What is the Catholic teaching on 1 Cor. 1:8?

[Julius_Caesar]

No. God does through water. Hence water and Spirit.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Water of.regeneration isn’t baptism. Right.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Who cleanses? God or man?

 

[PSUCath]

Where is the word baptism

Mark 16:16 - Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Matthew 28:19-20 - Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.

So water cleanses sin?

1 Peter 3:21 - Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

The early Church saw being born again as being baptized.

Justin Martyr

“As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit , they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ ” ( First Apology 61 ).

Irenaeus

“‘And dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ . It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’” ( Fragment 34 ).

Tertullian

“No one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’” ( Baptism 12:1 ).

Hippolytus

“The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and he, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism” ( Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8 ).

The Recognitions of Clement

“But you will perhaps say, ‘What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet testified to us with an oath: ‘Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’” ( The Recognitions of Clement 6:9 ).

Cyprian of Carthage

” they receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’” ( Letters 71:1 ).

 

[fhansen]

So water cleanses sin?

God cleanses sin. He can use whatever means He wants to make it happen-and the sacraments, in this case Baptism, can certainly be a physical act that we perform for the purpose of obtaining that grace-of knowing that we’ve obtained it. You have an argument with the historic Christian Church, in both the east and west BTW. Meanwhile Sola Scriptura adherents argue between themselves over this matter of baptismal regeneration. So much for Scripture alone.

 

[PSUCath]

What does baptism represent in the text?

I’m not quite sure what you’re asking here… baptism represents baptism.

The Apostles understood this, the Early Church understood this, the Catholic Church understands this, the Eastern Orthodox Church understands this, even most Protestant churches understand this.

 

[PSUCath]

Why does Peter compare that to Noah?

Ah, I see what you’re asking. Peter compares baptism to Noah’s Ark because Noah’s Ark establishes the OT precedent for baptism. Peter explains that Noah and his family were saved through the flood of the world (water), and in the same way we are saved by being baptized with water.

In the same way that a person who was not on Noah’s Ark could not claim to be saved, a person who is not baptized cannot claim to be saved. Hope that answers your question.

 

[PSUCath]

Peter even says “not the removal of dirt from the body” but an appeal to God

That’s correct! I think it seems like you’re starting to get it. Peter is trying to indicate here that baptism is not merely a symbol, as it was in the Old Testament. The baptism of the New Covenant represents a cleansing of not just dirt from the body, but of sin from the soul. For this reason, he indicates that baptism saves us.

 

[PSUCath]

Peter gives no indication cleanse from the soul.

An appeal to God for a good conscience is the same as an appeal to God to cleanse us from sin. This verse clearly ascribes salvation to the act of baptism.

 

[PSUCath]

he is saying it’s not the ritual that saves you. It’s the appeal to God.

This isn’t what the verse says. If Peter meant to say it’s the appeal to God that saves you, he would have said it’s the appeal to God that saves you. He didn’t. He says, “Baptism… now saves you,” clearly showing that baptism is what saves through internal cleansing.

 

[PSUCath]

Benny, you’re confusing me. Please explain to me how Peter could say “baptism now saves you,” but not actually mean baptism. Again, if Peter meant to say it’s the appeal to God that saves you, he would have said it’s the appeal to God that saves you. He didn’t.

 

[PSUCath]

God cleanses us from sin through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The method by which he does this is through baptism. Baptism does not save us simply by removing external dirt, but rather as a means for God to give us a clear conscience through the removal of interior sin. This is clear from the verse you brought up, 1 Peter 3:20:

this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[Tommy999]

God cleanses us from sin through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The method by which he does this is through baptism.

Then through a continuing process of sincerely seeking and receiving God’s forgiveness when we sin, right?

 

[PSUCath]

Then through a continuing process of sincerely seeking and receiving God’s forgiveness when we sin, right?

Absolutely correct. Just because I was saved at baptism doesn’t mean I will continually be saved for the rest of my life.
If baptism was all we needed, then there would be no purpose for us to ever repent of our sins. We must preserve the grace that God gives us through baptism, and ideally grow in that grace by participating in the Sacraments He established.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Jesus said “He who believes AND is baptized will be saved.” It was clear Simon was only in it for his own personal gain.

 

[lanman87]

Thank you. We believe “the righteousness of Christ and His sacrifice” finally makes righteousness available to man,

Here is the difference in understanding as I see it.

American Evangelicals believe that Jesus Saves.

Catholics, from what I’ve gleaned, believe that Jesus makes salvation possible.

 

[fhansen]

I’m not sure, evangelicals seem to be a mixed bag in their beliefs, definitely diverging from the rest of Protestantism here and there.

Either way Catholicism believes that Jesus alone, saves, but that we can compromise that salvation, our wills still play a role IOW, grace is resistible to put it another way.

Evangelicals agree that Jesus saves, saves those who believe at least, or who consider themselves to be believers at any rate. I’m not sure whether or not they agree with each other that salvation cannot be lost.

Another related issue involves the fact that Catholicism teaches that at justification man is made truly just or righteous, even if only in seedling and untested and unexercised form at that point, restored to the state of justice that Adam originally possessed and now intended to walk with God, and draw nearer yet, growing more in that justice or righteousness received as we work out our salvation together with He who works in us.

Evangelicals OTOH would tend to hold the Protestant position that righteousness is merely imputed at justification. And since it’s imputed, it cannot be lost according to most, but that still depends on the individual interpreter who may diverge on that point. Like I said, Evangelicals are a mixed bag. They’ve taken the Reformed doctrine of Sola Scriptura and ran with it, resulting in a sort of stripped down version of the gospel but also with novel understandings, frequently resulting in spin-off denominations.

 

[lanman87]

I’m not sure, evangelicals seem to be a mixed bag in their beliefs, definitely diverging from the rest of Protestantism here and there.

Sure, you can find anyone who believe anything if you look hard enough. However, one common thread among American Evangelical churches from most traditions is that we don’t save ourselves by being religious enough or good enough to enter heaven. If that is the case then we are all doomed because none of us will ever be good enough to enter heaven. God’s standard is perfection and none of us can meet that standard. The only hope we have is Christ, who meets that standard of perfection for us who are “In Him” by faith. That is why “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” Romans 8:1

If we truly belong to Christ then we will never be condemned. Our circumstances may change, we may get depressed or angry, we may get mad at God for some perceived injustice and so on. Life is messy and we are fragile and selfish. But through it all, if we belong to Christ, we will never be condemned.

 

[fhansen]

That is why “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” Romans 8:1

And 8:1 is true, as encouragement to remain in Christ, since we’d have to bury our heads in the sand after reading that verse in order to hide our eyes from the other verses that warn and admonish us to persevere in walking uprightly in order to continue with and keep our eternal inheritance. We all agree that we must stay in communion with God.
"Apart from Me you can do nothing."

But being with Him means much more than just going to church and/or thinking we believe. Just a few chapters earlier we read:
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

And Jesus tells the rich young ruler that he must obey the commandments in order to gain eternal life. I mean, I’d rather be satisfied that I’m heeding God’s word and doing things His way than focus on patting myself on the back for my supposed faith and humility at continuously acknowledging my helplessness and utter unworthiness and unrighteousness and our need for Christ to do it all. It’s not that we can do anything without Him-it’s just that we can do something, with Him. And only with Him.
"I can do all things through Him who gives me strength." Phil 4:13

We can’t even “live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28) without Him, but we can think we can; we can refuse to acknowledge His very existence while in truth only with Him do we actually “live and move and have our being”-we’d die physically without Him; our very existence depends on Him. And the same is true in the moral world. While in this case man is free to operate without God, no longer subjugated to Him, man is nonetheless dead spiritually to the extent that this non-subjugation is the order of the day, which it is for fallen man ever since Adam shattered our relationship with God. But true subjugation, the obedience that Adam failed at, only takes place to the degree that we love God-and this is why man’s justice or righteousness is defined by love as the greatest commandments make known. True justice depends on our love even if love, like faith, is both a gift and a choice. Why should we object to God expecting something back from us? Should we actually pride ourselves in our ugliness, as if He would want us to stay there after everything His Son did? Look at this verse alone:
"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

That’s a warning, to believers, requiring more than faith. And He empowers us to do these things and other acts of love to the extent that we choose, everyday, to remain in fellowship with Him. The righteousness that God gives us, and wants us to express and exercise and stretch, is love. And so again, as Christ’s Church rightly teaches,
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."