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FCEGM
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These two articles might help you better understand the Church’s teaching on this:
bringyou.to/apologetics/a130.htm
bringyou.to/apologetics/a129.htm
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bringyou.to/apologetics/a130.htm
bringyou.to/apologetics/a129.htm
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RoryMcKenzie56
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Hi dianaiad,
Interesting perhaps, but not necessarily accurate. I can’t speak for other Catholic and other Catholics can’t speak for the whole Catholic Church. Not all Catholics agree with your view of what you think Catholics think of you.
Regarding whether Latter-day Saints are Christians, as you probably know, there was a decision by one of the congregations of the Church that LDS baptism was invalid. So, are these Catholics saying that the Church did a study to find out if a non-Christian religion had valid baptisms? At one time, the Catholic Church even performed conditional baptisms for Mormons who converted to the Catholic faith. Why would the Catholic Church have performed conditional baptisms on people who didn’t even qualify as Christian?
As for whether the word church properly applies to your church…well…oops. Are some Catholics saying that for accuracy, I must not refer to the church of the Mormons but rather the group, community or the sect of the Mormons? What is to be gained by denying everyday English and the language used by the vast majority of the population other than giving offense? Mormons are Christians and they go to church on Sundays as most Christians do.
So what? I’m still free to criticise. I think it is the wrong church. I haven’t told anyone you are going to heaven just because I concede that you go to a false Christian church. Church going Christians can go to hell. Mormons have to die in a state of grace just like everybody else and the best way to do that is the ordinary way, by receiving the sacraments of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Rory
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dianaiad
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I do appreciate your point of view, more than you know. Thank you.
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leopolis1
Guest
There are Catholic Churches (Roman, Greek, Armenian, Coptic, etc.) and Orthodox Churches. Protestants are not churches, they are denominations, communions, communities, sects, etc. Why not churches? Because in protestantism there is no priesthood and as a result of that - no Real Presence.
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Religio71
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to be completely clear, there is no valid priesthood.
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Liraco
Guest
I obviously struck a nerve and meant no offense. I didn’t mean to compare one saint to another. I merely stated that some people find Paul’s words toward women troubling when not properly understood. Augustine certainly seems much harsher. Did you have a chance to view the link I provided? Like with scripture and a lot of other things, we need proper context and guidance or we’ll come to bad conclusions. It would be a shame to harbor negative feelings toward a saint.
Augustine says for example: if he [Jesus] had avoided a woman’s womb, it would rather have suggested that he could be defiled by it. This is an interesting defense of women against the average male chauvinist thinking of women as carriers of defilement. [He] makes it clear that it is the male rather than the female who is the carrier of defilement in sexual intercourse.
Please give it a read sometime.
You misunderstand (the problem seems to be semantics). Religio is right in that receiving communion is only for Catholics because if we allowed our protestant brothers to partake in it, they would be lying. That’s because communion implies being in agreement with the Church, the Pope, the Magisterium, and of course being a baptized Catholic free from mortal sin. If you’re not Catholic, then you’re obviously not in communion with the Church and shouldn’t be receiving.
You can’t just focus on “communion” and therefore arrive at the conclusion that yours is not a “church” though. It’s not part of THE Church founded by Jesus, true, but yours is still technically A church by definition. As Religio quoted from the Catechism 1400, the other churches are referred as “ecclesial communities” (with “ecclesia” being latin for “assembly” or “church”).
If you didn’t already, please read my post on the first page.
Our Bishops are successors to the Apostles. They’re not “successors of the apostles” because Christ did not ordain any more and so when they died, the task of shepherding the Church fell by default upon the highest-ranking ministers appointed by them. In other words, those who they appointed as their successors are our Bishops.
There are differences though, for example all the Apostles got the gift of miracles to validate their ministry. Bishops do not typically receive the gift of miracles.
Please read the following on Apostolic Succession.
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brb2
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Sorry, but where do you get your errant ideas about Augustine ?
One reviewer who researched his writings/sermons on women said this ----- [Augustine’s attitude toward women was that of a courteous gentleman, of a “partit, gentle knight”].
Would the Church have made him a Saint … if he wasn’t saintly ?
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PhiJ
Guest
Are you actually saying that you think that God does not dwell amongst us by his spirit?
In a previous discussion, I was told that “Specifically naming certain saints is, in fact, more about honoring those who have completed the race…” I’m sure I’ve misunderstood what makes somebody a ‘specifically named saint’ a bit, but I see it as sombody who is a christian and is being held up as a role model (am I right?) In that case king david may not have been a specifically named saint (being before christ? Is he one?) but he was an adulterer and a murderer, and is held up to us as an example in the bible. So surely Augustine didn’t have to be perfect to be a ‘specifically named saint’?
In case anybody misinterprets, I’m speaking from lack of knoledge here, and would love to be corrected.
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Liraco
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What is meant by “Real Presence” is the presence of our Lord in the Eucharist. Only validly ordained priests may confect the Eucharist. In a protestant church where they celebrate the Lord’s supper, there is no Real Presence of our Lord.
That is not saying the Lord is not with you (read my previous posts with Catechism quotes to show that you are indeed joined to our church though imperfectly). That would be like saying God abandons anyone not Catholic. The Eucharist is a separate (though very important) matter.
You’re right that saints are meant to be role models, but don’t confuse someone who DIED a saint with having to be a saint since you were born. We’re all sinners and we’re ALL called to be saints! If we had to be “saintly” from the beginning, the “list” would be awfully short.
“Specifically named” saints are those whose lives are known and recorded (to show that they indeed followed God). There are surely a lot of unknown saints in Heaven, but the ones we name are those who’s examples we have. If someone isn’t proclaimed a saint it doesn’t mean they aren’t one, rather those who are canonized as saints are those who we know for certain are in heaven (miracles granted by God through their intercession being the proof).
St. Augustine is a good example of someone who led a pretty bad life, certainly something you wouldn’t want to follow. **After **his conversion though he did a lot of good like defending the faith, exhorting others to do what was right (men demanded their wives to be chaste while they themselves were not, for example and he called them on that).
The saints certainly had their faults, they were still sinners, but they serve as an example because of their struggles and how they surpassed them by faith in the Lord. It lets us know that even we can be like them despite our own struggles, we still “have a shot” at sainthood. Even someone who many saw as a living saint, Pope John Paul II, went to weekly confession.
Let’s go further back and look at Saint Paul. He persecuted Christians and had no qualms with their deaths. Horrible! And yet the Lord brought Paul to Him. Look at how great of an example he became THEN. In other words, saints are models of all they they do good DESPITE their mistakes. Certainly I’m not saying Augustine was perfect (read the article, it’s quite interesting), but that he certainly wasn’t the chauvinist some make him out to be.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church tells us, “The patriarchs, prophets, and certain other Old Testament figures have been and always will be honored as saints in all the Church’s liturgical traditions” (CCC 61).
Following this idea of following the good example these saints give, let’s go with King David.
-“David fell into the sins of adultery and murder, bringing thereby great calamities on himself and his people. The spirit in which David accepted these penalties has made him for all time the model of penitents.
-The last recorded words of the aged king are an exhortation to Solomon to be faithful to God, to reward loyal servants, and to punish the wicked.
-The Bible records David’s sins and weaknesses without excuse or palliation, but it also records his repentance, his acts of virtue, his generosity towards Saul, his great faith, and his piety. Critics who have harshly criticized his character have not considered the difficult circumstances in which he lived or the manners of his age.
-David was not merely king and ruler, he was also a prophet.
-Incidents in the life of David are regarded by the Fathers as foreshadowing the life of Christ.”
We are all called to repent and turn from our evil ways and follow God, and the saints are (in cases like Paul and Augustine) examples of people who did just that. If you see their lives you can see how their love for God developed, how they endured through trials, and ultimately succeeded in staying true to Him.
2683 The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom, especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives, the transmission of their writings, and their prayer today. They contemplate God, praise him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. When they entered into the joy of their Master, they were “put in charge of many things.” Their intercession is their most exalted service to God’s plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.
The topic of saints is quite interesting (especially those who demonstrated special gifts like St. Padre Pio, St. John Vianney, etc.) but I hope this is enough for now and that it made sense.
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PhiJ
Guest
Thanks, that does make sense.
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