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Bohm_Bawerk
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"And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words." (Matthew 6:7)
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Dorothy
Guest
We need to recollect ourselves, pray from the heart, with trust in the Lord, and to think about what we are saying.
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ChadS
Guest
I remember reading an article defending the rosary where this verse was used as a way to discredit the rosary. Anyhow the article made the point that when the pagans prayed it was believed that their prayers had to uttered with the right phrasing, emphasis on the correct syllables, not too fast but not too slow, and to be effective the prayers were extremely long.
Compared to Christian prayers where form and wording isn’t always necessary and three small words like “help me Jesus,” can be all the more effective. God hears our prayers and answers them even if we mispronounce a few words were don’t know quite how to say something or start and stop.
I would say this would be a fairly good “Catholic” response for that verse.
ChadS
Compared to Christian prayers where form and wording isn’t always necessary and three small words like “help me Jesus,” can be all the more effective. God hears our prayers and answers them even if we mispronounce a few words were don’t know quite how to say something or start and stop.
I would say this would be a fairly good “Catholic” response for that verse.
ChadS
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JRKH
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Simple - Don’t Babble. 
Dorothy’s response is perfect.
Peace
James
Dorothy’s response is perfect.
Peace
James
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TimothyH
Guest
The pagans used to pray using jibberish.
eieieiei ooooo God help me aaaa eeeeee
And such nonsense. There was a thread a few months back where someone quoted actual pagan prayers and they were just like that, rediculous nonsensical jibberish.
-Tim-
eieieiei ooooo God help me aaaa eeeeee
And such nonsense. There was a thread a few months back where someone quoted actual pagan prayers and they were just like that, rediculous nonsensical jibberish.
-Tim-
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Bohm_Bawerk
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Thank you
. It’s interesting that you say this, because I’m currently doing some minor research of my own into paganism. In all honesty, I do not like what I see. No solid theology whatsoever. Actually, I find it makes me want to vomit, but I won’t say more than that as CAF requires us to be charitable
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RaphaelJ
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The rosary is a different kind of repetition. Jesus condemned the practice of having to call God by how many titles, praises, formula, etc. The pagans truly believed that God wasn’t going to listen if they didn’t stick to a certain formula! No matter what, God listens to us. However, the repetitions of the rosary serve a double purpose. One, they make the mind more relaxed for meditations. Two, it is a devotion of love to our Blessed Mother.
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Bohm_Bawerk
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Thank you very much, especially to Tim and Raphael for your informative responses. But to throw in another question, is there any real difference between a liturgy and a repetitive Pagan spell? After all, the liturgy is a standard set of prayers, and that’s the main distinction between Roman Catholics and ecclesial communities who pray spontaneously? A Catholic I know said that the crisis in the Church today is the crisis within the Liturgy, and so there should be greater moves towards the Traditional Mass and a shifting away from the OF Mass.
Interested in hearing your thoughts…
Interested in hearing your thoughts…
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RaphaelJ
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For the Catholic Mass, we must look at its origin. The Mass originally was just the “breaking of the bread” among the early Christians. Back then, they still had to go to their synagogues every Sabbath. And then, after the sacking of the Temple, they were expelled from the synagogues. So, they adapted the scripture readings and the liturgy from the Jews. They added this to the “breaking of the bread”. Jesus didn’t condemn the liturgy used in the synagogues. He, himself, participated in it. However, the problem comes when people don’t depart from the formula of the liturgy and don’t look past the external rites.
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Theophorus
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Our Lord when asked how to pray didn’t say ‘be spontaneous’ but rather gave us the Our Father. Even the most low church of the ecclesial communities who pray spontaneously repeat this prayer on occasion.
A Catholic Liturgy is a public worship service which is directed by the community(priest and People) to the worship of God. It’s formulaic nature allows the community to come together and worship God as one body, rather than a babble of individual voices. All Catholic prayer, all Christian prayer, should fit into the framework of the Our Father otherwise I would wonder how much it is prayer to God and how much it is self praise.
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AmazingLove
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For me, Matthew 6:7 means Christians like us shouldn’t make prayers a mere “lip service” wherein we are only uttering the words without contemplating/meditating about every line’s meaning. The Holy Rosary I believe is a meditative prayer wherein while uttering a prayer on every bead, we are meditating upon what does Jesus Christ/ Mama Mary want us to learn or reflect upon because every mystery has a significant application to Christian life e.g The First Sorrowful Mystery-The Agony in the Garden wherein inspite of sadness and anguish that Jesus Christ felt because He was about to be handed over to Pilate, He still managed to pray “but yet not my will, but thine be done.” (Luke 22:42) This mystery teaches us to always seek God’s will and obey it no matter what it costs for if we always obey His will, our reward will be great in heaven. If we learn to focus on the lesson that every mystery wants to teach us instead of the repetitive words/lines, the Holy Rosary will be very helpful in our prayer life. God Bless Us All
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TimothyH
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Don’t we engage in a prolonged liturgy at home with members of our family, saying “I love you” repeatedly, every day, throughout the course of our lives? Do our wife, husband or children get tired of hearing it? Life itself is liturgy. We get up every morning, brush our teeth and go to work, get home, eat dinner, go to bed, repeat.
Yes, Jesus prayed spontaneously but he also participated in every Jewish liturgical event perscribed by the law of moses, from his own circumcision to the Jewish feasts to the last meal of his life which was the traditional passover meal at the last supper.
I think liturgy protects prayer. I’ve been to evangelical Churches where there are two country-rock songs, a 45 minute sermon about staying out of debt and a single 30 second prayer at the end. That’s not worship. That’s a giant spiritual self-help group. Catholic liturgy is worship, from the time you enter the building and see the priest in his vestments to the time you shake the hand of the priest who just made Christ as you leave the building. And there we pray with our whole bodies - we kneel and bow and stand, we smell the incense, we listen to the word of God and hear the bells, we taste and smell the Body and Blood of Jesus, we see the crucifix and the priest in his vestments and the statue of Mary and Jesus. We use water and wine and bread and gold and stained glass and wood. It is all prayer. it’s all worship.
I really don’t get into discussions about OF vs EF, latin vs. english. But I can say that Catholic Liturgy is the highest form of prayer there is. I challenge anyone who claims that prayer must be spontaneous to listen to a group recite the Liturgy of the Hours and not feel how sublime it is.
youtube.com/watch?v=V5gXyTSY_xI
youtube.com/watch?v=hIiYbrnANUM
-Tim-
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bmadamsberry
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The verse says that the pagans believe they will be heard because of their many words, not because of the faith behind the prayer. A Catholic Mass is different, because the Mass doesn’t emphasize the many words, hoping that the number will be what is beneficial, but the meaning behind the words and the faith behind the words is what is important.
In other words, this verse is seeking to emphasize that when one prays, one should not ‘babble’, but should mean what they say (even if it’s the same thing over and over again!)
In other words, this verse is seeking to emphasize that when one prays, one should not ‘babble’, but should mean what they say (even if it’s the same thing over and over again!)
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Nathan_Wagar
Guest
Pagan prayers were also designed to manipulate the deity through repetition of sound combinations as well as utterance of the divinity’s name, which would violate the command to not use the Lord’s name in vain. Interestingly, Father Pacwa has shown how in Hebrew, the word for “in vain” had it’s roots in an Akkadian word that meant magic, and so had the implication of trying to put God “in a box” as it were through usage of the Divine Name. An example of this can be seen in the demonically possessed that try to cry out a title for Jesus, and the fact that Jesus asks the demon himself for its name. This cultural point has very little to do with the rosary.
It also is a bit ludicrious given the fact that Jewish liturgy that Jesus took part in was very repetitious, the Psalms were repetitively chanted, and Christ prayed the exact same prayer multiple times in the Garden of Gethsemane.
Repetitive prayers with a reflective heart are a good way for beginners in prayer to “stay on track” and sync their mind and their bodies into a Holy union devoted toward God.
It also is a bit ludicrious given the fact that Jewish liturgy that Jesus took part in was very repetitious, the Psalms were repetitively chanted, and Christ prayed the exact same prayer multiple times in the Garden of Gethsemane.
Repetitive prayers with a reflective heart are a good way for beginners in prayer to “stay on track” and sync their mind and their bodies into a Holy union devoted toward God.
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babylonsfalling
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Wait a minute…I think it was within the last seven days or so that you were still a “former Catholic”…more accurately, a “former DEVOUT Catholic”
Shouldn’t you know some of this stuff if you’re a “former devout Catholic”?
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Bohm_Bawerk
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That’s just rude babylonsfalling. I expected better from you. Actually, I never really knew. It was something that I tried to overlook. I never claimed to be all-knowing. There is always something new to learn. That’s why I started the thread, and I can honestly say I’ve learned a lot
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babylonsfalling
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It’s not an “all knowing” kind of thing though, that’s the problem. Even a NON-devout Catholic knows the difference between babbling and not babbling, so does a non Catholic for that matter. I knew the difference as a Catholic kid and I was anything BUT devout. So if all those types know, how does a devout Catholic NOT know.That’s just rude babylonsfalling. I expected better from you. Actually, I never really knew. It was something that I tried to overlook. I never claimed to be all-knowing. <—It doesn’t require "all knowing" There is always something new to learn. That’s why I started the thread, and I can honestly say I’ve learned a lot
If I remember right, your “atheist: former devout Catholic” moniker, was used in between two uses of an atheist moniker, both of which came before your current non use of ANY moniker. You were claiming “atheist”, then not claiming anything, then claiming "atheist: former devout Catholic, and now back to not claiming anything again. Are you no longer atheist again?
To answer your question, a Catholic Study Bible would tell you that the pagan babbling was likely a recitation of a long list of pagan diety names in hopes that one of them would answer a request. There are other explanations too.
But a former devout Catholic would know that we’re just simply supposed to keep our thoughts on our prayers. A NON-devout Catholic would know that too.
How long were you a “devout Catholic”?
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fhansen
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When I was in a certain Protestant denomination, prayers would sometimes run on and on, as if the mere quantity of words would magically effect some response from God. There was sometimes the feeling that there was a competition to outdo each other in “spontaneous” prayer. It can happen anywhere, I guess.
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Dorothy
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I think it is better to pray for others who are making decisions. Followers of Christ should not be rude.
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panevino
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Reading from verse 1-8 , hypocrites are described who do things to be seen by others
and for position without a love of god. Verse 8, sheds some light on vs 7
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
I understand the word “vain” in vs 7 to relate to the intent of the words prayed
Not simply that repetition is “vain”
Below repetition is clearly not in vain.
Rev 4:fourth beast [was] like a flying eagle. 8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about [him]; and [they were] full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Or Psalm 136 … His mercy endureth…
Or Matt 26:44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.
I believe the Didache refers to saying the Our Father 3 times
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