What is the Catholic understanding of Predestination?

[thunderbolt94]

Recently, a facebook friend of mine was trying to convince me not to become a catholic (I’m planning to join the Catholic church after going through RCIA in the fall). He’s an eastern orthodox Christian who has a thing against the Roman Catholic church and was trying to tell me that that Catholics and Calvinists have the same view on unconditional election.

“. . .if you are planning to become Roman Catholic, you are actually bound by the Popes to not call doctrines like unconditional election heresy. This is because unconditional election is a key and essential part of Thomistic theology, arguably the dominant theology of the post-schism Roman Catholic Church. This places a heavy emphasis on unconditional predestination. It’s interesting to me, because Calvinists and Thomists seem to interpret Romans 9 identically.”

*note: I never said that I was decrying unconditional election as heresy. I don’t know where he got that idea.

He also proceeded to provide me a quote from Thomas Aquinas:

“God wills to manifest his goodness in men: in respect to those whom he predestines, by means of his mercy, in sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of his justice, in punishing them. This is the reason why God elects some and rejects others. . . . Yet why he chooses some for glory and reprobates others has no reason except the divine will.”

Is this quote in context, and if so, what was Aquinas trying to get at?

I personally never believed in predestination, even when I was a protestant (at least not doctrine as espoused by calvinism). However, I’m hoping to being proven wrong on predestination, and I would like help understanding what the catholic position on Predestination is. I personally believe that predestination and free will contradict one another, but again, I’m open to being corrected.

Thanks in advance, and God Bless.

 

[ddarko]

Hi there,

The question of pre-destination/ providence vs. free-will has many possible answers. Neither the Thomistic solution or other solutions are dogmatically declared positions of the church. The faithful are only called to hold that Providence and Free-will are both existent and compatible and God does not elect people to damnation. The presented solutions only deal with how to logically reconcile the existence of these truths. There is also a difference between Calvinism and Thomistic solution. In Calvinism (I am being a bit generic here since there are so many strands of it), free-will is non-existent since God DOES elect people to damnation as well as heaven.

Now a solution you might find attractive, and one the church has entertained as a possibility just as much as Thomistic solution, is Molinist solution. This does a good job at reconciling God’s providence as well as free-will from contradictions. Plus it also works well at explaining some scripture passages and value of intercessory prayer, Papal infallibility etc.

If you are interested, get the book “Divine Providence” by Thomas P. Flint which does a thorough analysis of Molinist solution and its objections.

But in short, your friend seems to be rather confused about the Catholic Church’s position. This should help you understand the Catholic dogma on predestination and hopefully clarify things to him:-

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

Hope that helps

God Bless

 

[FCEGM]

These two articles on the subject might be helpful to you:

philvaz.com/apologetics/a83.htm

bringyou.to/apologetics/num21.htm

 

[thunderbolt94]

Hi there,

The question of pre-destination/ providence vs. free-will has many possible answers. Neither the Thomistic solution or other solutions are dogmatically declared positions of the church. The faithful are only called to hold that Providence and Free-will are both existent and compatible and God does not elect people to damnation. The presented solutions only deal with how to logically reconcile the existence of these truths. There is also a difference between Calvinism and Thomistic solution. In Calvinism (I am being a bit generic here since there are so many strands of it), free-will is non-existent since God DOES elect people to damnation as well as heaven.

Now a solution you might find attractive, and one the church has entertained as a possibility just as much as Thomistic solution, is Molinism. This does a good job at reconciling God’s providence as well as free-will from contradictions. Plus it also works well at explaining some scripture passages and value of intercessory prayer, Papal infallibility etc.

If you are interested, get the book “Divine Providence” by Thomas P. Flint which does a thorough analysis of Molinism and its objections.

But in short, your friend seems to be rather confused about the Catholic Church’s position. This should help you understand the Catholic dogma on predestination and hopefully clarify things to him:-

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

Hope that helps

God Bless

Thank you so much.

I guess for me, the problem I always had with Predestination is the idea that if god “predestines” (hence the name) events to happen and certain people to be saved, then it (on the surface) contradict the idea of human free will. I do plan to read the article, but the topic itself is very confusing to me. I mean, if predestination is true, would that mean that God is responsible for various events to happen (such as the recent tsunami in Japan, or the holocaust)? Maybe I don’t fully understand it, so I’m hoping someone can clarify a little more and explain more clearer.

 

[ddarko]

Thank you so much.

I guess for me, the problem I always had with Predestination is the idea that if god “predestines” (hence the name) events to happen and certain people to be saved, then it (on the surface) contradict the idea of human free will. I do plan to read the article, but the topic itself is very confusing to me. I mean, if predestination is true, would that mean that God is responsible for various events to happen (such as the recent tsunami in Japan, or the holocaust)? Maybe I don’t fully understand it, so I’m hoping someone can clarify a little more and explain more clearer.

No problem

So, your question is more of God’s Providence vs. Free-will. So let me try to explain molinist solution briefly.

Molinist solution is based on the idea that there are truths about person X of the following form

“Person X in situation Y would freely do action A”

which are contingently true. This is a reasonable idea I think and I can be backed through Scripture.

Now God prior to his act of creation knows all such truths about all persons. So by creating the Universe/world in such a way that it brings about these different situations for a person, he can bring about certain actions from them while keeping free-will intact.

Now it is possible that for some persons, no such truths exists that they will freely choose to be saved. All the truths about them might be of them freely choosing evil actions. Thus, God still actualizes their existence out of love, but cannot make them choose heaven. Note, this is not really a limitation of God but simply a logically meaningless thing for God to save them while giving them free-will.

So our faith is that for each and every person, God has done everything possible (given all the graces) for them to be saved. If they end up being damned, it is simply because that is who they freely choose to be.

Now this brings us to the last part of your question. If God actualizes persons and situations, why does he let evil actions take place? A possible answer is that God knows that in such sufferings, there are truths about many that they will freely choose to be saved. So as long as God can bring about greater good for his creation and the ones who suffer (important to note that suffering in Catholic theology has salvific value), he is fully justified in doing so. The suffering is a form of God’s grace in that sense.

Did that clarify things somewhat or confuse the issue more?

God Bless

 

[valentino]

The Church believes some people are predestined to go to Heaven and some are predestined to go to Hell.They are predestined because from their early childhood they accept the grace or in the case of the damned they are not going to accept the grace no matter what.The Church believes this occurs in just very few incidences but it does accept this.

 

[po18guy]

Saint Thomas Aquinas is a doctor of the Church, but he wrote no scripture. Saint Paul wrote inspired scripture that teaches us that God wills that all men come to salvation. It is our improper use of God-given free will that dooms us. The Catholic Church rejects man-made Calvinist “double predestination” outright.

I simply do not get the animus that certain Orthodox have against the Catholic Church. I see most Catholics as being either somewhat mystified or intrigued by the Orthodox, while the most vocal of the Orthodox have a rather disdainful view of the Catholic Church.

 

[Barbkw]

This is as much as the Catechism of the Catholic Church writes about predestination unless the Church uses different terminology for predestination compared to protestant denomination Predestination.

Reading through the sections, it seems to me that predestination is affirmed in the positive toward God’s grace. Our free will - either enacted toward God or away from God - determines our connection to the Trinity.

scborromeo.org/ccc/index/p.htm

Predestination, 257, 600, 1007, 2012, 2782, 2823

257 "O blessed light, O Trinity and first Unity!"93 God is eternal blessedness, undying life, unfading light. God is love: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God freely wills to communicate the glory of his blessed life. Such is the “plan of his loving kindness”, conceived by the Father before the foundation of the world, in his beloved Son: “He destined us in love to be his sons” and “to be conformed to the image of his Son”, through “the spirit of sonship”.94 This plan is a “grace [which] was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began”, stemming immediately from Trinitarian love.95 It unfolds in the work of creation, the whole history of salvation after the fall, and the missions of the Son and the Spirit, which are continued in the mission of the Church.96

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."395 For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.396

1007 Death is the end of earthly life. Our lives are measured by time, in the course of which we change, grow old and, as with all living beings on earth, death seems like the normal end of life. That aspect of death lends urgency to our lives: remembering our mortality helps us realize that we have only a limited time in which to bring our lives to fulfillment:

Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, . . . before the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.570

2012 "We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him . . . For those whom he fore knew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified."64

2782 We can adore the Father because he has caused us to be reborn to his life by adopting us as his children in his only Son: by Baptism, he incorporates us into the Body of his Christ; through the anointing of his Spirit who flows from the head to the members, he makes us other “Christs.”

God, indeed, who has predestined us to adoption as his sons, has conformed us to the glorious Body of Christ. So then you who have become sharers in Christ are appropriately called "Christs."34
The new man, reborn and restored to his God by grace, says first of all, “Father!” because he has now begun to be a son.35

2823 "He has made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure that he set forth in Christ . . . to gather up all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will."98 We ask insistently for this loving plan to be fully realized on earth as it is already in heaven.

 

[Te_Deum]

I simply do not get the animus that certain Orthodox have against the Catholic Church. I see most Catholics as being either somewhat mystified or intrigued by the Orthodox, while the most vocal of the Orthodox have a rather disdainful view of the Catholic Church.

It is actually quite strange. I suppose it’s just jealousy.

 

[thunderbolt94]

No problem

Did that clarify things somewhat or confuse the issue more?

God Bless

A little bit. I agree that God can use suffering and evil to bring about a greater good. What confuses me is the idea that if God has predestined certain events to happened, then that would mean he caused those very events to happen?

Let me explain further my confusion by using an analogy:

Suppose that a giant hurricane hit the side of the United States west coast and wiped out half the population. People who survived have lost their homes and half of California is destroyed. We both agree that God can use that tragedy to bring about a greater good. However, If my understanding of Predestination is correct (and it may not be, depending how how the catholic church defines predestination), then it would mean that God himself directly caused the hurricane to happen, meaning that before the beginning of time, he would take the moment in time and cause that hurricane to wipe out half of California. I have absolutely no problem with the idea that God foreknew that this event would happen. However, I don’t agree with the idea that God himself directly caused the hurricane to happen because, from my understanding, that would make God some sort of dictator who wipes out and destroys his own creation (considering that after the fall, creation itself became corrupted). However, if the catholic understanding of predestination is not how I’m describing, please feel free to correct me, because this is an issue that I find difficult to understand.

 

[Barbkw]

Predestined natural disasters? Ya… I have no idea. The Earth is a huge planet, operating on enormous cycles. God made the Earth and it’s relatively stable as compared to what we’ve learned about other areas in the universe.

We don’t like facing death, but people have short life spans - but thankfully the soul which He has given to each of us, will return to Him.

 

[GRATEFULONEjim]

I was taught and assumed to be true that the extent of predestination by Gods will is that we are to meet Him on judgement day. Mankind’s free will comes into play in whether we remain in Heaven by following Gods will or are cast to Hell for passing from this life in a state of Mortal sin. Am i in error?

 

[ddarko]

A little bit. I agree that God can use suffering and evil to bring about a greater good. What confuses me is the idea that if God has predestined certain events to happened, then that would mean he caused those very events to happen?

Let me explain further my confusion by using an analogy:

Suppose that a giant hurricane hit the side of the United States west coast and wiped out half the population. People who survived have lost their homes and half of California is destroyed. We both agree that God can use that tragedy to bring about a greater good. However, If my understanding of Predestination is correct (and it may not be, depending how how the catholic church defines predestination), then it would mean that God himself directly caused the hurricane to happen, meaning that before the beginning of time, he would take the moment in time and cause that hurricane to wipe out half of California. I have absolutely no problem with the idea that God foreknew that this event would happen. However, I don’t agree with the idea that God himself directly caused the hurricane to happen because, from my understanding, that would make God some sort of dictator who wipes out and destroys his own creation (considering that after the fall, creation itself became corrupted). However, if the catholic understanding of predestination is not how I’m describing, please feel free to correct me, because this is an issue that I find difficult to understand.

Well this issue seems more along the lines of problem of evil now.

So lets take this question step by step.

First question is, why doesn’t God create a paradise where no one suffers and no natural disasters exist?

An answer would be that he did create such a world but mankind sinned and as a result natural disasters, pain and suffering do occur.

Then the follow up question would be, why didn’t God make the world in such a way that original sin never happened?

An answer would be that there are simply no logically consistent worlds where there is both free will and every person does not sin. So God chose this world where maximum number of people will be saved.

Then comes the question, is God responsible for natural disasters?

The answer would be, NO. God is merely actualizing the results of original sin which was committed by mankind with his free-will. But God in his goodness has made the world in such a way that such pain and suffering can act as graces that would lead some to be saved.

How?

He sent his only son Jesus Christ to suffer and shed his blood and claim us as family and in a mysterious way, connect each of us to his suffering on the cross. Thus, in every moment of suffering, we offer it up with Christ as our own cross contributing to our salvation and those of others.

And also along the lines of the Molinist solution, it might be that the situation actualized in turn actualizes the truths about many persons where they would freely choose to do GOOD works/actions and accept Christ.

Did that address your problem?

God Bless

 

[thunderbolt94]

Well this issue seems more along the lines of problem of evil now.

Did that address your problem?

God Bless

Yes. That makes complete sense now. Thank you so much.

God Bless.

 

[ddarko]

Yes. That makes complete sense now. Thank you so much.

God Bless.

No problem, glad it helped

God Bless

 

[laszlo]

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

 

[Barbkw]

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

Thanks for that link that explains the differences between Catholic and Lutheran understanding of Justification.

 

[thomas_jd]

The Church believes some people are predestined to go to Heaven and some are predestined to go to Hell.They are predestined because from their early childhood they accept the grace or in the case of the damned they are not going to accept the grace no matter what.The Church believes this occurs in just very few incidences but it does accept this.

You are confusing predestination with free choice.
We are all predestended to join God in heaven, only by our refusal to follow Gods law can one eliminate themself from His plan!

 

[valentino]

You are confusing predestination with free choice.
We are all predestended to join God in heaven, only by our refusal to follow Gods law can one eliminate themself from His plan!

I read this in the C Cathecism.i was surprized because I’d never heard or read of this before.They were definitely making the point that a few are predestined to go to Hell.As if God had planned in advance to create a few souls(for whatever reason) to go to Hell.I knnow it contradicts other CC teachings but if you wish to look it you can find it.Again not positive it was in the Catechism.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Catholics don’t believe that God predestines anyone for Hell! Everyone who goes to Hell goes there by their own choice. The reason God lets people go to Hell is because God is love and according to the Letter of Corinthians in the bible–love does demand its own way.

In other words God loves us so much that after He gives the greatest gift in the universe–His only begotten Son dying on the cross for our sins and the sins of the whole world–

If a person rejects all of that infinite perfect love and does not want any part of it–and would rather be in Hell–

then God loves that person enough to LET THEM GO TO HELL!

So the message for everyone is don’t put any impediment in the way of god’s grace.

Let him saved you!

The best place to facilitate that happening is in his Catholic Church!