fits the writings of Joseph Smith.

I would have let this go; but since you are denying that these things are doctrines of the LDS Church; I will tell you more about my experience with the Mormon church.

A Mormon bishop and his wife were my neighbors, before my divorce. I had known them for years. I admired the strength of their family. The bishop seemed like the father I never had. So, after my divorce, they invited me to their church. For weeks, I took lessons at the bishop’s home- with the Mormon Bishop and two Mormon missionaries.

I was at a very vulnerable point in my life. I wanted to belong someplace. I was a single mom, with no family in my city.

So, I went to the Mormon church and finished all the lessons. There were things that concerned me about the church services. I rarely heard the name of Christ spoken. Almost without exception, testimonies began with a statement of belief that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I was told that there are three heavens. I was also told that God, in the flesh, impregnated Mary.

I did eventually decide to join the church. The day before my baptism, a family member called me and told me about the Mormon belief that God has a wife and lives on another planet (kolob,) and men can become gods. I was so shocked; because none of this was discussed in the lessons-except a passing mention of exaltation-with no clear explanation.

So, I called the Bishop’s house and spoke to one of his daughters. I asked if these beliefs were true, and she admitted that they were. I was really shaken, but I did proceed with baptism. After the baptism, things became very strange. Every time I tried to read the Book of Mormon, I would feel ill–as if I were in a place of darkness.

Then one evening, I heard a knock at my door. It was a friend of mine who drove from another state for a surprise visit. During her stay, I told her that I had been baptized into the Mormon church. She told me she had taken the lessons many years ago. She also told me she found one of Joseph Smith’s early books. Smith actually wrote that he believed Adam was god.

I knew I had to break the connection with the Mormon church as quickly as possible. So, I called the bishop’s wife and told her I did not want any further connection with the Mormon church. She came to my house and asked me why. I told her all the things I had learned about the Mormon beliefs. She acknowledged that they were all true.

When I told her about Joseph Smith’s writings that revealed his belief that Adam was god, she could not deny that either. She said she was familiar with the “Adam/god theory.” I told her I felt that I had been deceived. During the lessons, I was told that the Mormon church is a Christian church–with the same beliefs in God and Jesus as other Christian Churches.

It didn’t end there; members of the church kept calling me and showing up at my door. I kept telling them I was not coming back to the church and to please stop contacting me.

It still didn’t stop. I received phone calls. I received things in the mail-which I marked “return to sender” and left for the Postman. Then, I started receiving things in the mail with no return address-a clear attempt to get me to open the package.

I finally had to write a formal letter to the church–telling them I would consider any further contact harassment—(though I had been harassed, since the moment I told them I was not coming back.)

I was Baptized into the Christian Church again. The whole Mormon experience taught me that blind trust in people and their beliefs can be a dangerous thing.

Now, I look to God. I pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit to “distinguish between the spirits,” and to reveal God’s Truth to me. I study the Bible. I study the history of the Church. I participate in Christian Forums.

Yet, at the end of the day, that which I hold as Truth, comes from God, and from God alone.

Perhaps you denied these beliefs, because you do not believe these things. So, I make no judgment concerning your faith or what you actually believe. I have no right to judge anyone. I have simply relayed my experience with the Mormon church.

1 Corinthians 2:11 (ESV) says, “11For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.”

As I said in my post, I hold no ill feelings toward the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints/Mormon Church. However, I did have a very traumatic experience with this church.

May God Reveal His Truth to Us All,
Anna

 

[zerinus]

My Post#616 (June 14th) on the Thread entitled, “What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians?” was a response to your Post to me on that Thread.

You dropped off the Thread and never responded or posted anything on that Thread again. I wondered what happened to you. I searched for your Posts and found you here.

May God Reveal His Truth to Us All,
Anna

Thank you for telling us your story. I am sorry that you seem to have had an unhappy experience with the LDS Church. What did you expect him (or any other Latter-day Saint) to say or do in response to that story?

 

[Finrock]

Good afternoon Anna Scott! Nice to see you again.

My Post#616 (June 14th) on the Thread entitled, “What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians?” was a response to your Post to me on that Thread.

You dropped off the Thread and never responded or posted anything on that Thread again. I wondered what happened to you. I searched for your Posts and found you here.

May God Reveal His Truth to Us All,
Anna

I actually started a whole new thread in response to your post. I titled it “A Response to Anna Scott”. I started a new thread because I felt that I would have been diverting from the theme of that thread.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[Anna_Scott]

Good afternoon Anna Scott! Nice to see you again.

I actually started a whole new thread in response to your post. I titled it “A Response to Anna Scott”. I started a new thread because I felt that I would have been diverting from the theme of that thread.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

Finrock: I wish you would have told me this.

 

[zerinus]

Finrock: I wish you would have told me this.

Here is a link to the thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=347204

 

[Christalone]

and do Mormons think more of it then they do about the Bible, How wrote the book of Mormon

Absolutely…the same way catholic s see their catechisms more important than the bible.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I actually started a whole new thread in response to your post. I titled it “A Response to Anna Scott”. I started a new thread because I felt that I would have been diverting from the theme of that thread.

I am really quite disturbed that you would start a new Thread, containing my name, without ever telling me; not a quick response on the previous Thread, not a private message-nothing.

I just went to this new Thread you started entitled, “A Response to Anna Scott,” only to find that you did not even quote what I said in full. So, I just entered a Post on that Thread with a full quote of my words, and the sentiments I am expressing here.

What you have done is wrong on so many levels, and has all the appearance of intentional deceit. Please do not insult my intelligence by claiming ignorance in how communication works on this website.

I suffered so much trauma at the hands of the Mormon Church, and you have dealt yet another blow.

May God give me the ability to forgive once again.
Anna

 

[xixxvmcm85]

Good afternoon xixxvmcm85. I hope you are having a blessed sabbath!
xixxvmcm85;5379220:

Finrock:

You say something very intriguing here that I have never heard in Mormon circles:

I mean this:

while Heavenly Father was living his mortal probation, he was simultaneously divine.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

So when you say he was simultaneously human and divine, you believe Elohim (while a mortal) was “the Jehovah” of his father’s universe, in that (like his own son Jesus would eventually do) he was sent to organize the formless matter into planets, stars, etc.? Was Heavenly Father, like Jesus, foreordained by his God as the firstborn?

This just interests me because I’ve never heard anyone say Heavenly Father was a god prior to his own exaltation.

Thanks for your clarifications.

Heavenly father was under probation? Imposed by whom and for what?

It’s just terminology some Mormons use. “Mortal Probation” = earthly life. It isn’t to imply punishment for a crime, rather more like an introductory period to prove yourself. Sort of like how 16 year olds who apply for a driver’s license are automatically given a probationary one until they are promoted to the real deal.

ETA: **Uh oh; 666th post! **

 

[Anna_Scott]

Thank you for telling us your story. I am sorry that you seem to have had an unhappy experience with the LDS Church. What did you expect him (or any other Latter-day Saint) to say or do in response to that story?

I did not expect Finrock to start a new Thread entitled, “A Response to Anna Scott,” without bothering to tell me. I did not expect Finrock to then fail to quote my words in full, after he started a new Thread specifically in response to what I wrote.

Sadly, these actions are just one more confirmation of the previous experiences, I had with the Mormon Church. Nothing is ever quite “upfront.”

Anna

 

[Finrock]

Hello again Anna Scott.

I am really quite disturbed that you would start a new Thread, containing my name, without ever telling me; not a quick response on the previous Thread, not a private message-nothing.

That probably would have been a good idea. I guess I just assumed you would see it.

I just went to this new Thread you started entitled, “A Response to Anna Scott,” only to find that you did not even quote what I said in full. So, I just entered a Post on that Thread with a full quote of my words, and the sentiments I am expressing here.

What you have done is wrong on so many levels, and has all the appearance of intentional deceit. Please do not insult my intelligence by claiming ignorance in how communication works on this website.

I suffered so much trauma at the hands of the Mormon Church, and you have dealt yet another blow.

May God give me the ability to forgive once again.
Anna

I meant no offense and I certainly wasn’t being deceitful. I started the new thread with the intention of continuing the coversation without distracting from the “unity” thread. A couple of folks posted comments. After some time of noone taking part in it, I pretty much just forgot about it. Had I been thinking about it I could have indicated to you that I had started a new thread, but I just didn’t think about it. That’s about the extent of it. No deceit, no intention to offend.

I’m sorry if my actions caused you to suffer trauma. Please, forgive me, I meant no harm.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[ricko]

Absolutely…the same way catholic s see their catechisms more important than the bible.

Shame, shame. That is a false statement my friend. If you really believe the that Catholics consider the catechism more important than the bible then you should have no problem showing us where that is taught in Catholicism.

 

[zerinus]

I did not expect Finrock to start a new Thread entitled, “A Response to Anna Scott,” without bothering to tell me. I did not expect Finrock to then fail to quote my words in full, after he started a new Thread specifically in response to what I wrote.

Sadly, these actions are just one more confirmation of the previous experiences, I had with the Mormon Church. Nothing is ever quite “upfront.”

Anna

I agree it was a bit silly of him to respond to your post by starting a new thread without telling you about it; but you sound unduly paranoid to me. I think your reaction is a bit over the top. If that is an indication of how you reacted to the LDS Church, then I admit it makes me suspicious of that too.

 

[Finrock]

Hello again xixxvimcm85.

Thanks for your clarifications.

You’re welcome.

So when you say he was simultaneously human and divine, you believe Elohim (while a mortal) was “the Jehovah” of his father’s universe, in that (like his own son Jesus would eventually do) he was sent to organize the formless matter into planets, stars, etc.? Was Heavenly Father, like Jesus, foreordained by his God as the firstborn?

This just interests me because I’ve never heard anyone say Heavenly Father was a god prior to his own exaltation.

My answer about Heavenly Father is already just speculation on my part and none of it reflects what my Church teaches. Anything further would just be more speculation. Also, I haven’t explored the various philosophical paths to any significant degree, so I really don’t know how I would answer those questions.

It could be interesting, intellectually speaking, to explore those questions, but perhaps the Catholic forums aren’t the best place to do this. Last time some of us Mormons got in to a philosophical tangent about Mormon theology, we were asked if there wasn’t somewhere better we could go do that…

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[Anna_Scott]

I agree it was a bit silly of him to respond to your post by starting a new thread without telling you about it; but you sound unduly paranoid to me. I think your reaction is a bit over the top. If that is an indication of how you reacted to the LDS Church, then I admit it makes me suspicious of that too.

Attempting to discredit my experiences would definitely help the LDS reputation. You can say whatever you wish. I know the truth. God knows the truth. I have said what I needed to say, and I am done with this.