What is the "Catholic" response to Matthew 6:7?

[Bohm_Bawerk]

It’s not an “all knowing” kind of thing though, that’s the problem. Even a NON-devout Catholic knows the difference between babbling and not babbling, so does a non Catholic for that matter. I knew the difference as a Catholic kid and I was anything BUT devout. So if all those types know, how does a devout Catholic NOT know.

If you look at my previous post, I said I overlooked it. I didn’t regard it as important, because there are biblical verses such as the Parable of the widow and unjust judge that speak about praying persistently. So, previously, if someone came to me and said “the rosary is not right because of Matthew 6:7”, I would point to the Parable of the widow and unjust judge.

And yes, it does require all-knowing. What may be basic to you may not be so basic to someone else. Some devout Catholics ask questions such as “why does suffering exist in the world?”. That seems fairly basic to me, probably due to the amount of time I’ve spent reading philosophy. But I would never criticize that Catholic for asking that question. Although it’s important not to take the following adage too literally, it has a fundamental truth to it: “There is no such thing as a silly question”. If someone doesn’t know something, they’ll ask about it. That’s how people learn. Whether it’s a “basic” question or not is irrelevant. What matters is what they get out of the question. So your worldview is reactionary by virtue of the fact that you focus on the past…on what someone is meant to know…whilst my worldview is forward-thinking…I think about the good that can come out of any question. If everyone remained silent about the questions they had, no one would learn anything. I’m sure Stephen Hawkins would find a lot of science questions “basic”. That doesn’t bar other members of society from asking science questions.

If I remember right, your “atheist: former devout Catholic” moniker, was used in between two uses of an atheist moniker, both of which came before your current non use of ANY moniker. You were claiming “atheist”, then not claiming anything, then claiming "atheist: former devout Catholic, and now back to not claiming anything again. Are you no longer atheist again?

I took it off because I kept receiving a lot of snide comments and rude remarks. Thankfully, it was only a small minority, but it was still significant enough. Which leads me to question your motives about why you seem to hold a grudge against me? I’ve already said to you that you should express the extent of your grudge(s) through a private message rather than continually derailing all my threads with personal questions about me. What has any of your questions got to do with the original question I asked? When will you ever leave me alone? What have I ever done to you personally that makes you hold such a sickening grudge against me?

To answer your question, a Catholic Study Bible would tell you that the pagan babbling was likely a recitation of a long list of pagan diety names in hopes that one of them would answer a request. There are other explanations too.

This is what I didn’t know. Even the explanation that I remember from some time ago to which I can’t remember the precise source, was that Jesus was referring to vanity…i.e., “not praying from the heart”. But from my time praying the rosary, I didn’t exactly pray every Hail Mary with my mind on God. Some of it was just “automatic”. Hence the necessity of this thread. I’ve received several answers and I’m actually glad I asked this question in the first place.

 

[John_oxios]

"And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words." (Matthew 6:7)

Hello Bawerk,
What do you believe? You believe what others tell you what Catholics do? What is a Catholics response to those who insult us by trying to reduce Catholicism to a pagan practices? We pray for you and those who mislead you!

Mat 5:44 : “But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,”

What is Matt 6:7 about, did not the Jews use repetitive prayers? If you were interested in the truth, you might want to look at what the Bible thinks babbling like pagans means. It’s about hypocrites non believer who want to look good in front of an audience.

Would you call/compare praying the Our Father after two thousand yrs. repetitive pagan prayer?

Prayer is petition, in the english people would beseech one another i.e. “I pray thee…”
but the Protestants have made simple prayer Worship for God alone. We believe we can ask others to pray for us… we believe those who die in Christ are still alive and can pray for us and the Church in eternity.

How often have the psalms been repeated as/or in prayer?

Repetitive pagan prayer is the more or louder you repeat a prayer the more likely you are to be heard.

Let’s go to 1Ki 18, this is an example of praying in Repetitive pagan manner :

18:26 And they took the bull which was given them, and they prepared it,** and called on the name of Ba’al from morning until noon, saying, “O Ba’al, answer us!” But there was no voice, and no one answered.** And they limped about the altar which they had made.

The ancient Hebrew word translated falter means “to limp, halt, hop, dance, or leap.” (Dilday) It is the same word used in 1 Kings 18:26 where the prophets of Baal leaped about the altar…Their worship was filled with enthusiasm and activity. Yet because it was not directed to the real God, their prayer meant nothing.

1Ki 18:27 And at noon Eli’jah mocked them, saying, “Cry aloud, for he is a god; either he is musing, or he has gone aside, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened.”
1Ki 18:28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their custom with swords and lances, until the blood gushed out upon them.

"The practice of self-inflicted wounds to arouse a deity’s pity or response is attested in Ugarit when men ‘bathed in their own blood like an ecstatic prophet.’

1Ki 18:29 And as midday passed,** they raved on until the time of the offering of the oblation**, but there was no voice; no one answered, no one heeded.

Prayer repeated with proper attitude [faith] is pleasing to God,
Remember the Tax collector?

Luk 18:13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’

or how about the example Christ gave us Himself???

Mat 26:36** Then Jesus went **with them to a place called Gethsem’ane, and he said to his disciples, "Sit here, while I go yonder and pray.

Mat 26:44 So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words.

Rev 4:8 And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all round and within, and day and night they never cease to sing, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!"

How about:
1Th 5:17 pray constantly,

The whole Catholic Mass is Prayer and Worship to God,which the heavens participate in with us.

I got more this is off the top of my head looking for my notes of ten yrs. past.

The person who has taught you that repetitive prayer is of pagan tradition has been untruthful and has misled you concerning the Catholic Church; which is no surprise to me having been studying in various protestant faiths for ten yrs. My question to you is, "If they preach the truth, why do that lie about the Catholic Church?

And the reason devout don’t know about repetitive pagan prayer is because it is not within our faith to do so. They wouldn’t know where to begin explaining the difference. They’re to busy concentrating on Christ, the Church, helping others, loving our enemies who most often are our neighbors.

God bless,
John

 

[TrueLight]

It’s not an “all knowing” kind of thing though, that’s the problem. Even a NON-devout Catholic knows the difference between babbling and not babbling, so does a non Catholic for that matter. I knew the difference as a Catholic kid and I was anything BUT devout. So if all those types know, how does a devout Catholic NOT know.

If I remember right, your “atheist: former devout Catholic” moniker, was used in between two uses of an atheist moniker, both of which came before your current non use of ANY moniker. You were claiming “atheist”, then not claiming anything, then claiming "atheist: former devout Catholic, and now back to not claiming anything again. Are you no longer atheist again?

To answer your question, a Catholic Study Bible would tell you that the pagan babbling was likely a recitation of a long list of pagan diety names in hopes that one of them would answer a request. There are other explanations too.

But a former devout Catholic would know that we’re just simply supposed to keep our thoughts on our prayers. A NON-devout Catholic would know that too.

How long were you a “devout Catholic”?

He’s obviously struggling with his faith. You need to pray for him instead of playing “gotcha”.

 

[John_oxios]

"And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words." (Matthew 6:7)

Hello Bawerk,

How about the protestant faiths who believe in the practice of ‘babbling aloud’ is speaking ‘in tongues?’

biblically it’s a Bozo No No, without an interpreter. I have yet to hear someone interpret someone else’s speaking in tongues.

Biblically:

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

These persons were speaking in various human languages which could be understood by those witnessing the event.

Act 2:8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?
Act 2:11 Cretans and Arabians, we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God."

1Cr 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

1Cr 14:3 On the other hand, he who prophesies speaks to men for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation.

1Cr 14:4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

1Cr 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues, unless some one interprets, so that the church may be edified.

1Cr 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how shall I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching?

1Cr 14:7 If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will any one know what is played?

1Cr 14:8 And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle?

1Cr 14:9 So with yourselves;** if you in a tongue utter speech that is not intelligible, how will any one know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air.**

1Cr 14:10 There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning;

1Cr 14:11 but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me.

1Cr 14:12 So with yourselves; since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.

1Cr 14:13 Therefore, he who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret.

1Cr 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.

1Cr 14:15 What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

1Cr 14:16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how can any one in the position of an outsider say the “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying?

1Cr 14:17 For you may give thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.

1Cr 14:18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all;

1Cr 14:19 nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind, in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue…

on another note,
as far as prayer to the saints:

Luther said,” Prayer to the saints could not be proven Biblically, and again, it could not be disproved by it.”

But then again, he threw out Maccabees, which showed prayer for the dead, for those who died in battle against evils against the Jewish nation.
God bless,
John

 

[TimothyH]

and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Or Matt 26:44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

These are great points, straight from scripture.

-Tim-

 

[zz912]

IIRC, there is a Psalm that is very repetitive. So repeating a prayer over and over is not the issue.

I also heard somewhere that the pagans spent hours asking something of their god, but they had to get the particular title that the god wanted used JUUUUUUST right, and then they would grant your wish. So the pagans would pray to them the same prayer over and over, changing the title with each one, to try and compel them to do what they wanted.

 

[John_oxios]

IIRC, there is a Psalm that is very repetitive. So repeating a prayer over and over is not the issue.

I also heard somewhere that the pagans spent hours asking something of their god, but they had to get the particular title that the god wanted used JUUUUUUST right, and then they would grant your wish. So the pagans would pray to them the same prayer over and over, changing the title with each one, to try and compel them to do what they wanted.

“The Just man stumbles seven times a day,” (Sirach)

Bedes english meaning prayer, Monks used beads to keep count of the psalms as they prayed all 150 of them. Nothing wrong with using a tool to help one pray.

Decade = a group, set, or series of ten. biblically multiplying by ten stress the primary meaning all the more!

biblically # ten = is a number of perfection.

“Those who do not understand numerals, do not understand the Bible” (St. Augustine)

God bless,
John

 

[Abu]

Bohm Bawerk
After all, the liturgy is a standard set of prayers, and that’s the main distinction between Roman Catholics and ecclesial communities who pray spontaneously?

The Liturgy was given to us by Christ first at the Last Supper when He changed bread and wine into His Body And Blood and mandated His Apostles to do the same “in memory of Me”, making them priests and victims with Himself.

Thus the Liturgy is essentially the same sacrifice as Christ on the Cross but in an unbloody manner, enabling us to partake of His Body and His Blood – food for our souls.

The prayers and Sacred Scripture readings were developed by His Magisterium and we now have a Latin (Tridentine Mass) as well as a renewed Ordo Missae (vernacular).

Ecclesial communities do not have the Holy Mass because they do not have valid priests who can consecrate the bread and wine.

 

[John_oxios]

Thank you very much, especially to Tim and Raphael for your informative responses. But to throw in another question,** is there any real difference between a liturgy and a repetitive Pagan spell?** After all, the liturgy is a standard set of prayers, and that’s the main distinction between Roman Catholics and ecclesial communities who pray spontaneously? A Catholic I know said that the crisis in the Church today is the crisis within the Liturgy, and so there should be greater moves towards the Traditional Mass and a shifting away from the OF Mass.

Interested in hearing your thoughts…

Hello,
You’ve GOT to be kiding!! Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, is to know something is of God and then denying it. Shame on you!!! We all answer for every word we utter.

       All  the Liturgy comes directly from the Bible!  pagan prayer?    I dunno!

During the Mass, Catholics all over the world pray in one voice, with those in heaven. Whatever is bound on Earth by Christ’s Church through his apostles is bound in heaven.

Rev 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and** all therein, saying,** “To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!”

Jhn 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Mat 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

In the Catholic Mass, we admit we are sinners proclaiming/ confessing aloud the penitential rite there’s a rite of blessing (just as the Hebrews did in Temple) renew baptismal vows,and the sprinkling of holy water, We have a processional hymn in which the priest leads with the Cross, and Christ captives follow behind.

We sing the Gloria, "glory to God in the highest…’ then have an opening prayer, opening prayers re not the same every Mass… then there’s four scripture readings… One O.T reading, a psalm is sung, a New testament reading and the Gospel reading.
Then we all proclaim aloud a profession of faith by saying the nicene Creed, we pray for others and then starts the preparation of the gifts the eucharistic Prayer and consecration of the Eucharist.

Find me ne line of liturgy that is not biblically based! In fact in my experience most congregational church’s read a paragraph of scripture and then the minister goes on and on about anything else… the Mass is one hour of total Scripture with a teaching in the homily.

The Lutheran Church’s use the same Liturgy readings as the put together by the Catholics.

The only crisis in the Liturgy is the fact that people want to make it more protestant like, for ecumenical reasons.

Even Martin Luther believed when we sing in Worship we pray with our heart mind and soul.

God bless,
John

 

[StevenFrancis]

"And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words." (Matthew 6:7)

May I ask, do you personally know any Catholics who do this? I don’t myself, and I’m Catholic. If you’re referring to the rosary or something, I think that’s been long put to bed, by all but a few anti-Catholic biased, fundamentalist groups.

It really goes to the individual prayer, or course. I know I don’t babble, am vehemently non-pagan, and I know that no prayer of mine, (of any kind) is heard, but for the grace of God, and to the extent that believe I am talking to God when I pray.

Anyway, I’ll read the rest of the thread to see the official answers. I’m just answering from the heart.

Peace to you,

Steven

 

[petitsourice]

The response is to explain what the Rosary is and is not.

It is NOT a bunch of vain repetition.

Its a different kind of prayer than most protestants are used to called meditative prayer.

Ask the person quoting Mat 6:7 if they can name the 20 mysteries of the Rosary. Do it nicely. Then go over these mysteries and explain that the recitation of the Hail Marys and Our Fathers is a lot like a mantra being repeated. While reciting these, one is to reflect on the mystery being contemplated.

Even my 5 year old knows how the set of prayers is to be said aloud but the mystery is to be contemplated.

Deal with the Tradition of Mary being assumed into Heaven at another session. =)

 

[John_oxios]

The response is to explain what the Rosary is and is not.

)

hello Petit,

When we pray the Rosary, we pray the Gospels! (Fr. Corapi)

 

[John_oxios]

"And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words." (Matthew 6:7)

What no response?? What is Bohm Bawerk’s response to:

Hello Bawerk,
What do you believe? You believe what others tell you what Catholics do? What is a Catholics response to those who insult us by trying to reduce Catholicism to a pagan practices? We pray for you and those who mislead you!

Mat 5:44 : “But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,”

What is Matt 6:7 about, did not the Jews use repetitive prayers? If you were interested in the truth, you might want to look at what the Bible thinks babbling like pagans means. It’s about hypocrites non believer who want to look good in front of an audience.

Would you call/compare praying the Our Father after two thousand yrs. repetitive pagan prayer?

Prayer is petition, in the english people would beseech one another i.e. “I pray thee…”
but the Protestants have made simple prayer Worship for God alone. We believe we can ask others to pray for us… we believe those who die in Christ are still alive and can pray for us and the Church in eternity.

How often have the psalms been repeated as/or in prayer?

Repetitive pagan prayer is the more or louder you repeat a prayer the more likely you are to be heard.

Let’s go to 1Ki 18, this is an example of praying in Repetitive pagan manner :

18:26 And they took the bull which was given them, and they prepared it, and called on the name of Ba’al from morning until noon, saying, “O Ba’al, answer us!” But there was no voice, and no one answered. And they limped about the altar which they had made.

The ancient Hebrew word translated falter means “to limp, halt, hop, dance, or leap.” (Dilday) It is the same word used in 1 Kings 18:26 where the prophets of Baal leaped about the altar…Their worship was filled with enthusiasm and activity. Yet because it was not directed to the real God, their prayer meant nothing.

1Ki 18:27 And at noon Eli’jah mocked them, saying, “Cry aloud, for he is a god; either he is musing, or he has gone aside, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened.”
1Ki 18:28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their custom with swords and lances, until the blood gushed out upon them.

"The practice of self-inflicted wounds to arouse a deity’s pity or response is attested in Ugarit when men ‘bathed in their own blood like an ecstatic prophet.’

1Ki 18:29 And as midday passed, they raved on until the time of the offering of the oblation, but there was no voice; no one answered, no one heeded.

Prayer repeated with proper attitude [faith] is pleasing to God,
Remember the Tax collector?

Luk 18:13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’

or how about the example Christ gave us Himself???

Mat 26:36 Then Jesus went with them to a place called Gethsem’ane, and he said to his disciples, "Sit here, while I go yonder and pray.

Mat 26:44 So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words.

Rev 4:8 And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all round and within, and day and night they never cease to sing, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!”

How about:
1Th 5:17 pray constantly,

The whole Catholic Mass is Prayer and Worship to God,which the heavens participate in with us.

I got more this is off the top of my head looking for my notes of ten yrs. past.
The person who has taught you that repetitive prayer is of pagan tradition has been untruthful and has misled you concerning the Catholic Church; which is no surprise to me having been studying in various protestant faiths for ten yrs. My question to you is, "If they preach the truth, why do that lie about the Catholic Church?

And the reason devout don’t know about repetitive pagan prayer is because it is not within our faith to do so. They wouldn’t know where to begin explaining the difference. They’re to busy concentrating on Christ, the Church, helping others, loving our enemies who most often are our neighbors.
still waiting
God bless,

John

 

[Julia_Mae]

Thank you very much, especially to Tim and Raphael for your informative responses. But to throw in another question, is there any real difference between a liturgy and a repetitive Pagan spell? After all, the liturgy is a standard set of prayers, and that’s the main distinction between Roman Catholics and ecclesial communities who pray spontaneously?.

I disagree. Roman Catholics pray spontaneously all the time. If people gave it some thought, they might be surprised how often during the day they do pray. The Mass is a structured setting. That structure is unitive, it is the physical expression of a spiritual reality and desire, among other things.

To get back to your original question, what was Jesus talking about? I think taking bits of Scripture out of context can be misleading so:

“[But] take care not to perform righteous deeds in order that people may see them;a otherwise, you will have no recompense from your heavenly Father. When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing, so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.

“When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, who love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on street corners so that others may see them. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you. In praying, do not babble like the pagans, who think that they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them. Your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

So, Jesus gives us the image of God the Father. This is an intimate relationship with a real Person, who knows our hearts and whom we do not control. We don’t have to. He is with us through His desire to be, and so knows everything we need, even better than we do, ourselves.

So what happens at Mass when we come together in prayer? Hard to hide in the closet when we are called to the Table. Our humility is protected by the structure. Instead of a lot of spontaneous praying, which may, after all, open the door to pride and competition for who prays loudest and longest, we all pray together in one unified voice. IOW, the very structure, liberates us. That’s how I feel about it, anyway.

 

[Big_Dummy]

davidcox.com.mx/library/H/House,%20Wayne%20-%20Tongues%20and%20The%20Mystery%20Religions%20of%20Corinth.pdf

books.google.com/books?id=T9RGB6I6d2AC&pg=PA130&lpg=PA130&dq=glossolalia+god+wine+hellenism&source=bl&ots=qcL5FiR6g4&sig=h8MzkMqeyTjzTfKEgW5T5KvIVIQ&hl=en&ei=L21iTvfUMMLz0gHhuKyKCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1968/JASA3-68Jennings.html

 

[garysibio]

"And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words." (Matthew 6:7)

There is no response. We take what Jesus said at face value.

 

[PJM]

=Bohm Bawerk;8308033]"And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words." (Matthew 6:7)

My guess is that you have in mind here repition of prayer?

***See Psalm 136: Repeats “For His Kindness endures forever” 26 TIMES ***

***There is a necessary distinction between repetition as we Catholics do in the Rosary of the Chaplet of Divine Mercy, and SENSELESS babbling.

God has no problem with ANY sincere and heartfelt petitions no matter how many times they are uttered. Pray is after all the LIFTING UP of our minda nad our Hearts to God. So long as what we do is righteous; God is pleased***.

God Bless you friend,
Pat

 

[Ignatius]

"And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words." (Matthew 6:7)

Amen! Empty babbling is absolutely forbidden in Catholic teaching.

 

[mark_a]

"And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words." (Matthew 6:7)

The “Catholic” response is “You pray in your way, I’ll pray in His way.”

 

[petitsourice]

Don’t we engage in a prolonged liturgy at home with members of our family, saying “I love you” repeatedly, every day, throughout the course of our lives? Do our wife, husband or children get tired of hearing it? Life itself is liturgy. We get up every morning, brush our teeth and go to work, get home, eat dinner, go to bed, repeat.

-Tim-

My family liturgy is more like: Stop that. Put that down. Don’t hit your sister. What is your name, child? No I don’t know where that is. Don’t touch your brother.

=)