What is the Catholic view of Judaism?

[Kaninchen]

Thats what I am asking give me any scripture and give me your view on it. Thats all. ITs all cool Kaninchen.

It’s what scripture is about that’s at the heart of the matter.

The focus of Christianity is Jesus, the focus of Judaism is Torah. There’s ‘The Law’ and all the rest is, in a sense, commentary.

 

[Kaninchen]

Trust me Kaninchen I do understand why some Jews don’t see it. BUt on the other hand you have to agree that many have accepted him.

I mean lets face ST Paul, Peter, John, etc all Jews. So it is not fair to say Jews do not believe in Jesus.

I view Jews to be wonderful people. I like you guys. No one prays more then I that we will someday become on the same team. Actually for many we already have.

Or not, as the case may be.

 

[Windfish]

My gut-level response would be to say why don’t you accept Jesus as the Messiah? I mean, the New Testament is a far more reliable history than the Old Testament, which, if not for the authority of the Catholic Church recognizing them as inspired and true Scripture, I would probably have a hard time accepting them. So, if it is not on historical grounds that you don’t accept Christ, what?

My second gut-level response would be that modern day Judaism is a man-made religion much like Protestantism. A lot of Old Covenant Judaism is simply done away with for one reason or another - Rabbinic texts from which modern day Judaism is based are filled with loopholes and other attempts on how to bypass Old Covenant practices and norms. And like Protestantism and Isam, there is no legitimate authority from God that backs up any of these things. Without this authority, there are a lot of internal inconsistencies, which, like Protestantism, leads to chaos. There are multiple sects of Judaism, there is no cohesion or continuity between them or between Old Covenant Judaism and today. Such cohesion and continuity only exists in the Catholic Church.

My third gut-level response is what reason is there to think that Judaism is the true religion in the first place? We can arrive at monotheism through reason alone, but why Judaism? What motives of credibility are there for modern day Judaism? The Old Testament history is so old, that it can only be broadly and vaguely supported - there is nothing specific, unlike the figure of Christ, that we can point to and say “Yup, Judaism is true.” But even if we do find such a clincher, we still have another hurdle to cross, since modern day Judaism is totally different animal. What makes that true? Is its legitimacy supported by many miracles, like the Catholic Church? I don’t think so.

If I were to place myself in the atheist position, work my way to monotheism through reason alone, and try to discern which religion has the true Revelation, there simply is not much, if any, that support Judaism. It’s only the Catholic Church, with its smooth continuity, cohesion, holiness, and miraculous history that stands out.

I’ve been meaning to learn more about Judaism, though. I could be wrong on all of the above, but those are my “gut-level” reactions.

 

[Kaninchen]

I’ve been meaning to learn more about Judaism, though. I could be wrong on all of the above, but those are my “gut-level” reactions.

Has to be said, that response really took guts.

 

[rinnie]

Or not, as the case may be.

Never underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit.

God send the Holy Spirit at Pentecost to lead the Church into all truth. There is nothing missing we got it all.

If there is anything we need to know the Holy Spirit will reveal it. We know everything that we need is left to us in the Church. God loves us and would not leave us Orphans.

We could never be on the same level of God when it comes to understanding his love and forgiveness for us. We have a merciful and Loving God he knows our heart.

 

[rinnie]

Has to be said, that response really took guts.

Never a dull moment with you kaninchen!

 

[meltzerboy]

My gut-level response would be to say why don’t you accept Jesus as the Messiah? I mean, the New Testament is a far more reliable history than the Old Testament, which, if not for the authority of the Catholic Church recognizing them as inspired and true Scripture, I would probably have a hard time accepting them. So, if it is not on historical grounds that you don’t accept Christ, what?

My second gut-level response would be that modern day Judaism is a man-made religion much like Protestantism. A lot of Old Covenant Judaism is simply done away with for one reason or another - Rabbinic texts from which modern day Judaism is based are filled with loopholes and other attempts on how to bypass Old Covenant practices and norms. And like Protestantism and Isam, there is no legitimate authority from God that backs up any of these things. Without this authority, there are a lot of internal inconsistencies, which, like Protestantism, leads to chaos. There are multiple sects of Judaism, there is no cohesion or continuity between them or between Old Covenant Judaism and today. Such cohesion and continuity only exists in the Catholic Church.

My third gut-level response is what reason is there to think that Judaism is the true religion in the first place? We can arrive at monotheism through reason alone, but why Judaism? What motives of credibility are there for modern day Judaism? The Old Testament history is so old, that it can only be broadly and vaguely supported - there is nothing specific, unlike the figure of Christ, that we can point to and say “Yup, Judaism is true.” But even if we do find such a clincher, we still have another hurdle to cross, since modern day Judaism is totally different animal. What makes that true? Is its legitimacy supported by many miracles, like the Catholic Church? I don’t think so.

If I were to place myself in the atheist position, work my way to monotheism through reason alone, and try to discern which religion has the true Revelation, there simply is not much, if any, that support Judaism. It’s only the Catholic Church, with its smooth continuity, cohesion, holiness, and miraculous history that stands out.

I’ve been meaning to learn more about Judaism, though. I could be wrong on all of the above, but those are my “gut-level” reactions.

With this response, the thread is veering in the direction of a Catholic apologetics argument. One of the striking things is that you managed to sneak Protestantism into the argument as well. Without going into detail since it would take all of us way off course, I can only say that your last sentence, and that one alone, is correct: you ARE wrong on all of the above! For your own enrichment, I would advise you to read up on modern Judaism or consult the Orthodox Jewish Forum (Hashkafa). You are also welcome to PM me if you like.

 

[manualman]

It’s what scripture is about that’s at the heart of the matter.

The focus of Christianity is Jesus, the focus of Judaism is Torah. There’s ‘The Law’ and all the rest is, in a sense, commentary.

That’s a REALLY interesting comment, K. I would have expected the focus of Judaism to be Yhwh, the law being just a means to achieving faithfulness.

The late Fr. Richard John Neuhaus had some fascinating opinions and thoughts about the misconceptions christians and Jews have about not just each other, but their OWN identities and history. The thrust of his argument (as I recall) was that the divide we think of today between Jews and christians simply didn’t exist in the earliest days of the church. The church didn’t see itself as a “new” Isreal, she saw herself as THE Israel. It wasn’t until gentile converts drastically outnumbered Jewish christians and the temple was destroyed that a permanent rift began to occur. People tend to think that the Jews, except for a few rejected Jesus in his own day, but the numbers don’t support that idea. Roman census data from a century or so before Christ show that the population of Jews then was MILLIONS more than the Jewish population a couple centuries after Christ. The destruction of Jerusalem and Roman oppression certainly could have played a part, but nothing I’ve seen in the historical record shows that the Romans had a nazi-esque focus on exterminating Jews on a wide scale. Their focus appears to have been military conquest and subjugation. The difference in population actually supports the Fr. Nuehaus’s assertion that MOST Jews accepted the coming of their Messiah and their decendents considered themselves christians rather than Jews. The massive gentile conversions, reduction in importance of the externals of Mosaic Law and destruction of the temple eroded the specifically Jewish identity of the Church over time. But the minority of contemporary Jews who refused to believe that Jesus was Messiah generally came from the Pharisee tradition. Their particular vision of Judaism was not as totally devastated by the destruction of the temple as other common Jewish factions and it is their decendents today that we think of as “Jewish” (though now divided into their own subfactions, like orthodox, reform, etc). The other strands all died out or converted. The ironic thing about this is that the Pharisees were generally the “good guys” among the religious Jews in the gospels. Yes, Jesus denounced them on occasion for being excessively focused on the law for its own sake, instead of for the greater good the law was given to point towards, but the Pharisees were in no way ever involved in the arrest, torture and crucifixion of Christ (that was the Sadducees). Ironically WE, as catholics, are the inheritors of THAT branch of Judaism: the branch focused on the offering of sacrifice to God for the expiation of sin.

So the next time you hear some knucklehead spout off tripe about Jews being “Christ-Killers” the joke is really on them! Today’s Jews are the descendents of the Pharisees who had no direct involvement in the passion. It was OUR side of the House of Israel that executed Jesus (the priestly side). But that’s really a moot point anyways since it was the sins of ALL humanity that Christ came to die for.

Wow, that was rambling. Must get caffeine…

 

[Windfish]

I always thought we were the inheritors of the Essenes, manualman. They were basically proto-Catholics, they have very similar beliefs and practices and even, my God, a prototype of the Holy Spirit! But I have heard before that modern day Judaism are the inheritors of the Pharisees.

 

[Windfish]

With this response, the thread is veering in the direction of a Catholic apologetics argument. One of the striking things is that you managed to sneak Protestantism into the argument as well. Without going into detail since it would take all of us way off course,** I can only say that your last sentence, and that one alone, is correct:** you ARE wrong on all of the above! For your own enrichment, I would advise you to read up on modern Judaism or consult the Orthodox Jewish Forum (Hashkafa). You are also welcome to PM me if you like.

We’ll see. I think there are going to be some interesting Catholicism/Judaism discussion on this forum in the future.

 

[Kaninchen]

That’s a REALLY interesting comment, K. I would have expected the focus of Judaism to be Yhwh, the law being just a means to achieving faithfulness.

There’s a paradigmatic problem here.

Christians have ‘Jesus as God’ and his life story/sayings to relate to.

We don’t have anything of the sort, we have what God gave us, ie Torah and from Torah we are to deduce whatever we can deduce about God - God is One, God is Logical, stuff like that - and what God requires of us. For us, anything beyond that is idolatry.

 

[Barbkw]

Greetings everyone! My name is Juan Arguelles. I come from a very traditional Catholic heritage. Though my parents are somewhat conservative Christians. For many generations my ancestors have been Catholic. So, I know a lot about the Christian faith and doctrines. For awhile I felt Judaism is the answer for my spirit. I decided to follow my gut and become a Noahide (gentile who follows the Seven laws of Noah) where I would then soon and hopefully become a Orthodox Jew. **Judaism makes more sense to me then Christianity and Islam. **The only thing I see worth saving from Christianity is my Catholic heritage. Which goes back many, many generations. What are your views on Judaism? Anything you feel that is controversial?

Jesus the Jewish Messiah, His & God the Father’s sending of the Holy Spirit, and Jesus’ Church are the fulfillment of the Old Covenant with the Jewish people.

“Catholicism made me a better Jew,” Brian Robbins, convert from Judaism on the EWTN program with Marcus Grodi - 04-11-2011.

youtube.com/user/EWTN#p/u/54/uc-U2SHkuOk

P.S. Should I assume that you’re aware that leaving the Catholic Church is a mortal sin against the 1st Commandment?

Luckily now, there are multiple books explaining how Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant promises that God the Father began with the Jewish people.

Br. Bob Fishman is a Jewish convert, perhaps you could email him with your questions.
wicatholicmusings.blogspot.com/2006/11/br-bob-fishman-speaks-on-jewish-roots.html

Other Jewish converts include: ignatius.com/PressRelease/HoneyFromTheRockPressKitBundle.pdf

Sister Rosalind Moss:
realclearreligion.com/index_files/fcf858419ae87961d89811cf975a88c6-358.html

 

[Kaninchen]

They tend to work as long as either side is just relating what their position is, as soon as it goes beyond that, it’s ‘Oh, Yes It Is!/Oh, No It Isn’t!’

 

[manualman]

There’s a paradigmatic problem here.

Christians have ‘Jesus as God’ and his life story/sayings to relate to.

We don’t have anything of the sort, we have what God gave us, ie Torah and from Torah we are to deduce whatever we can deduce about God - God is One, God is Logical, stuff like that - and what God requires of us. For us, anything beyond that is idolatry.

Fair enough, but it does sound like the Torah is still the means, not the end. Fair assessment?

 

[Kaninchen]

Fair enough, but it does sound like the Torah is still the means, not the end. Fair assessment?

I think that we’re in the world of ‘it depends on what you mean by’.

 

[kildare]

“salvation only comes from the Jews”

The modern Jews might be an “echo” of the glorious Israel of thousands of years ago, that God moulded into the most perfect society in preparation for his incarnation as the man Jesus. I think that from a catholic persepctive there is a lot there that we can learn from and appreciate, which can help us to develop our own understanding of the Kingdom of Heaven, as Jesus proclaimed.

Most Jews, like catholics are simply born into their religion and they are doing fine in my opinion by attempting the honour the traditions of their fathers and mothers - just as we catholics do. What more do we expect. Jews are of course very welcome to convert, though I always feel sad when its the other way around, though it obviously has to be a free choice.
On the whole I’m impressed by the way the religious ones publically honor God, the sacred texts and the laws. Their perseverance in honouring God, despite so many setbacks in history, is really something. So saddest of all is when a Jew gives up on God and becomes an atheist(given the countless generations before who stayed true).

Now what do Jews think of Catholics?

 

[swariffin]

It is certainly true that Jews are not monolithic, and neither are Catholics on certain doctrines. But on basic dogma all Jews are united (as are all Catholics). There are thirteen articles of faith in Judaism, and incidentally the belief in the coming of the Messiah, while not exactly optional, is not accepted by all Jews. Judging by your response to another poster and your young age, I can’t help but think you have had a turbulent spiritual life: Protestantism, Catholic heritage, atheism, and now Judaism. Again, study Judaism, but also learn more about Catholicism and Christianity in general, before you make up your mind.

That is a fair and objective comment of your. My question is, can a man from any race becomes a Jew?

 

[Kaninchen]

That is a fair and objective comment of your. My question is, can a man from any race becomes a Jew?

We’re a ‘People’ (as in ‘the Jewish People’), not a ‘Race’ (as in ‘the Jewish Race’) - a convert is as ‘Jewish’ as anybody else (nit-picking arguments over whether the conversion could be considered valid by the strictest of the strict are Jewish ‘business as usual’, the great tradition of arguing about anything and everything, and nothing to do with DNA).

 

[swariffin]

We’re a ‘People’ (as in ‘the Jewish People’), not a ‘Race’ (as in ‘the Jewish Race’) - a convert is as ‘Jewish’ as anybody else (nit-picking arguments over whether the conversion could be considered valid by the strictest of the strict are Jewish ‘business as usual’, the great tradition of arguing about anything and everything, and nothing to do with DNA).

That is very interesting, and re-confirm on how little I know about the Jews/Jewish People. As far as I know, one become a Jew just by birth only. That means (as I understand) a man like me, born under Mongoloid race can never become a Jew, although I marry a Jewess. Even as I marry a Jewess, my son cannot become a Jew too, since he must follow my blood as a Mongoloid.

 

[GaryTaylor]

What percentage in Israel actually practice Judaism?

I get the conversion concept, while I also understand being “born” Jewish, how would that make you Jewish by faith if you decided on Atheism for example?

So being “Jewish People” and actually following Judaism are two distinct seperate realitys no? So are those who drift away and decide on"whatever" christian, islam, atheism, are they accepted in Israel or shunned, considered lost souls. How are they viewed and treated as people?

God Bless, Gary