What is the catholic view on other churches?

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PhiJ

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Catholics believe that the non-catholic churches are not churches, correct? So why not? What makes a church a church? It appears that we must submit to those who you define as apostles to be called a church, and of course be a community of believers, but what else?

It looks like we who are not in local churches are not in the global church. Although that makes intuitive sense I’m going to ask why not?
 
PhiJ said:
Catholics believe that the non-catholic churches are not churches, correct? So why not? What makes a church a church? It appears that we must submit to those who you define as apostles to be called a church, and of course be a community of believers, but what else?

It looks like we who are not in local churches are not in the global church. Although that makes intuitive sense I’m going to ask why not?
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I believe that the Magisterium teaches that to be a Church you must have a body similar to the Magisterium. If you lack this body then you are an Ecumenical community. Interestingly this would make Mormons, whom the Magisterium says are not Christians, a Church and Anglicans, whom the Magisterium has a close relationship with, are an Ecumenical community.

Personally, I think it’s all divisiveness intended only to allow Catholics to look down on other Christians.
 
Drawmack said:
I believe that the Magisterium teaches that to be a Church you must have a body similar to the Magisterium. If you lack this body then you are an Ecumenical community. Interestingly this would make Mormons, whom the Magisterium says are not Christians, a Church and Anglicans, whom the Magisterium has a close relationship with, are an Ecumenical community.

Personally, I think it’s all divisiveness intended only to allow Catholics to look down on other Christians.
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The term they use is ecclisal community.
 
Drawmack said:
I believe that the Magisterium teaches that to be a Church you must have a body similar to the Magisterium. If you lack this body then you are an Ecumenical community. Interestingly this would make Mormons, whom the Magisterium says are not Christians, a Church and Anglicans, whom the Magisterium has a close relationship with, are an Ecumenical community.

Personally, I think it’s all divisiveness intended only to allow Catholics to look down on other Christians.
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This is wrong.

The Catholic Church views itself as the Church founded by Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. Due to various circumstances, various other bodies have split off from this one Church throughout history, while others simply created themselves and have no relationship to the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church views as “churches” those groups that have apostolic succession and maintain the true belief in the Eucharist. Namely, the Orthodox Church(es). “Ecclesial communities” are those churches that are products of the Reformation, lack true belief in the Eucharist, and do not have Holy Orders. Therefore, Eucharistic intercommunion is not possible with these “communities”, including the Anglican, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, etc. churches.
 
PhiJ said:
Catholics believe that the non-catholic churches are not churches, correct? So why not? What makes a church a church? It appears that we must submit to those who you define as apostles to be called a church, and of course be a community of believers, but what else?

It looks like we who are not in local churches are not in the global church. Although that makes intuitive sense I’m going to ask why not?
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:confused: I think all Christians agree on who the Apostles were.

See my above post on the distinction between “churches” and “ecclesial communities”. Churches have valid apostolic succession, valid holy orders (priesthood), and valid sacraments. Therefore we have Eucharistic intercommunion with them (though they may not reciprocate under normal circumstances). All that are not physically members of the Catholic Church can be members of the Body of Christ in varying degrees of imperfection, with the Orthodox Church being the closest to the Faith.
 
As a Catholic I do not look down on other Christians.I pray for my separated brothers and sisters.Jesus prayed that we would be one as He and the Father are one.But even though we(Catholics)Pray that the Church would be one,We also know we can’t deviate from that which was handed down by the Apostles.I don’t want to turn this thread into an argument.We love all our brothers and sisters.Rocky.
 
Nicer than some other christian churches that call the catholic church apostate and the pope antichrist.:eek:
 
There are many churches; there is only one Church. I am a convert, as a Baprtist I set out to prove the Catholic Church corrupt and tried to prove so though historical research, logic and reason. Though reason and humility I was forced to surrender the true Church is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. Only the Roman Catholic Church can validly claim all four marks. It is the Roman Catholic Church which has always been and continues to be that Church which Jesus Himself established almost 2000 years ago.
 
PhiJ said:
Catholics believe that the non-catholic churches are not churches, correct?
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No, what Catholics hold is that our brothers in Christ don’t have the fullness of Truth but are actually partially in communion with our Church:

Cathechism of the Catholic Church: Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”
PhiJ said:
What makes a church a church? It appears that we must submit to those who you define as apostles to be called a church, and of course be a community of believers, but what else?
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Rather than ask what makes a church a church, I’d ask what makes the Catholic Church THE Church?

The Church is One
*816 “The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him.”

The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: “For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God.”*
PhiJ said:
It looks like we who are not in local churches are not in the global church. Although that makes intuitive sense I’m going to ask why not?
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When you mention intuitive sense, you mean that you feel that you ARE a part of the global church? Read my first reply above to see why you ARE part in it, though imperfectly (because the union is not complete).

So you may read that “outside the church there is no salvation”.
It means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body. It makes no sense to separate the head from the body because Christ is ONE. Most don’t realize just how many are actually a part of the body. Also, it’s not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and His Church.

If you have the time, read why we hold our Church to be One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic for a more in-depth look. 👍

God bless you, PhiJ.
 
St. Augustine taught in his day that those apart from the Catholic faith were either schismatics or heretics.

There is nothing new under the sun … after 1600 years.
 
brb2 said:
St. Augustine taught in his day that those apart from the Catholic faith were either schismatics or heretics.

There is nothing new under the sun … after 1600 years.
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That’s not all he taught. Don’t get me wrong, I like the guy. But, his view of women, is well- disturbing.
 
StrawberryJam said:
That’s not all he taught. Don’t get me wrong, I like the guy. But, his view of women, is well- disturbing.
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OK … tell us more 😃 We do know he dearly ‘loved’ women in his pre-conversion youth.

And, we know he had great respect for his mother.
 
brb2 said:
OK … tell us more 😃 We do know he dearly ‘loved’ women in his pre-conversion youth.

And, we know he had great respect for his mother.
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I agree he lusted and had a wild life in his pagan days.
I agree he loved his mother. Monica.

But, after his conversion he had some disturbing things to say about women.:o
 
Religio71 said:
This is wrong.

The Catholic Church views itself as the Church founded by Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. Due to various circumstances, various other bodies have split off from this one Church throughout history, while others simply created themselves and have no relationship to the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church views as “churches” those groups that have apostolic succession and maintain the true belief in the Eucharist. Namely, the Orthodox Church(es). “Ecclesial communities” are those churches that are products of the Reformation, lack true belief in the Eucharist, and do not have Holy Orders. Therefore, Eucharistic intercommunion is not possible with these “communities”, including the Anglican, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, etc. churches.
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I’m learning all sorts of new things here…I knew that Catholics don’t think I am a Christian, but to find out that they don’t even acknowledge that I belong to a church?

Most interesting.
 
dianaiad said:
I’m learning all sorts of new things here…I knew that Catholics don’t think I am a Christian, but to find out that they don’t even acknowledge that I belong to a church?

Most interesting.
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I am sure your church does not recognize the catholics as having a valid church, right?
So why feign the surprise?:confused:
 
dianaiad said:
I’m learning all sorts of new things here…I knew that Catholics don’t think I am a Christian, but to find out that they don’t even acknowledge that I belong to a church?

Most interesting.
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Correct. Only those communities with valid apostolic succession and priesthood (and thus sacraments) and have origins in the beginnings of Christianity can correctly be called “churches”. Now, we may refer to various Protestant and non-Protestant Christian groups as “churches” out of courtesy, but they are not apostolic “churches”. This is also why we do not share in communion with these groups.

**1398 The Eucharist and the unity of Christians. Before the greatness of this mystery St. Augustine exclaims, "O sacrament of devotion! O sign of unity! O bond of charity!"237 The more painful the experience of the divisions in the Church which break the common participation in the table of the Lord, the more urgent are our prayers to the Lord that the time of complete unity among all who believe in him may return.

1399 The Eastern churches that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church celebrate the Eucharist with great love. “These Churches, although separated from us, yet possess true sacraments, above all - by apostolic succession - the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are still joined to us in closest intimacy.” A certain communion in sacris, and so in the Eucharist, "given suitable circumstances and the approval of Church authority, is not merely possible but is encouraged."238

1400 Ecclesial communities derived from the Reformation and separated from the Catholic Church, "have not preserved the proper reality of the Eucharistic mystery in its fullness, especially because of the absence of the sacrament of Holy Orders."239 It is for this reason that, for the Catholic Church, Eucharistic intercommunion with these communities is not possible. However these ecclesial communities, "when they commemorate the Lord’s death and resurrection in the Holy Supper . . . profess that it signifies life in communion with Christ and await his coming in glory."240 **

This is also reflected in the “Guidelines for Reception of Communion” that is included in the Mass booklet given out at many cathedrals and basilicas that are tourist attractions and would attract large non-Catholic and non-Christian visitors:
**

For Our Fellow Christians:
We welcome our fellow Christians to this celebration of the Eucharist as our brothers
and sisters. We pray that our common baptism and the action of the Holy Spirit in this
Eucharist will draw us closer to one another and begin to dispel the sad divisions which
separate us. We pray that these will lessen and finally disappear, in keeping with Christ’s
prayer for us “that they may all be one” (John 17:21).
Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality
of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we
are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Holy Communion. Eucharistic
sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according
to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law (canon 844 §4).
Members of Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National
Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches. According
to Roman Catholic Discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception
of Communion by Christians of these Churches (canon 844 §3). **
 
"Religio71":
I think all Christians agree on who the Apostles were.
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Afraid not. Some christians (I presume this includes you) think that the apostles consist entirely of the twelve and Paul. Others (including me) think that apsotle is as valid a ministry today as it ever was - in a similar way to pastor/teacher being the same ministry it used to be. I assumed catholics saw the pope as an apostle due to the phrase ‘apostolic succession’.
"Liraco":
When you mention intuitive sense, you mean that you feel that you ARE a part of the global church?
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No, I mean that if you believe the cathlic church is the church, it makes sense to me that you might believe that you must be a member of a local church to be a member of the global church. Sometimes when you see arguments you go ‘what? how does that follow’ and this is quite the opposite.

Thanks for the Catechism quotes btw, I found them very helpful.
 
PhiJ said:
Afraid not. Some christians (I presume this includes you) think that the apostles consist entirely of the twelve and Paul. Others (including me) think that apsotle is as valid a ministry today as it ever was - in a similar way to pastor/teacher being the same ministry it used to be. I assumed catholics saw the pope as an apostle due to the phrase ‘apostolic succession’.

No, I mean that if you believe the cathlic church is the church, it makes sense to me that you might believe that you must be a member of a local church to be a member of the global church. Sometimes when you see arguments you go ‘what? how does that follow’ and this is quite the opposite.

Thanks for the Catechism quotes btw, I found them very helpful.
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Well Catholics believe that in the Bible there were Apostles besides the Twelve. The criteria to be one of the Twelve was to have been with Christ throughout his preaching, and to be a witness of the resurrection. Catholics do not see the Pope as an Apostle. He is a bishop, and the bishops are the successors of the apostles, but not apostles themselves.
 
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