What is the Church's position on the Intersexed and Transsexed?

[Elizabeth502]

Maam your whole attitude since doing a poll on putting a moratorium on intersex discussions has been very rude, not to mention sugesting the idea was rude. Don’t even think of brining up the disagreement card either. Magdeline and Xyneshia have have disagreed on these threaads and gotten along with us just fine. People in these threads keep reminding you, that with your responses it is obvious havent read much of the thread , yet you keep making assumptions. If forums like this become the mutual agreement society that you have implied you wish they were real life situations don’t get dealt with… Transsexuaism, HBS is very real and should be discussed, because there are two pretty well defined sides on the issue. one side of which seems to be really ignorant by their own choosing. theres lots that can be gained or lost over this issue, while people like you try to trivialize it. That I take umbrage with. If you treat people rudely it’s only logical to expect that in return.

Sir (or ma’am – being respectful not being sarcastic; choose your gender and I’ll call you that), your whole attitude has absolutely nothing to do with anything I have posted. Nothing. In several posts, including my most recent long one, I in fact acknowledged the very reality of the biological and physical situations described abundantly and in detail, some of them in a rather scientific way. You are so off-base with your evaluations of what I’ve said that they have no credibility. I have nothing even similar to the worldview you just asserted that I have. Rather, you read inaccurately and uncritically, then proceed to savage posters who have not made statements or held opinions you erroneously proclaim them to have. I have many agreements with many of the assertions made on this thread. The fact that I have selected disagreements with some of those assertions does not make me “rude,” – let alone have I stated my slight disagreements in a rude or dismissive way. Yet you have often done so to me, including here. It is you who trivialize, apparently, people who do not agree with you 100%, especially when they have solid and logical arguments on those peripheral but important points. I came on board this thread tentatively, as an open-minded listener and lurker, and only posted after learning, reading, and thinking. I have not condemned anybody or labeled anybody. Yet you have done so to me, so I see that you have never sought a real conversation, but rather domination and tyranny. I thought you wanted to engage posters and start a conversation that was more than one-way. Apparently not.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Sir (or ma’am – being respectful not being sarcastic; choose your gender and I’ll call you that), your whole attitude has absolutely nothing to do with anything I have posted. Nothing. In several posts, including my most recent long one, I in fact acknowledged the very reality of the biological and physical situations described abundantly and in detail, some of them in a rather scientific way. You are so off-base with your evaluations of what I’ve said that they have no credibility. I have nothing even similar to the worldview you just asserted that I have. Rather, you read inaccurately and uncritically, then proceed to savage posters who have not made statements or held opinions you erroneously proclaim them to have. I have many agreements with many of the assertions made on this thread. The fact that I have selected disagreements with some of those assertions does not make me “rude,” – let alone have I stated my slight disagreements in a rude or dismissive way. Yet you have often done so to me, including here. It is you who trivialize, apparently, people who do not agree with you 100%, especially when they have solid and logical arguments on those peripheral but important points. I came on board this thread tentatively, as an open-minded listener and lurker, and only posted after learning, reading, and thinking. I have not condemned anybody or labeled anybody. Yet you have done so to me, so I see that you have never sought a real conversation, but rather domination and tyranny. I thought you wanted to engage posters and start a conversation that was more than one-way. Apparently not.

In one ear and out the other. Just ask Xyneshia and Magdeline who have posted on these type threads if I get along with those in disagreement with me. Then I rest my case.

 

[aspawloski4th]

hyflyer, I think Elizabeth would be happier if you would place quotations from her posts in quote tags (highlight the text and click the dialog bubble in the post editor), instead of bold/red formatting. (The bold and red may come across as in The Scarlet Letter, “It’s bold and red because it’s wrong.”)

As for male and female, when looking at the Genesis story, we have Adam and Eve, man and woman. In a sense, it’s like you’re asking me to define the colors blue and yellow. It’s hard to define, but you know it when you see it. Don’t overanalyze reality, trying to force everything to fit square definitions. It leads one into endless spirals; what is the difference between sanity and insanity, reality and illusion, belief and faith? Life is complicated, but don’t overcomplicate it! Ultimately, scientific definitions are irrelevant (God and his creation exist without man’s thoughts); we are called to love God and our neighbors, and to life everlasting.

Hmm funny ,science irrelevent. Then I wonder why I was required to take 4 years of science at the Catholic highschool I went to. I’m glad your mindset doesn’t totally run the western world. We likely would still be living and working on the manor for an overlord.

 

[hyflyer64]

From everything I’ve ever seen from the Church, God does not put people “in the wrong bodies”. He puts them in their bodies. Again, we are not persons inside bodies; we are body-persons, souls combined with bodies. See my previous posts for more on this point. A body is not something you have; it’s something you are. You do not grow a penis like you’d grow a tumor. God created us male and female, not male to be female.

I can only say the same thing in so many different ways in so many posts. I guess, sometimes, we hear what we want to hear.

This attack on the nature of existence is very dangerous. Once you artificially split a person into “his soul” and “his body” and begin saying “his soul” has the wrong body, it’s not a big step to say a body has the wrong soul – and we are already claiming that some bodies do not have souls, with abortion and human cloning. (Also with animal cloning – animals have souls, by the way. They are material and perish at death, unlike our eternal souls.) I encourage all of you to study Pope John Paul II’s Theology of the Body, as I am, with Christopher West’s writings. It illumines God’s plan for us and the true nature of our existence as body-persons, spirit/body “hybrids” so to speak.

Just so we’re all on the same page, by the way, since I brought it up: The soul is infused into the body at conception.

Hun, just one point here that you need to get straight.
ANIMALS DO NOT HAVE SOULS!! There was a word used in ancient times that transalated to “soul” and was in refererence to “a life force” for man and animal. In no way did it mean that animals had a soul as we generally define “soul”.

Rachel

 

[Zoe_Brain]

In a sense, it’s like you’re asking me to define the colors blue and yellow. It’s hard to define, but you know it when you see it.
…
Ultimately, scientific definitions are irrelevant

You have accused people of committing evil. You have accused others of a masquerade. No, you don’t get a pass on this one. This is not merely a philosophical debate, where such woolly thinking is acceptable, you have made accusations of evildoing.

Justify them or be guilty of bearing false witness.

I’m not asking for a justification that I’d agree with, You’ve already stated that scientific facts are irrelevant to your case. I’m asking for a solid scriptural basis other than your personal opinion. Actually, I’m demanding one, or an apology for hasty words.

Why am I being so blunt - not my accustomed tone, and which goes against the grain? Because views like yours have been used to excuse the killing of people like me. The last time by one Allen Ray Andrade, recently found guilty of murder in the first degree for using a fire extinguisher to repeatedly bludgeon an 18 year old girl’s head until her skull shattered, and it became concave.

This was the first time such an excuse was not accepted in 32 years. The last time a conviction for pre-meditated murder of someone like me was deemed murder in the first degree was in 1977, because of views like yours.

 

[hyflyer64]

hyflyer, I think Elizabeth would be happier if you would place quotations from her posts in quote tags (highlight the text and click the dialog bubble in the post editor), instead of bold/red formatting. (The bold and red may come across as in The Scarlet Letter, “It’s bold and red because it’s wrong.”)

I just reread that post and you’re correct. The bold and red does come across as “It’s bold and red because it’s wrong.”
Well IMHO it is wrong!!

I feel that whatever I have contributed here, or may, is of little consequence and that my time and energy would be better used in say … volenteering at one of the local hospitals. (My priest did make it pretty clear that a church ministry would not be a good fit.) So, as soon as I have the time, that is where I will expend my energy. Hospitals never seem to have enough volenteers.
However, there is one thing that I would still like to get more information on. That is that goshdarn “secret” document from the Vatican. “My priest”, in explaining that he was too busy to look into it" ( It really is a busy time of the year for him! ) dismissed it as something that was in response to a specific incidence. I took that to mean that in his opinion, it didn’t matter what the Vatican had to say, what mattered was the unchanging Catholic doctrine etc, etc, … read the 6th commandment etc., etc.
As I said before, what’s the point?? For me, the deed is done!

So why is that document important to me, you may ask!!?? Because, others are following! Others are reading theese posts, and they are looking for answers.
Maybe there’s a priest reading this thread, and he’ll be kind enough to look into this for us.
I do remember that there is someone that may be able to help me with this!!??
If I come up with the info, I will post it. If the info comes from another source, Steffi has my e-mail address.

It has been interesting!!

Thank you all and God bless.

Rachel

 

[Dale_M]

I feel that whatever I have contributed here, or may, is of little consequence and that my time and energy would be better used in say … volenteering at one of the local hospitals. (My priest did make it pretty clear that a church ministry would not be a good fit.) So, as soon as I have the time, that is where I will expend my energy. Hospitals never seem to have enough volenteers.

Rachel, I am sorry if your participation here has been exasperating. I certainly get exasperated too, and take a break from CAF from time to time. It helps me keep perspective.

And I am dismayed that your priest has pushed you away from parish ministries. I’m not sure that his action is warranted, and rather suspect that he just didn’t want to deal with any difficulties… which is human enough. But disappointing and dismaying.

However, there is one thing that I would still like to get more information on. That is that goshdarn “secret” document from the Vatican. “My priest”, in explaining that he was too busy to look into it"

It would be interesting to read the document. I’ve poked around with Google and even checked the records at Archive.org, but couldn’t find anything. The most I found was a quote from the USCCB which relayed the information from the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith. In that quote, it says that the baptismal record should not be changed, but that a notation in the margin can be made to reflect the person’s changed sex.

“Therefore, even in cases of such operations the records are not to be altered.
Specifically, the altered condition of a member of the faithful under civil law does not
change one’s canonical condition which is male or female as determined at the
moment of birth. However, should a situation rise in which some sort of notation is
determined to be necessary, it is possible, in the margin of the entry for Baptism, to
note the altered status of the person under civil law. In such case, the date and
relevant protocol number of the civil juridic act or document should be included
along with, where possible, a copy of the documentation itself at that page of the
Baptismal Registry.”

dioceseofbmt.org/resources/resources/policies/SacramentalRecordKeeping.pdf

The lack of change in the baptismal registry is perhaps not surprising since even if a willful apostate jumps through all the hoops necessary (and there are a lot of them) to formally disassociate themself from the Catholic Church, guidelines are that only the parish record should be stricken, not the baptismal registry.

So why is that document important to me, you may ask!!?? Because, others are following! Others are reading theese posts, and they are looking for answers.

Yes, they will… which is why I hope you might return to these forums after some time away.

 

[aspawloski4th]

I just reread that post and you’re correct. The bold and red does come across as “It’s bold and red because it’s wrong.”
Well IMHO it is wrong!!

I feel that whatever I have contributed here, or may, is of little consequence and that my time and energy would be better used in say … volenteering at one of the local hospitals. (My priest did make it pretty clear that a church ministry would not be a good fit.) So, as soon as I have the time, that is where I will expend my energy. Hospitals never seem to have enough volenteers.
However, there is one thing that I would still like to get more information on. That is that goshdarn “secret” document from the Vatican. “My priest”, in explaining that he was too busy to look into it" ( It really is a busy time of the year for him! ) dismissed it as something that was in response to a specific incidence. I took that to mean that in his opinion, it didn’t matter what the Vatican had to say, what mattered was the unchanging Catholic doctrine etc, etc, … read the 6th commandment etc., etc.
As I said before, what’s the point?? For me, the deed is done!

So why is that document important to me, you may ask!!?? Because, others are following! Others are reading theese posts, and they are looking for answers.
Maybe there’s a priest reading this thread, and he’ll be kind enough to look into this for us.
I do remember that there is someone that may be able to help me with this!!??
If I come up with the info, I will post it. If the info comes from another source, Steffi has my e-mail address.

It has been interesting!!

Thank you all and God bless.

Rachel

Give it time to simmer over and you will be back. Iv’e got to admit Im tired of the rock headed attitude of some around here. Especially one who has seem to haved a fondness for rudely addressing me. Otherwise Rachel as little as we have correspnded and the little time we have know eachother through this forum. I do consider you a friend! Steff

 

[aspawloski4th]

Post 225 really troubles me. The poster appears to be urging another poster, who has come to terms with being on one particular end of the “Brain Sex” ** spectrum (while his body is on the other end), to reverse his resignation and begin to doubt how authentic his response is, or how effective his response is. This is unfortunately what a few of us were mentioning on a different but similar thread, if not on this one.

It is a modern, and especially Western, malady that it is always best to reconcile every doubt and to repair every disconnect: nothing must remain unresolved. If everyone acted radically on every unresolved aspect of their existence and of their choices, no one would commit to anything for any long period of time, and productivity would be seriously endangered. Most people have radical discomfort and/or indecision about at least one aspect of their lives, and for a prolonged period. Ask any priest if he’s ever entertained enormous doubt, or any parent, anyone committed to marriage or a particular career, or training for that career. Most people feel like doing or being something very different than who they are (or what they do) for at least part of their lives. Angst & doubt are part of the human condition. Sometimes it’s just best to ride it out. It may later become evident why one felt that way in retrospect, or it may later become evident that it’s time to change, but perhaps the indicated changes are internal, not external. Often the struggle or the disconnect is sanctifying: one discovers more about oneself (good, bad, or neutral); one learns to use a difficulty in a constructive way and thus transforms the difficulty into some powerful grace or insight for oneself and/or others.

Clearly I’m no expert on the thread’s subject, but I’ve lived long enough and known enough people to be able to admit that I’ve endured many things that I swore I would never tolerate, triumphed over many challenges that I was sure before they happened, I would be incapable of weathering without fatal injury to my happiness quotient. It takes awhile (years of being alive) to realize that one’s situation, whatever it is, does not control one’s happiness. One can be whole and integrated internally while enduring enormous difficulties and disconnects and even persecutions externally. We are not defined by how other individuals treat us or how society sees us or labels us. No matter what our situation – and whether we can do anything practical or physical about our situation – no one person or group can limit our happiness unless we allow them to.

It is perfectly logical to me (I’m well-read enough) that biological error happens on many fronts in the human person – from birth defects to physical sexual disconnects when one is apparently born one gender, biologically, but there is a physiological ambiguity that develops or co-exists – in terms of later hormones, organs, etc. Such situations would be utterly out of one’s control if they are truly physiological. I consider those to be objective disconnects. That is a very different thing than psychological disconnects, because the subjectivity and influence/suggestion involved in the latter make it too difficult to assess how genuinely ‘disturbing’ those are, and whether/to what degree surgery would be a healthy response – i.e., how “radical” the response need be, if action is indicated at all.

**According to authors Moir and Jessel, I’m pretty far on the feminine side of the spectrum, or at least I have been most of my life a “woman’s woman.” (I’m happy to say that I am less extreme with each passing year, the better I get to know and appreciate men. I’ve had plenty of male encounters in my life, but even with brothers, fathers, buddies, boyfriends, and marriage, it takes awhile to get inside the head of the opposite sex, which is why gay relationships are overall easier/more peaceful: communication & understanding is way easier.) So I’m trying to imagine what would I, Elizabeth, do, were I to find myself having the same brain but within a male body. I’d feel effeminate, that’s what I’d feel. Would I have an operation? Not unless male physical characteristics developed some time after my birth and I then wanted to return to my original, unified state.

It’s difficult for me to believe that there’s an epidemic of biological errors out there that makes surgery anything but rarely needed and rarely prudent.JMHO.

That attitude has chased someone who’s (name removed by moderator)ut I find highly valuable off this forum. Thanks alot! Don’t ever get the idea you are going to chase me off too. I’m glad there are not too many who think like you in the medical fields, or I’d have to move somewhere else for my condition to be taken care of propperly.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

I hope you might return to these forums after some time away.

Given that we’re 17 times more likely to be murdered than the average in the USA, and the rate of serious assault is quite a few percent a year - don’t bet on it.

Exposing oneself by performing good works increases those odds a lot. She has maybe a 1 in 10 chance of ending up in an ER within a year. She knows it too. We all do.

But how can we not help? How can those who have suffered stand back and see others suffer? If we were people like that, we would not have survived this long, we would have taken the easy way out by now.

Here’s the stats from one support group:

Our staff both moderators and supervisors are certified in youth suicide prevention. The fact is we have actual numbers not just an estimate. In a 5 year period here this site handled 78,800 suicidal crisis’s online. They were of 3 types. Type 3 being suicide ideation, type 2 being suicide ideation with a plan and Type 1 being actual suicide attempts.

Type 3 = 46933 Type 2 = 20238 Type 1= 11629

In addition in a survey here over 50% of Transsexuals had at least one suicide attempt by their 20th birthday some as young as 7. This was also verified by chat transcripts of the crisis’s especially in the early years.

Have you ever considered, really considered emotionally rather than intellectually, the statistic that half of us have self-harmed before age 20? That figure is from a peer-reviewed scientific study by the Scottish Office in the UK by the way, the figures from other sources are comparable.

I’m not asking you to understand the depths of despair. I’m asking you to realise what we older women are fighting for, to try to ensure that these kids don’t go through what we did.

 

[Dale_M]

Given that we’re 17 times more likely to be murdered than the average in the USA, and the rate of serious assault is quite a few percent a year - don’t bet on it.

Exposing oneself by performing good works increases those odds a lot. She has maybe a 1 in 10 chance of ending up in an ER within a year. She knows it too. We all do.

Those of us reading this should probably pray that such persons do not come to harm. I certainly will.

But how can we not help? How can those who have suffered stand back and see others suffer? If we were people like that, we would not have survived this long, we would have taken the easy way out by now.

If by “easy way out” you mean suicide (God forbid), I hope anyone considering such a thing reach out to others for help. Life can be very hard and to get by we all need help from friends, family, even from strangers. In addition to the normal hardships that most of us encounter in life, transsexuals seem to have to deal with social ostracism, hate crimes, plus medical issues (which here in the States includes the cost of hormones and surgery). It must take heroic courage to go on, day after day, month after month.

Here’s the stats from one support group:
Have you ever considered, really considered emotionally rather than intellectually, the statistic that half of us have self-harmed before age 20? That figure is from a peer-reviewed scientific study by the Scottish Office in the UK by the way, the figures from other sources are comparable.

Its staggering. In my family of six, it would mean that three of us attempted (not just thought about, but actually attempted) suicide. Its a stunning figure to try to imagine.

I’m not asking you to understand the depths of despair. I’m asking you to realise what we older women are fighting for, to try to ensure that these kids don’t go through what we did.

And thank God that women such as Rachel and you are helping. Its through such caring attitudes as yours that God brings about justice, love, and even happiness. I firmly believe that changes for the better are coming… and you are making them happen.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Those of us reading this should probably pray that such persons do not come to harm. I certainly will.

If by “easy way out” you mean suicide (God forbid), I hope anyone considering such a thing reach out to others for help. Life can be very hard and to get by we all need help from friends, family, even from strangers. In addition to the normal hardships that most of us encounter in life, transsexuals seem to have to deal with social ostracism, hate crimes, plus medical issues (which here in the States includes the cost of hormones and surgery). It must take heroic courage to go on, day after day, month after month.

Its staggering. In my family of six, it would mean that three of us attempted (not just thought about, but actually attempted) suicide. Its a stunning figure to try to imagine.

And thank God that women such as Rachel and you are helping. Its through such caring attitudes as yours that God brings about justice, love, and even happiness. I firmly believe that changes for the better are coming… and you are making them happen.

And to think a certain poster on this thread thinks this subject should be banned. Instead of the mutual admiration society some seem to want, this is just the type of discussion we need. A certain group of the faithfull ( transsexuals) is being marginalized ( I will leave to what degree to a diifernet debate) and its being discussed. I find it very unsettling that a group of people whoe’s suicide rate is much higher than the population at large, who are murder and violence targets much more often than the socalled narmal people are maginalized and pretty much poo pooed. I’m standing up to fight that attitude. To those who wish we would go away. We are here to stay!

 

[Zoe_Brain]

A letter I recently received from Dr Ecker, to whom many thanks:

Hi Zoe,

Yes, we gave our presentation to 60 plus psychiatrists from the US, AU, FR, IT, EU, UK, Holland etc.

We spoke for 2 1/2 hours on why cross gender identity was a normal inherited variation of humans. We showed how Transgender Brains think, smell, and hear like the opposite sex. We presented internationally accepted guidelines for hormonal treatment of transsexuals to be published Summer 2009.

Here are my slides and with my participants' permission I shall send you theirs. We are now in print in the APA Syllabus and soon in the APA Journal this summer. I am checking if we were recorded.

My greatest personal compliment came from Frank Kruijver, from Holland, whose research of the human brain in TSs started it all. He thought we have taken his work very far in our understanding of the human brain. Hope you can do something with this.

Sid Ecker, M.D.

The powerpoint presentation is at cs.anu.edu.au/~Zoe.Brain/BGI%203.3.2.ppt

Commentary and background at aebrain.blogspot.com/2009/05/brain-gender-identity-presentation-by.html along with reference lists and so on.

I implore anyone who is interested in the morality of the situation to view the science first. And if anyone has any contacts in the Magisterium who are tasked with dealing with such matters, please bring this to their urgent attention.

 

[melissa1980]

I have been among those who have viewed these and other threads relating to this topic and I decided it was about time that I gave up the shield of solitude and posted this my first post ever. The query whether this topic should continue to be addressed on this and other threads within CAF has caught my eye; thus, my writing.

I am among those who count themselves transsexed, a condition with which I was so long ago blessed. My awareness of my disquiet occurred during my fifth year and has now remained with me throughout decades as I struggled to gain hold, push it down into a corner of my mind, seek out a cure through counseling, whether psychological or ecclesiastical, and ultimately to accept realization the core of my being is female. Oh, I have pursued education, thinking to distract myself, and entered the practice of law with a vengeance. I walked headily among the ranks of the men who populated the courtrooms and boardrooms in which I was accepted knowing full well I was living a lie, a gut wrenching prospect for one whose career pursued truth and justice.

In my youth I found myself despondent at the growing pubescent hormonal flood and feigned illness to remain home from church one Sunday so to be alone with the knife that nearly removed that which disgusted me. Blood was everywhere. God stayed my executioner’s hand many a time; this because life was more precious than the quick out I had sought. So much more regarding the sanctity of life has been taught to me by Christ since those dark times.

Once disclosed as to my predicament, counseling was my lot and I readily learned my church could not embrace me; hence the relevance of this post to the thread. Time and again, pastors through the decades turned me away due to the perception of my sinner’s lot. Most recently, my pastor in a non-Catholic Christian congregation allowed me to know how I am not welcome; oh, but my nuclear family is welcome, just so they realize my attendance would not be allowed. Interestingly, such a pronouncement came prior to my step from the shore of acceptability through deceit into the waters of hormonally induced metamorphosis let alone that I should ever present once full time experience begins. Questioning brows have risen although my marriage is supportive, chaste, and celibate.

I have researched topics pertinent to the intersexed and transsexed as though pursuing the trial preparation of my lifetime, most especially with the dawning of the computer age [yes, I am a dinosaur whose history hearkens to the age of the mimeograph]. Education was my quest, answers my dream, and hope has been what saw me read page after page. I learned, among so many other things, that my national church organization wrestles with, but strains toward love and acceptance of intersexed and transsexed individuals. Desiring to learn more from the RCC, I came upon the pages of the CAF seeking to find answers to questions such as is posed by this thread.

I have been blessed to read all which has been written, both here and on related threads. The debate has taught me there are those who may continue to reject folk as I have been rejected; it has taught that some will ponder, question, and even stretch to understand concepts hitherto beyond their grasp; it has taught me some will respond upon the foundation of Christ’s boundless love although unable to accede to embracing physiological change as an acceptable therapeutic response; and it has taught that some will remain unable to grasp. Especially glad am I that Zoe was able to post today the APA presentation slides by Dr. Ecker. I am heartened to see the psychiatric thread originally presented to me during counseling in the mid-1970’s as a psychological disorder is under scrutiny and that medicine has serious clues to the etiology of the intersexed and the transsexed. My thanks go to all of you for engaging this very difficult discussion.

Blessings and hugs to all of you,
Melissa

 

[Gretta1]

God Bless you and your family, Melissa. You are very courageous. For what it is worth (and the fact that you are still with us certainly indicates that you knew this somewhere from deep within) is that despite what your pastor may say, you are profoundly loved by God. Don’t let any church-person tell you otherwise. And something else too. Since I have worked for an institutional Church, might I please apologize to you (and to Zoe, et al.) on behalf of your brothers and sisters in leadership positions in churches who over the years have caused so much hurt? I know it doesn’t take the pain away, and it probably isn’t worth much, but SOMEONE should be trying to heal rather than inflict additional pain. And since I’m unqualified to do much else, I’m at least qualified to do that! (FWIW)

I, too am a lawyer, and have tried to pursue truth and justice whenever and wherever it could be found. I don’t know what if any help my “legal” thoughts were, but at least within Catholic tradition, there are some issues that legal systems (even Church ones) are ill-equipped to answer. At least I think the RCC has some grasp of its limitations and I believe are deliberately remaining silent - at least from a legal perspective. I think I’d rather have the legal lacuna than an attempt to overreach - even though for some that silence is deafening.

May I add you and your family to my prayers - as I have with the other folks on this thread?

God Bless,

Gretta

 

[melissa1980]

Gretta-

Thankful am I to read of your compassion for one such as I. Truly, I know with my full awareness that none of us pass through this life without being profoundly loved by God. Some take thought to end torment through self destructive means. I know I have been there, and yet, I have an abiding love for God in my heart as well. Thus, I have been unable to culminate a self destructive scenario.

I know some are unable to reach in love and compassion to try touching the soul of hurting others. Still again, there are many like yourself who yearn to pray, yearn to listen, and yearn to understand the trials of another. I see such outreach as evidence of God among us. Yes, silence in some Church quarters may yield a deafening tone, but where there is silence, there may also be willingness to reach in compassionate attempts to understand the hurt of others. Each of us bound to this earth bear hurt of one sort or another, and if we reach out in compassionate Christ love, perhaps we may bring further evidence of God among us to the eyes of still another hurting soul.

I am ever grateful for the prayers of another and your willingness to add my family and I among your list of the others on this thread feels as a blessing to me.

May God Bless You As Well,
Melissa

 

[Zoe_Brain]

Since I have worked for an institutional Church, might I please apologize to you (and to Zoe, et al.) on behalf of your brothers and sisters in leadership positions in churches who over the years have caused so much hurt? I know it doesn’t take the pain away, and it probably isn’t worth much, but SOMEONE should be trying to heal rather than inflict additional pain. And since I’m unqualified to do much else, I’m at least qualified to do that! (FWIW)

It’s worth more than you know. I think St Peter will have to add an extra page in your account book, just for that.

Hugs and Blessings,
Zoe

 

[scameter]

To me personally, I think that people born with a mental gender different than their physical gender should not try to change anything, and since the only thing you can change in this instance is your body, you shouldn’t get a sex change. You should accept that your body’s gender is the one you were meant to have, and should either try to live by it, or be celibate, like homosexuals. Not that transgender and homosexual are the same of course, just similar in that people can be born with them, and they are sex-related. And, if a person is born with both genitalia, I think that they should use the one that fits their mental gender and treat the non-used genitals as a “thorn in my side”. But, again, this is my opinion, not official Church doctrine.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

Scameter - I appreciate your opinion. I do ask though that you conduct a little experiment, just to see what you’re asking of others.

For just one month, rather than decades, dress as the opposite sex. Pretend to be the opposite sex. Insist on people using the right pronouns, and an appropriate name. Act 24/7, using appropriate gait, vocabulary, and body language for your role.

See how you’re treated by society and everyone else. See how you feel, doing something that feels obscene and perverted.

Now to do things properly, you’d have to take hormones as well, which would chemically castrate you, but no need to go that far. Instead, just imagine it. Also imagine that not merely were you condemned to engage in this perverse behaviour, but a traditional “Mad Scientist” had kidnapped you, and surgically changed your body to match your act.

I’m not asking you to walk a mile in my shoes. Just a single step. If you can’t, then I don’t think you have the right to ask others to do for their whole lives what you won’t do for even a month, not even to understand what you’re asking of them.

I had to do something like that, not for one month, but for 565 months and twelve days. It gets worse, not better, over time. Fortunately for me, I have one of the truly rare Intersex conditions where the body naturally changes to match the brain. Not just the rare 1 in 50,000 who go from female to male, but one of the handful whose change goes the other way, that’s one in several million. Not a day goes by without me asking “Oh Lord, Why Me? Why not someone who deserved such a miraculous cure more than I did?”

For those who think that those with correctable congenital medical problems, such as a hare lip, a cleft palate, a club foot or heart defect - or cross-gendered body - should bear the thorn in their flesh and live with the body that they were given, I have one question:

Have you ever had a toothache, and dedicated your suffering to God, bearing the thorn in your flesh? Or did you always seek a dentist, not being willing to endure 1/1000 of the suffering that you think others should endure?

I still hope to find a person who is not an unconscious hypocrite, because the answer I’ve been given has always been the same.

I don’t blame you, by the way. Your position is quite understandable. I do ask you though to think about it, to think about my little experiment, and then to examine your own conscience. And if you have a toothache - please see a dentist. There’s enough unavoidable suffering in the world to add to it un-necessarily.

 

[melissa1980]

To me personally, I think that people born with a mental gender different than their physical gender should not try to change anything, and since the only thing you can change in this instance is your body, you shouldn’t get a sex change. You should accept that your body’s gender is the one you were meant to have, and should either try to live by it, or be celibate, like homosexuals. Not that transgender and homosexual are the same of course, just similar in that people can be born with them, and they are sex-related. And, if a person is born with both genitalia, I think that they should use the one that fits their mental gender and treat the non-used genitals as a “thorn in my side”. But, again, this is my opinion, not official Church doctrine.

Scameter-

I am reminded of Matthew 8:3 wherein leprosy was cleansed, Matthew 8:14-17 wherein it is reported that fever and diseases were healed, Matthew 9:1-2 bearing the report of the healing of paralysis, Matthew 9:20-22 reporting that a woman was healed of unrelenting bleeding, Matthew 9:27-34 recounting the healing of blind and mute individuals, Acts 28:8 speaking of the healing of one who was sick, among other citations pertinent to healing found within scripture, and reading your remarks I am stricken with the thought, was it improper for such healing to have occurred? Should those individuals have borne the thorn of their impediment as a living sacrifice and holy unto their natural end? Rather, was the miraculous healing a blessing given freely to those who would accept it?

Passage of time has brought us into an age wherein physical maladies of many sorts may be identified and addressed, bringing in many cases healing to those who need it. Much of the work of medicine in contemporary times bears witness to the movement of great works through the hands of inspired and educated health care workers, modern day dispensers of helps that seem “miraculous.” Others who have written in this thread have given lessons of fact and knowledge providing the foundation of recognition that the intersexed and transsexed struggle with definite medical issues, not choices. Cleft palate and hare lip have been mentioned as comparative medical scenarios which beg an obvious medical solution. Perhaps we should ratchet the call to action even more to the fundamental notion of life and death.

Following the rationale you bring to this thread, physical circumstances and maladies are but crosses we must bear or thorns in our sides. Is this equally true of those whose life is endangered? Is appendicitis begging surgery a thorn, or coronary artery blockages a cross? Should one submit in bearing up under the cross rather than permit treatment of cancerous illnesses? Must we withhold oxygen therapy from one who in providing the mineral wealth upon which industrialized society is based because they have the thorn of miner’s consumption? If you are appalled at the mention of withholding therapeutic treatment of such physical conditions, where is your sense of understanding when informed through this thread of the statistical heightened occurrence of death; that is DEATH to many to whom are dealt the intersexed or transsexed card of life, whether by their own hand or the hand of others through murder merely because the victim is what they are?

A story written by a famous author long ago propounded in part the notion of perpetuation of the status quo you sincerely laud using the following words “If they would rather die…they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.” [Dickens] I really would rather be allowed life, know the blessing of the healing all of my medical care givers can bring to me, and share the blessing of supporting one another as Christ admonished “Love one another as I have loved you.]” John 13:34

Once I purchased a shotgun at an event for charity, fancy that, and put it away not thinking again of it until I felt despondent. Wanting to know whether I could reach the trigger mechanism if the muzzle was in my mouth, I went to the safe, retrieved the weapon and put it to my palate. It tasted of metal and oil. I felt of the trigger and pressed, not thinking the weapon might have been cocked. I heard the click of the firing pin striking at nothingness. Chills ran through me. I cried. I could not do this. Perhaps I will forever avoid the finality of an appointment with the loaded version by following through the transitional therapy medicine has brought to this moment in my life. Oh, and yes, I have met preliminarily with the surgeon who will help me bring body in accord with my brain.

Melissa