What is the CENTRAL Truth of Christianity?

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If foundation as you put it is applied to this instance; then explain why Christ had to descend into hell to release souls.
Are you saying that God does not require us to love Him? If this is the case, then why is there such emphasis on Love, on God being Love? If God Himself finds love so important as to call Himself Love, then does He not need Love from those He has created? In His Love for you His Heart aches, for love is that thing that makes the heart ache, would it not be nice if you forgot your arrogance for a sec and started realising that you don’t love God, and perhaps you should start realising that image and likeness is all that He is We are, we are of Love and we need Love, thus He needs love too. I have never had a prayer go unanswered, sometimes it isn’t as I think, but often it is blatant, I think perhaps your lack of faith in prayer, and your lack of knowing that God is listening to your every word all the time, even when you are not in prayer, is what is lacking. Prayer rules God, why is it that Rosaries are so powerful? Why are Novena’s such a thing, why do people crawl up to shrines in thanks? Don’t put God and superhero in the same sentence, it just is so tacky, try Divine then, if invincible is too much for you.
 
Numinous said:
Do not confuse FACT and TRUTH.
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I am a computer/database programmer - so please, don’t try to educate me on Logic, or the difference between fact and truth. They are one and the same.

FACT IS TRUTH !!!

Why? Because Fact is True!!!

What is not fact is NOT True!!!

The greatest truth (fact/reality) is that God IS - God EXISTS - God is “I AM WHO AM”.
 
I would never presume to educate some random dude on the Internet about anything.
 
Numinous said:
I would never presume to educate some random dude on the Internet about anything.
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But you did - you told me not to confuse Truth and Fact. That presumes you were trying to educate me … and that there is a difference between the two. If you really think there is a difference, I would love to see what you have to say on the matter.
 
Numinous said:
Nah, I’m no longer interested.
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I’m sorry if I seemed a little beligerent … I didn’t mean to be … it’s just I am very passionate about this … fact, truth, logic.

If you felt like I ran over you with the car, and then backed up a few times, I apologize.
 
Thank you for your Christian response! Now, we can talk.

I agree that fact and truth are, semantically, the same thing these days, but I was trying to make a subtle differentiation:

Fact – the readily apprehendable universe experienced through empirical data

Truth – that which is also fact which cannot necessarily be empirically observed

Thus, truth encompasses fact, but fact does not contain all truth.
 
Numinous said:
Christ is the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. “Foundation” does not mean “bottom of the earth” in this instance but rather the beginning (and before the beginning) of time. Thus, our redemption came before the universe was born. Thus, God does not change. His redemption was simply revealed to us at a certain time, thus making it APPEAR that he changes.
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And… could there be other things ‘from the foundation’ that God will be ‘revealing’ to us… in His own sweet time?
 
Jkiwemn56 re; post 78
Thank you for the compliment:
OK. Now I know that Evidence equals Truth, as you say. But clarify something for me:

If truth is what is and what is not is not truth (I am paraphrasing Aristotle), then can we substitute and say, 'Evidence is what is and what is not is not evidence" ?
 
Michael_David said:
And… could there be other things ‘from the foundation’ that God will be ‘revealing’ to us… in His own sweet time?
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Your sarcasm aside…absolutely!
God exists outside of the timeline, any timeline, and thus, all things are one moment (even that phrase does not work, does it?). Thus, your “own sweet time” jibe does not apply to God. His nature will continually be revealed to his faithful Church until this created order is swept away, and we all see God face to face, not through a dark mirror as we now do.
 
Numinous said:
Thank you for your Christian response! Now, we can talk.

I agree that fact and truth are, semantically, the same thing these days, but I was trying to make a subtle differentiation:

Fact – the readily apprehendable universe experienced through empirical data

Truth – that which is also fact which cannot necessarily be empirically observed

Thus, truth encompasses fact, but fact does not contain all truth.
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Thank you for that explanation … and even more importantly, thank you for accepting my apology. Sometimes I can be like a bull in a china shop and not even realize it. It is because I am very passionate about this subject, but it does not give me the right to be insensitive to other people.

You have to understand a little about me to know where I am coming from. My knowledge of Fact and Truth come from a personal experience of God. The greatest fact and truth there is … is that “God IS”. There is nothing that causes God. God causes but is NOT caused.

You are right that Truth emcompasses Fact, but also goes beyond it. For the purpose of this thread, what I was driving at was that Christianity would not exist except for the Truth/Fact of the Resurrection - empirical evidence that Christ is risen from the dead and is Alive.

Thank you again for your contribution.
 
Numinous said:
Your sarcasm aside…absolutely!
God exists outside of the timeline, any timeline, and thus, all things are one moment (even that phrase does not work, does it?). Thus, your “own sweet time” jibe does not apply to God. His nature will continually be revealed to his faithful Church until this created order is swept away, and we all see God face to face, not through a dark mirror as we now do.
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No sarcasm, merely questioning…

So, our ‘perception’ of God is minimal… and as we learn more of Who God is, in His reveling Himself to us, our perception of Him will change… although He has not changed. (Did I say that right?)

So, the ‘change’ would be with us… not with Him.
 
Michael_David said:
No sarcasm, merely questioning…

So, our ‘perception’ of God is minimal… and as we learn more of Who God is, in His reveling Himself to us, our perception of Him will change… although He has not changed. (Did I say that right?)

So, the ‘change’ would be with us… not with Him.
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Yes - St. Paul says we now see God through a glass, but one day we shall see “face to face”. St. John says “we know that we will be like Christ, because we will see Him as He is”.
 
Michael_David said:
No sarcasm, merely questioning…

So, our ‘perception’ of God is minimal… and as we learn more of Who God is, in His reveling Himself to us, our perception of Him will change… although He has not changed. (Did I say that right?)

So, the ‘change’ would be with us… not with Him.
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And now it’s my turn to apologize for assuming you were being sarcastic. The “own sweet time” phrase is usually employed sarcastically.

Anyway, what you just posted…yeah. That is what I was driving at.
 
jkiernan56 said:
Yes - St. Paul says we now see God through a glass, but one day we shall see “face to face”. St. John says “we know that we will be like Christ, because we will see Him as He is”.
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Again, questioning…

So, is Truth, Truth? Is Fact, Fact? Since these are based on our ‘present day’ perception of what we call God. And as our ‘perception’ changes, will the rest follow?
 
Numinous said:
And now it’s my turn to apologize for assuming you were being sarcastic. The “own sweet time” phrase is usually employed sarcastically.

Anyway, what you just posted…yeah. That is what I was driving at.
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Not to worry, this language of ours and how it’s used to make meanings sometimes is allusive… and has to be conversed a bit further for clarification.
 
Michael_David said:
Again, questioning…

So, is Truth, Truth? Is Fact, Fact? Since these are based on our ‘present day’ perception of what we call God. And as our ‘perception’ changes, will the rest follow?
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Great question.

For me, truth/fact is an independant reality that does not depend on me to believe it … in order for it to be true. Whether I believe it or not, it does not matter. My belief does not make it more true, or my unbelief make it less true. Truth is an objective reality independant and self-contained.

I believe real “sanity” is in coming to know and accept objective reality. Sanity for me is NOT perception of reality. Belief or perception does not change reality. Reality is … and my coming to know and accept what it is determines my mental health. I can believe anything I want to believe - but it does not make what I believe real or true. What is real or true is independant of me.
 
jkiernan56 said:
For me, truth/fact is an independant reality that does not depend on me to believe it … in order for it to be true. Whether I believe it or not, it does not matter. My belief does not make it more true, or my unbelief make it less true. Truth is an objective reality independant and self-contained.

I believe real “sanity” is in coming to know and accept objective reality. Sanity for me is NOT perception of reality. Belief or perception does not change reality. Reality is … and my coming to know and accept what it is determines my mental health. I can believe anything I want to believe - but it does not make what I believe real or true. What is real or true is independant of me.
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Again, as such… what is the Truth that is believed? Can we actually ‘know’ what that is in this ‘present day’?

Does ‘fact’ become today’s version, while ‘truth’ will become tomorrows?
 
Michael_David said:
Again, as such… what is the Truth that is believed? Can we actually ‘know’ what that is in this ‘present day’?

Does ‘fact’ become today’s version, while ‘truth’ will become tomorrows?
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The Truth that will never change is that “God IS”. There is no greater truth than the reality of God’s existence - “I AM WHO AM”. I know this Truth from personal experience. Tomorrow will not change reality. Tomorrow will not change truth. Tomorrow will not change what does actually EXIST. Perception may change - reality does not.

Sanity is getting in touch with reality. Living according to what is not real is insanity.
 
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