What is the Church Lord Jesus established?

[Inquiry]

We know that the Catholic Church Is His Church because it is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. We are the only Christians who can claim to have all four of these markers which are laid out in the Nicene and Apostolic Creeds.

I was under the impression that the Orthodox claim that as well.

 

[Bon_Croix]

Then, at this point, I am not totally against retracting my statement that the Holy Spirit can be granted by the Church. Yet, it does minister it. And God wills humans to receive the Holy Spirit.

Yet, if we act like Jesus, as the Body of Christ, what prevents us from sharing the Holy Spirit with others if it is our will in line with God’s will?

 

[Dan_Defender]

We know that the Catholic Church Is His Church because it is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

I second this. Even the Eastern Orthodox do not have unity but are more or less a collection of independent churches. I know Romanians who rather go to the Catholic liturgy than the Russian Orthodox one.

 

[po18guy]

1. He commanded baptism. Many no longer baptize.
2. He gave unprecedented power and authority - as well as responsibility, to the twelve. They handed it on to those who were tested and found worthy. Non-denom communities have self-appointed pastors and apostles.
3. He commanded us to eat His Body and drink His Blood. Non-Catholic/Orthodox either do not believe this or do not practice it as He commanded it.
4. The bible came from the Church. All non-C, non-O communities use their peculiar interpretation of the scriptures alone, disregarding much of what the Apostles taught.
5. The twelve were given authority over sin. No one, other than Catholic and Orthodox, have power over sin, power to forgive sin in the person of Christ.
6. The test of truth or falsity in ancient Israel was if the witnesses’ testimony agreed. There are 30,000 denominations or so-called non-denominations whose testimony does not agree.
7. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches were founded by and on Christ. All the rest are founded on the bible rather than Christ. Without the bible, they are lost.
8. I am convinced that much of the bible Christian world has faith, not so much in Christ Himself, as in what He did. Small difference? It is a world of difference.

This list could go on almost forever.

 

[YHWH_Christ]

(This is from an Orthodox POV)

Christ established the Orthodox Catholic Church, and the Roman Catholic Church separated itself from the Orthodox Church about 1000 years ago. Though I would agree that it is the/a legitimate successor to the ancient Orthodox Church in the west (possibly alongside the English Church and possibly others), and it cannot be denied that it has clear apostolic origins, from an Orthodox point of view the Roman Catholic Church lacks grace in its mysteries, as do all groups outside the holy Orthodox Church. Where grace was previously lacking in the Roman Catholic sacraments, it can be accomplished through the holy mystery of chrismation into the Orthodox Church.

 

[Woodyl57]

Forgive me if this has come up earlier in this posting, but while the Orthodox do have Apostolic origins it has broken (schism) from Apostolic unity in Peter (Papacy) which is recognized well before 1000 years ago including, of course, the Gospels.

What the Early Church Believed: Peter's Primacy | Catholic Answers Tract

 

[YHWH_Christ]

I’d have to respectfully disagree with your assertion.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/inq_rc.aspx

Was Peter the Rock? Latin Exegetical Interpretations of Matthew 16:18-19: From Late Antiquity to the Twelfth Century | Shameless Orthodoxy

Catholic Proof Texts and One-liners for Papal Primacy Debunked: Part One | Shameless Orthodoxy

Both our Churches claim to be the original Church founded by Jesus Christ. That is why we are mutually exclusive and unity isn’t going to happen unless, for us Orthodox, Rome recants of its numerous heresies and returns to the Orthodox faith, whereas for you it would be us Orthodox abandoning Orthodoxy and submitting to Rome, something we have no inclination of doing anytime soon.

 

[Woodyl57]

I agree it does seem like an improbable impasse unity.

I would be interested in some of the multiple heresies you speak of. I am certainly willing to look into them as I am not familiar with the Orthodox.

Thanks

 

[Woodyl57]

I, admittedly, skimmed through both articles (will read them more closely when I have the opportunity) and they are interesting.

Just my initial impression is that the while I agree all the Apostles are given authority and are “foundations” of the Church (The New Jerusalem in Revelation has the names of the twelve on the pearl gates I believe). Peter’s place of honor is and his primacy is necessary and the bond of unity.

The Church is prefigured in the Kingdom of David. The prime minster of that kingdom is the role of papacy in the new Jerusalem. “The sure peg in the palace”. The Papacy rarely, very rarely, works apart from the Bishops of the world. But he the center and the symbol of unity of the Bishops and the Church.

Just my initial impression without looking too deep.

Thanks

 

[EloyCraft]

It is the only Church that makes the claims that only Jesus’ Church can. She gets alot of criticism for it too.

 

[Justin_Mary]

from an Orthodox point of view the Roman Catholic Church lacks grace in its mysteries, as do all groups outside the holy Orthodox Church. Where grace was previously lacking in the Roman Catholic sacraments, it can be accomplished through the holy mystery of chrismation into the Orthodox Church.

So you’re saying the Orthodox position is that the Churches in union with Rome have invalid sacraments?

 

[Woodyl57]

I saw that the Orthodox position is not Papal primacy but primacy of honor (for Peter) as mentioned in one of the articles. Does orthodoxy still give Peter that primacy of honor and how so? Not in the Protestant respect I hope of no succession or there was no expectation this applied to successors.

 

[Woodyl57]

Lastly for now and forgive me for a barrage of questions and comments, I respect your position even on points I disagree with. I know little about orthodoxy but the little I read thru has been informative if not exactly convincing on some of its assertions. I certainly want to make my arguments against its true beliefs and not what I think it believes. Experienced that myself far too many times from evangelicals. Thanks

 

[Metis1]

The word “church” is used 107 times in the NT, and with the sole exception of referring to local churches, it is referred to as being of “one body”, as Paul stated. Jesus appointed the Twelve, and the Twelve began to appoint others through a process called “apostolic succession” (maybe check that out at Wiki for further information). And it was this Church that chose the canon that the vast majority of Christians use worldwide.

 

[TheLittleLady]

The Catholic Church is the original Christian Church. All who claim the name Christian are knowingly or unknowingly part of the Catholic Church.

 

[Inquiry]

Well, yes. Especially if you mean catholic in the definitional sense rather than the denominational sense.

 

[vivnes]

The Church understands herself as being sent. In the First Vatican Council she states: “To his beloved disciples, stating the name with which he called them: As the Father has sent me, even so I send you” (John 20:21). We also understand from both Pope Gelasius I and Innocent X, the equality of Peter and Paul, but yet Paul gave due subordination to Peter by reason of his Primacy.

Jesus Christ is the leader of the Church. But he is not the visible head. His vicar, the Pope, is his visible head. And we give the invisible head honor, when we honor his visible head. “If any man say, I love God, and hateth his brother; he is a liar. For he that loveth not his brother, whom he seeth, how can he love God, whom he seeth not?” (1 Jn 4:20)

In Mark 3:14, 16: “And he appointed twelve, to be with him, and to be sent out to preach and have authority to cast out demons. And he appointed the twelve.” Would your question ought to be, Who are those twelve today? Catholics have discovered that the bishops are the successors of those twelve. Bound by divine law.

The First Vatican Council stated: “If anyone denies that there is a Hierarchy in the Church by divine ordination…established with the power of orders and jurisdiction…let him be anathema.”

 

[JohnR77]

called “apostolic succession” (maybe check that out at Wiki for further information

.
OK. I will admit to a slight predisposition or inclination to being biased here, but I think this Web page does a better job of showing the Biblical case for apostolic succession and the hierarchical structure of the church

Apostolic Succession in the Bible

Apostolic Succession in the Bible

John

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Every Protestant doctrine which contradicts the Catholic Church also contradicts the Word of God in the Bible.

So, the fact that Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church is recorded in the New Testament. And Protestants nor their doctrines are anywhere to be found in those venerable pages.

Interesting conclusions.

Mine? Or the things you’ve listed below? If you wouldn’t mind giving complete ideas, it would help decipher your meaning.

1Christian AOG

What’s that? The internet says “Assemblies of God”. But what are you saying, that you’re a member of the Assemblies of God?

Teaching of the 9 h.s. ministry gifts.

The Catholic Church lists 7. But what is your point? That this contradicts Catholic Teaching? As long as you don’t claim that the Catholic Church’s Teaching is wrong, I don’t see a problem.

Mark 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

The Baptist teaching on baptised in water and new birth.

Baptists do not believe that Baptism brings about new birth. They consider it a mere discipline.

The WOF teachings scripture.

???

And the believers authority.

Over what?

The SDA teaching on the 4 commandment. And 2 commandment.

What is the teaching?

Don’t pray to idol’s

We don’t.

You would have to wonder of the Holy Spirit leading people to all truth
John 16:13

The Holy Spirit is leading the Catholic Church to all truth. Protestants have abandoned the Teachings of Jesus Christ and embraced the teachings of men.

 

[De_Maria]

Your conclusions are not true outside of the commentaries you believe.

We can sit around saying, “that’s not true.” “yes it is”, all day. But I support my conclusions. All you are providing is, well, nothing but a dissenting opinion.

Each Christian denomination is catholic

No, they’re not. Catholic means universal. The only Church that comes close to fitting that description is the Catholic Church which has it’s See in Rome.

they are just not roman catholic. Or as you have defined them as protestant.

That definition precedes me.

As saint Paul said to the Ephesians. In acts 19. Into what were you baptised into?

We can examine that question, in detail. How many of them believe that Baptism infuses grace?

Well these denominations are baptised into Jesus Christ. But roman catholic have better ritual ceremonies.

Lol! Catholics have faith in the operation of God through the Sacraments. How many Protestants believe that?

Colossians 2:12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.