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observer333
Guest
(BTW: I posted a similar question last night (my first posting) and it received several replies. It appears to have been deleted. Was I censored already? What happened?)
What is the Catholic interperetation of the Bible prophecies that predict a Regathering & Restoration of Israel in the End Times?
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ahs
Guest
Which prophesies are you thinking of? Can you give an example? The things that come to mind seem to have been fulfilled when Christ established His Church (Christianity being the fulfillment of Judaism, etc…), and with the opening for us of the Kingdom of Heaven.
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ahs
Guest
You might see if you can ask a moderator? I know that sometimes they will move threads to other, more appropriate, subforums sometimes. And from my experience as a moderator on another site, it would not be unheard of for it to have been accidentally moved where it is “invisible”. Unless there was some un-Christian-like dialog taking place, I wouldn’t imagine that it would just have been deleted. At any rate, if anyone knows where it went, it would be a moderator.
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Genesis315
Guest
I think what you are talking about is in reference to the conversion of the Jews and their recognition of Christ. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
674 The glorious Messiah’s coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by “all Israel”, for “a hardening has come upon part of Israel” in their “unbelief” toward Jesus.569 St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old."570 St. Paul echoes him: "For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?"571 The “full inclusion” of the Jews in the Messiah’s salvation, in the wake of “the full number of the Gentiles”,572 will enable the People of God to achieve “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”, in which “God may be all in all”.573
569 Rom 11:20-26; cf. Mt 23:39.
570 Acts 3:19-21.
571 Rom 11:15.
572 Rom 11:12, 25; cf. Lk 21:24.
573 Eph 4:13; 1 Cor 15:28.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c2a7.htm
674 The glorious Messiah’s coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by “all Israel”, for “a hardening has come upon part of Israel” in their “unbelief” toward Jesus.569 St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old."570 St. Paul echoes him: "For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?"571 The “full inclusion” of the Jews in the Messiah’s salvation, in the wake of “the full number of the Gentiles”,572 will enable the People of God to achieve “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”, in which “God may be all in all”.573
569 Rom 11:20-26; cf. Mt 23:39.
570 Acts 3:19-21.
571 Rom 11:15.
572 Rom 11:12, 25; cf. Lk 21:24.
573 Eph 4:13; 1 Cor 15:28.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c2a7.htm
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observer333
Guest
For example:
Promises to Abraham, etc., Isaiah 11:12, Isaiah 27:6, Isaiah 43:5-7, Isaiah 66:8, Jeremiah 16:14-15, Jeremiah 23:3-8, Jeremiah 29:14, Jeremiah 30:3, Jeremiah 32:37, Ezekiel 11:16-17, Ezekiel 20:41-42, Ezekiel 28:25-26, Ezekiel 34:12-14, (Ezekiel 36 & 37) Ezekiel 37:21-22, Ezekiel 39:25-29, Amos 9:11-15, Zechariah 8:4-8, Zechariah 12-14, Psalm 102, Matthew 24:32 and the NT passages stated above, as well as many others.
Psalm 102 may be my favorite example (known as the “holocaust psalm”) where the first half describes the concentration camp prisoners (WW2) and the second half predicts the restoration of Israel in 1948!
13 You will arise and have compassion on Zion,
for it is time to show favor to her;
the appointed time has come.
14
For her stones are dear to your servants;
her very dust moves them to pity.
15
The nations will fear the name of the Lord,
all the kings of the earth will revere your glory.
16
For the Lord will rebuild Zion
and appear in his glory.
17
He will respond to the prayer of the destitute;
he will not despise their plea.
18
Let this be written for a future generation,
that a people not yet created may praise the Lord:
19
“The Lord looked down from his sanctuary on high,
from heaven he viewed the earth,
20
to hear the groans of the prisoners
and release those condemned to death.”
21
So the name of the Lord will be declared in Zion
and his praise in Jerusalem
22
when the peoples and the kingdoms
assemble to worship the Lord.
Promises to Abraham, etc., Isaiah 11:12, Isaiah 27:6, Isaiah 43:5-7, Isaiah 66:8, Jeremiah 16:14-15, Jeremiah 23:3-8, Jeremiah 29:14, Jeremiah 30:3, Jeremiah 32:37, Ezekiel 11:16-17, Ezekiel 20:41-42, Ezekiel 28:25-26, Ezekiel 34:12-14, (Ezekiel 36 & 37) Ezekiel 37:21-22, Ezekiel 39:25-29, Amos 9:11-15, Zechariah 8:4-8, Zechariah 12-14, Psalm 102, Matthew 24:32 and the NT passages stated above, as well as many others.
Psalm 102 may be my favorite example (known as the “holocaust psalm”) where the first half describes the concentration camp prisoners (WW2) and the second half predicts the restoration of Israel in 1948!
13 You will arise and have compassion on Zion,
for it is time to show favor to her;
the appointed time has come.
14
For her stones are dear to your servants;
her very dust moves them to pity.
15
The nations will fear the name of the Lord,
all the kings of the earth will revere your glory.
16
For the Lord will rebuild Zion
and appear in his glory.
17
He will respond to the prayer of the destitute;
he will not despise their plea.
18
Let this be written for a future generation,
that a people not yet created may praise the Lord:
19
“The Lord looked down from his sanctuary on high,
from heaven he viewed the earth,
20
to hear the groans of the prisoners
and release those condemned to death.”
21
So the name of the Lord will be declared in Zion
and his praise in Jerusalem
22
when the peoples and the kingdoms
assemble to worship the Lord.
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PaulfromIowa
Guest
You are really applying some imagination here to see the modern state of Israel. Have you read Bible commentaries on this Psalm?
One of the most popular Catholic commentaries is Father Haydock’s:
http://haydock1859.tripod.com/index.html
Bible commentary on the Vatican website:
http://www.clerus.org/bibliaclerus/index_eng.html
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observer333
Guest
Imagination? Prophecies such as Isaiah 11:11-12 below have already been fulfilled since 1945 in the form of the modern State of Israel. Who else could this be?
11Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover the second time with His hand The remnant of His people, who will remain, From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea. 12And He will lift up a standard for the nations And assemble the banished ones of Israel, And will gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.
But thanks-I will check your links out. Please check this out…
https://juchre.org/nor/psalm102.htm
Read this commentary and you will immediately see psalm 102 in entirely new light…
some excerpts…
Verses 1 through 12 of Psalm 102 are filled with depression, but the mood suddenly changes at verse 13 as we see the restoration of Zion:
Psalm 102:13-14
“Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come. For thy servants take pleasure in her stones, and favour the dust thereof.”
This is an interesting portion of Scripture when viewed in terms of a law that exists in Jerusalem. Dolan explains that most buildings in Jerusalem must be faced by off-white Jerusalem stones to give the modern city “an ancient, timeless, and quite intriguing look.”
Psalm 102:15-18
So the heathen shall fear the name of the LORD, and all the kings of the earth thy glory. When the LORD shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory. He will regard the prayer of the destitute, and not despise their prayer. This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD.
The above passage is David Dolan’s proof text to show that the generation that saw the Holocaust would be the same generation that saw the restoration of Zion. In other words, Dolan believes that the generation of Jews that saw and/or experienced the Holocaust would be the last generation before the end of this age — the final generation of history as we know it. It would be this Holocaust generation that would live to see the restoration of Zion and the coming of the Lord to reign in that city.
All we are waiting on now is the coming of the Lord!
11Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover the second time with His hand The remnant of His people, who will remain, From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea. 12And He will lift up a standard for the nations And assemble the banished ones of Israel, And will gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.
But thanks-I will check your links out. Please check this out…
https://juchre.org/nor/psalm102.htm
Read this commentary and you will immediately see psalm 102 in entirely new light…
some excerpts…
Verses 1 through 12 of Psalm 102 are filled with depression, but the mood suddenly changes at verse 13 as we see the restoration of Zion:
Psalm 102:13-14
“Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come. For thy servants take pleasure in her stones, and favour the dust thereof.”
This is an interesting portion of Scripture when viewed in terms of a law that exists in Jerusalem. Dolan explains that most buildings in Jerusalem must be faced by off-white Jerusalem stones to give the modern city “an ancient, timeless, and quite intriguing look.”
Psalm 102:15-18
So the heathen shall fear the name of the LORD, and all the kings of the earth thy glory. When the LORD shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory. He will regard the prayer of the destitute, and not despise their prayer. This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD.
The above passage is David Dolan’s proof text to show that the generation that saw the Holocaust would be the same generation that saw the restoration of Zion. In other words, Dolan believes that the generation of Jews that saw and/or experienced the Holocaust would be the last generation before the end of this age — the final generation of history as we know it. It would be this Holocaust generation that would live to see the restoration of Zion and the coming of the Lord to reign in that city.
All we are waiting on now is the coming of the Lord!
po18guy
Well-known member
What else can it be? How about the Second Temple? That was built after Isaiah’s prophecy, in fulfillment of it, and was later destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD. The temple sacrifices stopped, as Christ is the eternal sacrifice. If it is asserted that Jerusalem will be restored and the temple rebuilt, then Christ is denied. Christ, Whose Body is the Temple that has been raised up. (John 2:21)
As well, when Moses and Elijah spoke with our Lord during the transfiguration (Matthew 17, Mark 9, Luke 9), there was talk only of Christ’s death - not of any restoration of Jerusalem or rebuilding of the temple.
To the Samaritan woman at the well, (John 4:21) Jesus said “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father."
What else needs to be said?
As well, when Moses and Elijah spoke with our Lord during the transfiguration (Matthew 17, Mark 9, Luke 9), there was talk only of Christ’s death - not of any restoration of Jerusalem or rebuilding of the temple.
To the Samaritan woman at the well, (John 4:21) Jesus said “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father."
What else needs to be said?
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observer333
Guest
…on that day that the Lord Will again recover the second time with His hand The remnant of His people…
Second time. What else needs to be said?
Second time. What else needs to be said?
po18guy
Well-known member
Let’s ponder: Could it just be the return of the exiles during second temple Judaism?
Oh, I see that you are evangelical or fundamentalist. I can never understand the seeming fascination/obsession with “biblical prophecy.” Aren’t we supposed to live the Gospel of Christ in the here and now? Aren’t we supposed to love our neighbor? Watch the clouds of heaven? I mean, that’s what our Savior Jesus Christ taught us. I do not recall him teaching:
Has it somehow gotten better?
Oh, I see that you are evangelical or fundamentalist. I can never understand the seeming fascination/obsession with “biblical prophecy.” Aren’t we supposed to live the Gospel of Christ in the here and now? Aren’t we supposed to love our neighbor? Watch the clouds of heaven? I mean, that’s what our Savior Jesus Christ taught us. I do not recall him teaching:
- Bible alone
- Bible as sole rule
- Bible anything
- Being absorbed with prophecy.
Has it somehow gotten better?
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Athanasiy
Guest
May be this would be helpful
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JanSobieskiIII
Guest
The modern state of Israel has nothing to do with the kingdom of Israel. It is not a successor state in any sense of the word nor is it relevant to the Bible.
The Catholic Church is the new Jerusalem.
The Catholic Church is the new Jerusalem.
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greenrangerx
Guest
The second time refers to the end of the Exile. The first time was the Exodus. These were the two major events in the history of the ancient Israelites, and were instrumental in shaping their identity and in understanding their relationship to God.
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observer333
Guest
@ greenrangerx
Here it is again:
11Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover the second time with His hand The remnant of His people, who will remain, From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea. 12And He will lift up a standard for the nations And assemble the banished ones of Israel, And will gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.
[/quote]
Not talking about the Exodus or just Egypt. There are many other similar verses as well.
Here it is again:
11Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover the second time with His hand The remnant of His people, who will remain, From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea. 12And He will lift up a standard for the nations And assemble the banished ones of Israel, And will gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.
[/quote]
Not talking about the Exodus or just Egypt. There are many other similar verses as well.
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observer333
Guest
Sorry, my bad …I should have said that they were exiled to just one place the first time: Persia. Just woke up…
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ahs
Guest
Sounds likes it’s talking about the diaspora.
At any rate, Jesus Christ, Who He is and what He has done, is the fulfillment of the prophesies. Will there be some other thing specifically for the Jews? Perhaps, but in in the end it will still be Jesus Christ, without whom there can be no salvation.
You know what my favorite prophecy is, that most people steeped in Biblical prophecy seem to neglect? Malachi 1:11.
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observer333
Guest
That is quite a claim. Can you please give us some evidence that this is the case? It really seems like the prophecies are describing a real, physical city (Jerusalem) and future (third) temple (clearly a future physical place, with all of those measurements that Ezekiel was told to perform over many chapters). How can you reapply all of the promises that God gave to the jewish people and Israel to the Catholic Church. That is the supersessionist theology which contributed to the Holocaust, and I believe that the Church had renounced this.
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JanSobieskiIII
Guest
I wouldn’t call it suppressionism so much as a recognition of reality. After the coming of Christ Jews and gentiles are equal. All that matters is faith in Jesus. You either have it or you don’t. And if you don’t, Jew or gentile, your fate is the same.
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