What is the Church of Scientology?

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i’m very sorry for the horrible experiences your family members had with the Church of Scientology. However, I do believe that this is not the norm, at the Saint Hill org, or anywhere else. Yes, there are other people who have had these experiences, however they are not the majority. I compare this to the abuse cases that surround the Catholic Church in the USA. The media makes it seem as if the Catholic Church is a haven for sexual abusers, and that a large number of their priests are abusers. However this is not the case. These people would tell their horror stories of how the priests they trusted took advantage of them. They couldn’t tell their parents, but when they did and the story came out, the Church attempted to take certain measures that many deemed inadequate, such as moving the priest to another parish, paying money to the family for various reasons, etc. Is this the norm in the Catholic Church? Definitely not. In the same way, there are people that do have unfortunate experiences with the Church of Scientology, and of course there are people in various positions in the CofS that might abuse their power or take measures that clearly conflict with Scientology teaching. This is not the norm in Scientology, and having been a member for years, I have not had such experiences. Once again, I’m sorry for your family members, however I don’t believe that this is the norm.
 
Hi Theatan,
Excellent point in your last post - one can’t judge an entire religion based on the experience of a few people.

I looked at the links you provided regarding your “moral code” - thanks. While there isn’t anything there that I’d say is a bad thing… I guess what makes me sad & a bit confused is the lack of God. It seems like all of the do’s & don’ts are to better the individual - and I suppose society as a result - but not to please a loving God. As you’re well aware I’m sure, that is such a switch from Christianity. So other than making yourself a better person - what’s the payoff? See, I have the reward of heaven & an eternity spent with Jesus & Mary & all the Saints & everyone else I love, hopefully. There will be no more mouring or sickness or death - it will be a paradise. And in the meantime, I have God to help me get through this life. No matter what crummy thing comes my way, I know I can go to Him in prayer & He’ll help me. It gives me such a sense of security and peace knowing that I’m not in it alone. I guess that’s the feeling I got from reading the links - wow… it’s really all up to you - the individual & the work you have to do to make yourself a better person. I guess I feel that I only need to give myself over to Jesus and allow Him to shine through me. In fact, whenever I try do MY own thing outside of His will for me - the outcome really sinks. But the more I yield to Him - that’s the way I become a better, happier person and everyone around me, including me benefits. Does that make sense?

Anyhow, that’s just my take on it… I’m sure I can’t know all there is to know about your faith just from reading a website or two. And as you said, maybe it’s much closer to the Eastern Religions. I have a very hard time understanding those as well. I guess I’ve been close to Jesus for so long that I can’t imagine happiness any other way.

God Bless you,
CM
 
hi, thanks for the response. I’m about to go out of state with my family, so i won’t be able to put a good response until tomorrow or saturday.

Yes, I do agree that Scientology tends to focus more on the bettering of the self, etc. This does tend to put it more in the Eastern religious category, finding more similarities with Hinduism, Buddhism, and even Eastern Orthodoxy to a degree. I think that is partly why I am able to still worship our Trinitarian God and be a Scientologist. Scientology is more appropriately an “applied religious philosophy”. You might see this phrase a few times, and I believe it more accurately describes what Scientology is. Scientology does profess a belief in a Supreme Being. Scientology does believe that Jesus Christ existed, was crucified, etc. His crucifixion showed the importance of the spirit and God over material pleasures, etc. However, Scientology does believe that other religions have merit.

I think that because Scientology is an applied religious philosophy, it is easier for individual Scientologist to decide on the concept of God they believe in, whether it be Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. Remember, Scientology is not a Christian religion, nor is it based on the Bible or any other religious text of any other religion.

Hope that helped!
 
Hey Thetan what’s this about Jesus Christ being “just a shade above Clear.” I figure he’d have to be at least OT Level VIII. Confirm or deny? 😃

“Neither Lord Buddha, nor Jesus Christ were OT’s according to the evidence. They were just a shade above clear.” (L. Ron Hubbard, Ability, No. 81, 1959).

Other questionable Hubbard quotes on Christianity here. Mind you, from a secondary online skeptical source.

And here’s another one:

“Also the Christian church used (and uses) implanting… They took over the Nicene Creed before the year zero, invented Christ (who comes from the crucifixion in R6 75M years ago), and implanted their way to power.” (L. Ron Hubbard, HCO Bulletin, 23 September 1968, Class VIII).

Not sure what that one even means. I’ve seen these quotes before, all from secondary sources. I’m curious as to their accuracy.

And is reincarnation a required belief in Scientology, or can one ignore that? Seems resurrection (one life, one death, one body, one chance) and reincarnation (many lives, many deaths, many bodies, many chances) would be incompatible (e.g. Hebrews 9:27).

Phil P
 
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PhilVaz:
Hey Thetan what’s this about Jesus Christ being “just a shade above Clear.” I figure he’d have to be at least OT Level VIII. Confirm or deny? 😃

“Neither Lord Buddha, nor Jesus Christ were OT’s according to the evidence. They were just a shade above clear.” (Ability, No. 81, 1959).

Other questionable Hubbard quotes on Christianity here. Mind you, from a secondary online skeptical source.

And is reincarnation a required belief in Scientology, or can one ignore that? Seems resurrection (one life, one death, one body, one chance) and reincarnation (many lives, many deaths, many bodies, many chances) would be incompatible (e.g. Hebrews 9:27).

Phil P
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hi! lol i did laugh at your first joke.🙂 I’ve heard that quote a number of times, and honestly, I can neither confirm nor deny that Hubbard made such a statement. Scientology respects the values found in all religions, and does believe that Jesus was real and was crucified, etc. However, Scientology is not a Christian religion, or any other type of religion. It is an applied religious philosophy. If anything, I do believe that Jesus Christ was an OT, or operating thetan, using the literal definition of the phrase. It means to operate in/with the spirit. Of course, Jesus Christ was/is God, so that means much more than when applied to “normal”/regular people.

I don’t think that the belief in past lives(Scientology avoids the term reincarnation b/c it implies other life forms) is required, at least until a certain point(one of the highest levels I believe). It is extremely easy to go through Dianetics to Clear, without believing in past lives. I have done so(not saying that I’m Clear yet). I know a number of Scientologists that don’t believe in past lives, and Scientology works for them. I’ve also heard this stated on other forums discussing Scientology. However, I should say that most Scientologists don’t practice other religions, or, if they do/did, they end up just following Scientology, b/c when you get to the higher levels, I’ll admit that it makes life easier.
 
Thetan << hi! lol i did laugh at your first joke. >>

Good. 😃 I’ve edited my post. There are other “quotations” I’ve seen attributed to Hubbard that I’m curious about. Thanks for the replies. I live in St. Pete FL and used to work in downtown Clearwater.

Phil P
 
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ByzCath:
Thetan, can you tell us a little bit about Xenu?
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Xenu is frequently brought up by anti-Scientologists as proof that Scientology is bunk, a science fiction/UFO religion, based on fantasy, etc. Supposedly(at least according to all the anti-Scientology websites I’ve read), the Xenu story is told when one reaches OT III. As I am not an OT III, I can neither confirm nor deny that this story is real. I am wary to believe anti-Scientology webistes(which repeat the same things over and over), in the same way that I wouldn’t believe anti-Catholic websites to tell me what Catholics “really” believe. According to this story, 75 million years ago, there was a huge space battle, and this evil space king or whatever decided to kill all of these “humans”/“aliens” with hydrogren bombs placed in volcanoes. The dead souls/thetans of these people then become/became attached to our own, causing all of our problems.

But I’m sure you knew that already 😉

Once again, seeing as how I’m not an OT III, I can’t say that the story is true. However, I would never use an anti-Scientology website to tell me what Scientologists really believe. Would I use Chick Tracts to tell me what Catholics believe? Or one of the numerous cult websites or “Bible based Christianity” sites to tell me what Catholics believe on Mary, confession, the Eucharist, etc.? Therefore, I don’t give the “Xenu story” a second glance.
 
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PhilVaz:
Thetan << hi! lol i did laugh at your first joke. >>

Good. 😃 I’ve edited my post. There are other “quotations” I’ve seen attributed to Hubbard that I’m curious about. Thanks for the replies. I live in St. Pete FL and used to work in downtown Clearwater.

Phil P
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thanks for the quotes. Once again, I really don’t have a lot of knowledge on these quotes by Hubbard. I’ll try to do some research and ask other Scientologists about them. I will say that I’m sure that Hubbard said things that I don’t agree with(seeing as how we don’t believe him to be God, Savior, Messiah, Christ, Krishna, Kalki, etc.), however that doesn’t invalidate Scientology for me. Sorry for the lack of info in the response, but I’m about to leave, so I’ll provide better responses maybe tomorrow, definitely Saturday.
 
Would I use Chick Tracts to tell me what Catholics believe?

Yes, “The Death Cookie Tract” is completely true and accurate!

😛
 
Uh oh, I found a little more on Hubbard and Christian symbols as an “R6 Implant.” I think somebody should have given him a few books of Church history. :rolleyes:

From here

Hubbard, in a lecture to students of first Class VIII course on flagship Apollo, October 3, 1968, says that the use of the symbol of the crucified man goes back to 600 BC. With minor design differences, the symbol, and in fact, Roman Catholicism itself, are actually part of a series of implanted incidents called R6.

“Also the Christian Church used [and uses] implanting [with a squirrel version of the 7s’] These gangsters were the Nicomidians from lower Egypt who were chased out for criminal practices [Implanting officials]. They took over the Niocene Creed just before the year zero, invented Christ [who comes from the crucifixion in R6 75 million years ago] and implanted their way to ‘power’. The original Nicomidians date about 600 BC and people who were Christ date at 75 million years ago.”
– L. Ron Hubbard, “Resistive Cases, Former Therapy”

I’m neither confirming nor denying, this is just stuff you can find quickly with a Google search. It would be nice to find the original documents, but I’m sure that’s very difficult.

Phil P
 
once again, I would not believe a source whose introduction to Scientology is “A Hierarchy of Demons”, in the same way that I wouldn’t believe a website that introduces Catholicism as “The Cult of the Marian Goddess”.

when I searched Google for that book the quote comes from, surprise, they all are anti-Scientology websites, none referring to the actual Church of Scientology website.
scientology.org/html/opencms/cos/scientology/en_US/religion/heritage/pg005.html
 
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Lilyofthevalley:
Would I use Chick Tracts to tell me what Catholics believe?

Yes, “The Death Cookie Tract” is completely true and accurate!

😛
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Difference between the Jack Trick tracts and the information I have viewed is that the information is from ex-Scientologiests. Those who got out of the cult just giveing the information on what they were taught, or to be more correct, what they paid to learn.
 
Not to badger the visiting Scientologist, I’m glad he’s here to answer direct questions. But here is Hubbard speaking on Christ. Now if someone can just translate Scientology-speak into English. 😃

My rough transcript:

“Somebody, somewhere on this planet, back about 600 BC, found some pieces of R6. And I think how they found it, either by watching mad men or something, that since that time, they have used it. And it became what is known as Christianity. Uh, the man on the cross, there was no Christ, but the man on the cross, is shown as everyman…” (L. Ron Hubbard)

Some of these same quotations are found in this anti-Scientology document as well. See chapter 35 on “Scientology’s secret anti-Christianity.” I’m not saying this is an “objective” study or anything, but these quotes keep coming up… :o

Phil P
 
Thetan << I would not believe a source whose introduction to Scientology is “A Hierarchy of Demons” >>

You may have a point. I normally don’t trust a thing anti-Catholic sites say until I can verify. That is correct. However, now I have an audio clip of Hubbard talking about Christianity, R6 Implants, and “there was no Christ.” Unless that is not Hubbard, it seems the founder of Scientology didn’t think much of Catholicism (Christianity) or Christ.

Phil P
 
Corrected transcript, I listened with better speakers:

“Somebody, somewhere on this planet, back about 600 BC, found some pieces of R6. And I don’t know how they found it, either by watching mad men or something, but since that time, they have used it. And it became what is known as Christianity. Uh, the man on the cross, there was no Christ, but the man on the cross, is shown as every man…” (L. Ron Hubbard)

A fuller context of this paragraph in MP3 audio is here

This may not be Scientology’s current official view of Christianity (see the link above by Thetan for that), but this was L. Ron Hubbard’s view at least.

Hubbard on Catholicism as an "R6 Implant"

“Uh, the uh, entirety of Roman Catholicism, uh the devil and all this sort of thing, that is all part of R6.” (L. Ron Hubbard)

What is R6? What is an “implant” you ask?

Source: Wikipedia: “an implant is similar to an engram in that it is believed to condition the mind in a certain way. The difference is that an implant is done on purpose…Scientology practices often have to do with addressing implants taking place prior to the current lifetime – one of the most notable is the large R6 implant, said to have been placed in the human mind 75,000,000 years ago by Xenu – but in some cases current life implants are addressed.”

Another source defines it as: "IMPLANT: delusion implanted in us by the forces of evil."

Hear Hubbard speak on Christianity, R6 Implants, and the rest

More Hubbard Audio at Xenu.net

To be fair, there is no entry at the official Scientology site (that I could find) for “implant” (but there is for “engram”) or “R6” or even “Xenu” so it seems to be not a major part of the religion or philosophy, etc. I guess only John Travolta or Tom Cruise can tell us. 😃

Phil P
 
"The Christ Game" audio by L. Ron Hubbard

transcript:

“You’ll find, by the way, another manifestation is preclears will shift identities and borrow facsimiles like mad. There’s what they call the Christ game and that game has been played and played and played and played – honest to Pete, these cards are just so thin. They’ve been laid down amongst the coffee cups and so forth of a whole universe. You’ll find out thousands of years before the year one A.D. Earth, you will have facsimiles and dolls made up like Christ. Fac One a million years ago is occasionally rigged with Christ and the Devil and an angel. It’s a fascinating thing, it’s an old game.”

[comment: Fac One or Facsimile One is, in Hubbard’s cosmology, a mind control method used over 100,000 years ago to keep people in line]

“Here on Earth there was undoubtedly a Christ. One of the reasons he was…he swept in so suddenly uh…and…and he would go forward so hard is he had a good assist back of him in terms of an implant.”

[comment: Jesus was just using some of those implants put in us long ago to keep us under control]

next part not on audio:

“All right. Now he…you’ll find preclears, and this is a little problem that will come up with you. You’ll find preclears all of a sudden are Christ. You will actually find a preclear will go all the way through with a crown of thorns and every other darn thing. Just look for an overt act against Christ, and it solves itself. What they’ve done is picked up an implant phrase and done a mock-up on it. They can do it…they can do this. They pick up some kind of an implant or some kind of a terrible upset or a conviction of some sort or another, and then they’ll go ahead and, my lord, they’ll carry that cross clear up to the top of Golgotha and get themselves nailed on it, and uh…very few of them go to the point of getting the…the uh…gall bladder stuffed in their mouth or something like that – little Christian niceties – uh…but uh…they…they…they will be just about as good as this as they know about Christ. They’ll add no new data to the situation…Golgatha, oh, that…that’s really vicious. You go down an…an insane asylum corridor and you see these religious implants are just leaping, it’s something in the order – it’s at least one out of three inmates in any asylum are spinning on religion. Why? God occupies all space. That’s all you have to convince a guy and he’s dead. That’s right, that’s all God’s space and any space which you occupy will be God’s. Oh, brother, just look at that as an operation. The guy can’t throw out any anchor points of his own without getting God into that space. And he’ll spin like a…like a spinning mouse if he finally gets this down the line.”

(L. Ron Hubbard, December 9, 1952 from “What’s Wrong with This Universe: A Working Package for the Auditor” Philadelphia Doctorate Course, Lecture #24)

Again, I think I’ll need a translation into English. 😃

Phil P
 
Sorry to mention my cousin again.

A link was posted to the “Code of Honour” from the Scientology.org website. It begins:
  1. Never desert a comrade in need, in danger or in trouble.
My cousin contracted multiple sclerosis. I would say that would put hin in the category of “in need, in danger or in trouble”.

So why did the Scientology leadership totally disown him at this point? He didn’t want to leave. He was forced. I am not judging the entire organisation on this one case but I would like an honest answer as to why the Scientology leadership would “desert a comrade in need” and thus completely go against the very first point of their own code of honour.

I won’t post anything negative about your organisation or its beliefs. There would be no point. So I will stick to personal experiences. I am not a scientology source so my words would be highly suspect. www.clambake.org seems pretty good and even links to the official scientology website and has many, many quotes from Hubbard and many other sources. But of course it is an anti- website so don’t look at that. There’s even the famous anti- article from Time magazine that resulted in the CoS unsuccessfully suing Time-Warner. But don’t read that. You can even find Hubbard’s navy personnel record if that’s of interest. The trouble is, if your only source on Scientology is Scientology you do not get a chance to question things or see more than one side of a story.

My aunt took a test in a scientology “shop” in Brighton (before it burned down). She made the mistake of giving them her address and so received several pieces of mail from the organisation encouraging her to go further. She received several pieces of mail every week for several years. Now that’s what I call a heavy direct marketing campaign.
 
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Thetan:
when I searched Google for that book the quote comes from, surprise, they all are anti-Scientology websites, none referring to the actual Church of Scientology website.
scientology.org/html/opencms/cos/scientology/en_US/religion/heritage/pg005.html
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I assume that book you are referring to is the one quoted by PhilVaz in the previous post on this thread:

“Also the Christian Church used …”
– L. Ron Hubbard, “Resistive Cases, Former Therapy”

I searched Google for that book too:

scientology.org/wis/wiseng/42/71.htm

The title is that of a bulletin issued (or reissued?) by Hubbard in 1971, with the publication code “HCOB 25 Nov II”

The publication does exist. Of course I haven’t got a copy and am unlikely to get one so I cannot comment on its contents only the fact that such a document does exist.
 
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PhilVaz:
To be fair, there is no entry at the official Scientology site (that I could find) for “implant” (but there is for “engram”) or “R6” or even “Xenu” so it seems to be not a major part of the religion or philosophy, etc. I guess only John Travolta or Tom Cruise can tell us. 😃

Phil P
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Phil,
You will not find any entries at the official site as Scientology works sort of like a mystery cult.

Look back at Thetan’s reply to me about Xenu in post #88.

You are initiated into further knowledge that is not avalible to the uninitiated. That is if you can afford it.
 
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