What is the Church's position on the Intersexed and Transsexed?

[ethereality]

I had written a reply to the OP, but we’re thirteen pages in, so all the points I addressed have likely already been addressed …

If anyone’s interested, I can repost it … or PM it …

 

[hyflyer64]

I had written a reply to the OP, but we’re thirteen pages in, so all the points I addressed have likely already been addressed …

If anyone’s interested, I can repost it … or PM it …

All comments/replies are welcome.

 

[ethereality]

All comments/replies are welcome.

H’okay:

Isaiah 56:3-5 states categorically that they’re exempt from the normal rules of male and female behaviour.

Reading through Isaiah 56, that’s not true.

They must do what is pleasing to God and keep the Sabbath - that’s it.

Huh? It’s understood that God’s requirements of them are the same as everyone else’s. God’s simply saying in Isaiah 56.3-5 that God will reward them differently – through context it is clear that normal men and women are blessed with children from God, and here it says God has a different reward for them. That’s all this passage says – not that they are to lead different lives, but that their reward will be different. It’s very obviously discussing the problem of their infertility, as verse 4 states.

God does not make mistakes when He decides that some should have bodies of uncertain gender, or have brains of one gender and bodies of another. And that neither condition is the result of moral corruption.

I’ve bolded the lie you’re repeating from the popular culture. The idea that a man has a woman’s brain is ridiculous. You are correct: God does not make mistakes. However, this world is fallen and is passing away, as Paul writes in the New Testament. God did not pollute our planet and cause disease and birth defect – we did.

Reading through the Gospel account of Jesus healing one blind man, he is asked, “Why was this man born blind? Was it his sin or his parents?” Jesus replies neither, but simply that so he may be healed, “that the glory of God may be revealed.” God’s glory is not revealed in the birth defect, but in its healing.

I think it’s important to not take this passage too far, though. The Old Testament makes clear that sometimes we are punished – in the New Testament, Paul writes ‘chastised’ – for our sins. I think Jesus is saying here that this is not always the case, and Paul elaborates that we live in a fallen world, in the last days, as God is about to return to right what we had wronged.

However, all that aside, what exactly is Church teaching on the subject? This is especially important in view of His Holiness’s recent statements demanding respect for Church teaching that there is only male and female, and that the idea of “gender” rather than strict corporeal sex at birth is a danger to Humanity and contradicts God’s natural order.

I assume you’re not Catholic, because you seem to be missing and misunderstanding much of Church teaching .I highly recommend Christopher West’s Theology of the Body for Beginners and Good News about Sex and Marriage as he discusses Pope John Paul II’s Theology of the Body.

God’s plan for the infertile, intersexed, and those struggling with same sex attractions is clear when considering the Church’s teaching as a whole: They are called to love, chastity, and to lead good Christian lives, just like the rest of us. We are all called to take up our crosses and follow Christ. Married infertile couples may be called to adoption, and so on.

As far as intersexuality goes as a reality, I think one is either male or female, and things can get pushed out of whack, but deep down, one can ascertain which sex he really is. Genesis teaches us very explicitly that God makes us male and female. But just as God also makes us with sight and hearing, our bodies can be stricken with disease and disorder, which God did not intend. Also, bear in mind that marriage is an earthly institution only, so things will be different in heaven, especially when we receive glorified bodies.

I hope this post helps, although you may have heard all this before.

 

[hyflyer64]

You are correct: God does not make mistakes. However, this world is fallen and is passing away, as Paul writes in the New Testament. God did not pollute our planet and cause disease and birth defects – we did.

God’s glory is not revealed in the birth defect, but in its healing.

God’s plan for the infertile, intersexed, and those struggling with same sex attractions is clear when considering the Church’s teaching as a whole: They are called to love, chastity, and to lead good Christian lives, just like the rest of us. We are all called to take up our crosses and follow Christ. Married infertile couples may be called to adoption, and so on.

I pray, for your sake, that your cross is light!

As far as intersexuality goes as a reality, **I think **one is either male or female, and things can get pushed out of whack, but deep down, one can ascertain which sex he really is. Genesis teaches us very explicitly that God makes us male and female. But just as God also makes us with sight and hearing, our bodies can be stricken with disease and disorder, which God did not intend. Also, bear in mind that marriage is an earthly institution only, so things will be different in heaven, especially when we receive glorified bodies.

Some times thinking is not all that great. Especially so if you don’t have all the facts.
I’m sure that in your persute of a degree in physics, you will become very well educated in that field and that in some cases the way you “think” will be challanged.
I would suggest that if you haven’t read all of Zoe’s posts, related to this subject, that you will find a lot of very useful information. She covers, in great detail, just what you “think” of.

I hope this post helps, although you may have heard all this before.

I’m curious as to what part of the country you grew up in, if you would care to share!!??

Rachel

 

[RedGecko]

As far as intersexuality goes as a reality, I think one is either male or female, and things can get pushed out of whack, but deep down, one can ascertain which sex he really is.

I think you are saying that the person affected by intersex is able to ascertain his or her sex. Is that what you mean? Or do you mean that other people are to say what his or her sex may be?

 

[Zoe_Brain]

I’ve bolded the lie you’re repeating from the popular culture. The idea that a man has a woman’s brain is ridiculous.

Men don’t. Women do - even if the rest of the body looks male.

I’ll repeat some of the evidence, and all of what I quote is available online. This is not from “popular culture”, it’s from autopsies, MRI and PET scans, many of them conducted only in the last few years (or even weeks…).

Regional gray matter variation in male-to-female transsexualism by Luders et al in Neuroimage. 2009 Mar 30.

…MTF transsexuals show a significantly larger volume of regional gray matter in the right putamen compared to men. These findings provide new evidence that transsexualism is associated with distinct cerebral pattern, which supports the assumption that brain anatomy plays a role in gender identity.

Male-to-female transsexuals show sex-atypical hypothalamus activation when smelling odorous steroids. by Berglund et al Cerebral Cortex 2008 18(8):1900-1908;

…the data implicate that transsexuality may be associated with sex-atypical physiological responses in specific hypothalamic circuits, possibly as a consequence of a variant neuronal differentiation.

Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041

The present findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go into opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder.

Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation. Swaab Gynecol Endocrinol (2004) 19:301–312.

Solid evidence for the importance of postnatal social factors is lacking. In the human brain, structural diferences have been described that seem to be related to gender identity and sexual orientation.

A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.

Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones

A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity. by Garcia-Falgueras et al Brain. 2008 Dec;131(Pt 12):3132-46.

We propose that the sex reversal of the INAH3 in transsexual people is at least partly a marker of an early atypical sexual differentiation of the brain and that the changes in INAH3 and the BSTc may belong to a complex network that may structurally and functionally be related to gender identity.

fMRT zur Diagnose bei Transsexualität geprüft Ärzte Zeitung, 30.05.2006

So würden bei Männern das limbische System und dort vor allem Regionen im Hypothalamus, in den Mandelkernen und im Inselkortex wesentlich stärker aktiviert. “Diese Vorbefunde konnten wir beim Vergleich der heterosexuellen Männer und Frauen unserer Kohorte bestätigen”, sagte Gizewski.

Bei den transsexuellen Männern gab es diese spezifisch männliche Aktivierung des limbischen Systems nicht. Die mit der fMRT erzeugten Bilder entsprachen vielmehr exakt denen der weiblichen Probanden.

Die Radiologen können also das, was die transsexuellen Männer angeben - daß sie sich nämlich "wie im falschen Körper" fühlen - anhand der Aktivierung des Gehirns auf erotische Stimuli bestätigen. Es gibt offenbar ein biologisches Korrelat des subjektiven Befunds.

Translation:

In men, the limbic system and upper regions of the hypothalamus, the amygdalae and the insular cortex were activated substantially more strongly. "We confirmed this finding in the comparison between the heterosexual men and women of our Cohort", said Gizewski.

This specifically male activation of the limbic system was not found in the transsexual sample. Under fMRT, the pictures corresponded rather accurately to those of the female sample.

Radiologists can now confirm what transsexuals report - that they feel "trapped in the wrong body" - on the basis of the activation of the brain when presented with erotic stimuli. There is obviously a biological correlation with the subjective feelings.

Those are just some of the 320-plus papers on the subject that I know of. This post is already overly long.

This isn’t some “popular superstition” with no scientific basis, quite the contrary. It’s the fashionable belief that the idea of cross-gendered neurology is “ridiculous” that doesn’t fit the facts.

As to how the brain becomes cross-gendered, that’s an area we are starting to get a good handle on. The fact that 1 in 5 46xy (usually male) foetusses exposed to the drug DES ended up being transsexual women was proof positive that hormonal environment in the womb was causal in at least some cases. However, it also looks like a genetic pre-disposition plays a part, that certain gene sequences make transsexuality more likely.

Androgen Receptor Repeat Length Polymorphism Associated with Male-to-Female Transsexualism by Hare at al Biological Psychiatry Volume 65, Issue 1, Pages 93-96 (1 January 2009)

A polymorphism of the CYP17 gene related to sex steroid metabolism is associated with female-to-male but not male-to-female transsexualism by Bentz et al Fertility and Sterility , Volume 90 , Issue 1 , Pages 56 - 59

As it turns out, all the transsexual people who have testified that they are “men trapped in women’s bodies” - or the reverse - well, in one sense they are literally correct. Not on the basis of their feelings, but on their neuro-anatomy.

Those who callously denied their narratives as “ridiculous” turn out to be not just lacking in charity, but factually incorrect. Not that I can blame them, because we lacked evidence, and “extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof”.

 

[Ridgerunner]

If I’m not greatly mistaken, it was Johns Hopkins that quit doing sex change operations some time ago because, in studying them, they found that a lot of it; perhaps most, of those who desired it were fetishists, narcissists or otherwise extremely disordered people.

And, of course, since the things one does can affect brain function and even physiology, it cannot be assumed that, e.g., disordered impulses do not change brain function or architecture any more than it can be assumed that drug use does not. (which the latter certainly does) Even undertaking mental challenges does that.

But in any event, if my body, say, produces a superabundance of testosterone so that I am inclined to seek out many sexual partners, and might have drives in that direction, does that mean the Church has to accommodate that somehow?

I understand there are some few people who can even have confused chromosomes and uncertain secondary gender characteristics. But that does not mean that a desire, on the part of an otherwise normal human, to direct his or her sexual drives toward one of the same sex, or is fixated on the idea that he should be she or she he, somehow means that having such desires carries a moral mandate that they should be physically fulfilled.

 

[magdelaine]

I understand there are some few people who can even have confused chromosomes and uncertain secondary gender characteristics. But that does not mean that a desire, on the part of an otherwise normal human, to direct his or her sexual drives toward one of the same sex, or is fixated on the idea that he should be she or she he, somehow means that having such desires carries a moral mandate that they should be physically fulfilled.

I found it helpful to understand that this condition is not based on sexual desire nor is sex-based at all. Rather, it’s about identity and the perception that you are one gender while your body is the other. Or you are intersexed and not clearly one gender or another.

It is a physical condition with biological qualities, not about behavior. I’m familiar with the John’s Hopkins problems/research; it may be that a few “fetishists” were among those surgically altered in the beginning; but that is not a reasonable conclusion to draw about all those afflicted in this way.

 

[Theresa_Frances]

But in any event, if my body, say, produces a superabundance of testosterone so that I am inclined to seek out many sexual partners, and might have drives in that direction, does that mean the Church has to accommodate that somehow?

QUOTE]

I think you are confusing two completely different situations, and not drawing an accurate parallel. If, as you theorize, an over abundance of testosterone has that effect on behaviour couldn’t it be controlled by medication that would bring the testosterone level to a more normal level. Gender identity issues are not caused by the level of estrogen vs testosterone in the individuals system, I am not aware of any evidence that gender identity can be pushed in another direction by any medication. The only effective treatment that is known so far is cross hormone therapy and reassignment. When the mental and physical aspects of gender are in concert with each other why is it so wrong to accept hat person in their identified gender.

 

[ethereality]

I think you are saying that the person affected by intersex is able to ascertain his or her sex. Is that what you mean? Or do you mean that other people are to say what his or her sex may be?

I mean that, the person, with his cooperation with God’s grace and perhaps with the help of others, is able to ascertain his true sex, despite any physical abnormality. I stress again – on a slightly different note – that God does not make mistakes, and bodily mutilation (“sex change operations”) to pretend to be a member of the opposite sex is certainly not an answer to a presumed accident.

 

[ethereality]

I’ll repeat some of the evidence, and all of what I quote is available online. This is not from “popular culture”, it’s from autopsies, MRI and PET scans, many of them conducted only in the last few years (or even weeks…).

Regional gray matter variation in male-to-female transsexualism by Luders et al in Neuroimage. 2009 Mar 30.

Male-to-female transsexuals show sex-atypical hypothalamus activation when smelling odorous steroids. by Berglund et al Cerebral Cortex 2008 18(8):1900-1908;

Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041

…]

Translation:

Those are just some of the 320-plus papers on the subject that I know of. This post is already overly long.

This isn’t some “popular superstition” with no scientific basis, quite the contrary. It’s the fashionable belief that the idea of cross-gendered neurology is “ridiculous” that doesn’t fit the facts.

You’re getting caught up in politics. I omitted the part at ‘…]’ that I skipped over, once the trend of what you’d cited became clear: There is a non sequitur leap to “women in man’s body” simply from similarities between brains. That is garbage. It is true that what you think shapes your brain, so there is also confusion concerning cause and effect – if you think you are the opposite sex for an extended period of time, yes, your brain will start to shape it. But grasping at straws like variations in gray matter? Give me a break!

I can cite all kinds of similarities between me and a chimpanzee, but that does not mean that I am one. What does it mean, to have the mind of a woman? It means to be a woman and have a mind. If you are a man, then, by definition, your brain is not female. Sure, your brain can resemble a female’s brain – just as women who exercise excessively can resemble men.

By the way, I really don’t want to get wrapped up in a big internet argument. I want to help if I can, not try to prove myself right.

 

[ethereality]

I pray, for your sake, that your cross is light!

Well, I think a cross, by definition, is not light. Jesus didn’t just die – he suffered.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

If you are a man, then, by definition, your brain is not female.

And the corollary is, that if your brain is female, than you cannot be a man. I agree.

As for the rest, define “male” and define “female” please. Bear in mind I’m Intersexed, so biologically speaking, neither 100% one or the other. More female than male though,

 

[Theresa_Frances]

I mean that, the person, with his cooperation with God’s grace and perhaps with the help of others, is able to ascertain his true sex, despite any physical abnormality. I stress again – on a slightly different note – that God does not make mistakes, and bodily mutilation (“sex change operations”) to pretend to be a member of the opposite sex is certainly not an answer to a presumed accident.

I believe as strongly as you do the God does not make mistakes. He is a perfect being and that is incongruent with any possibility of Him making a mistake. However, birth anomalies do exist. As much as within yourself your concept of your gender is in aggreement with your physical makeup, within others there is the concept that they are of one gender but their physical makeup does not reflect that. There seems to be a presumtion that we all have not exhausted every avenue in an attempt to accept our physical makeup. I did consider the enormity of the medical procedures to bring my physical reality and mental reality into congruence. I don;t agree with your idea that thinking you are the opposite sex for an extended period causes your brain to become shaped that way. The inner concept that we are of a certain gender is formed before we are consciously thinking we are one gender or the other.

 

[pathia]

If I’m not greatly mistaken, it was Johns Hopkins that quit doing sex change operations some time ago because, in studying them, they found that a lot of it; perhaps most, of those who desired it were fetishists, narcissists or otherwise extremely disordered people.

A man who intended it to be shut down was put in charge of it, so he shut it down. There was no studies, no nothing. He just didn’t believe in it himself, so he had it shut down. Paul McHugh was his name, his studies are not considered well done or accurate.

I know some older transsexuals who were part of that program, they all seem to have ended up on the street as prostitutes, drug users and homeless for quite some time, because their entire network was just completely shut down. They had nothing and the homeless shelters kicked them out of course. Quite a few ended up dead as I understand it, but this is all third hand, still it doesn’t sound like it was handled very well at all. I thought I knew a lot of dead trans folk, but those that lived through that event know far more than I.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Ridgerunner;5074180:

But in any event, if my body, say, produces a superabundance of testosterone so that I am inclined to seek out many sexual partners, and might have drives in that direction, does that mean the Church has to accommodate that somehow?

QUOTE]

I think you are confusing two completely different situations, and not drawing an accurate parallel. If, as you theorize, an over abundance of testosterone has that effect on behaviour couldn’t it be controlled by medication that would bring the testosterone level to a more normal level. Gender identity issues are not caused by the level of estrogen vs testosterone in the individuals system, I am not aware of any evidence that gender identity can be pushed in another direction by any medication. The only effective treatment that is known so far is cross hormone therapy and reassignment. When the mental and physical aspects of gender are in concert with each other why is it so wrong to accept hat person in their identified gender.

I think you misinterpreted what I said. My point was that EVEN IF there are physiological conditions that predispose one to one kind of sexual activity or another, one is not a prisoner of that condition or predisposition.

I would mightily disagree that “cross hormone therapy and reassignment” is effective in truly turning a man into a woman or a woman into a man. Clearly, it can’t, and doesn’t. What it can do cosmetically, is confirm in that person, only partially of course, the notion that a subjective self-judgment is objective reality.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Having said what I said above, I will readily concede that nothing I can say will persuade a person who has come to the belief that his or her biological gender is somehow incorrect. I have no doubt whatever that the thinking of those who have come to that belief is far too deeply rooted to be anything but beyond any ability I might have to set it aright.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Having said what I said above, I will readily concede that nothing I can say will persuade a person who has come to the belief that his or her biological gender is somehow incorrect. I have no doubt whatever that the thinking of those who have come to that belief is far too deeply rooted to be anything but beyond any ability I might have to set it aright.

Two things. Go to your local library and look books up on the subject. I sugess True Selves. TrueSelves is a complete yet concise book on the subject. When what you read starts sounding not logical to you, look in the foot notes ad bibliography. You will see it’s backed up. Second are you able to agree to disagree?

 

[aussie_jaz]

i find it quite interesting that people will readily post their personal views on here without reading not just the posts on the thread but also not look at any of the links to the proof that have been put on here and then assert their views in such a way that shows they think they have the truth which funnily enough is completely opposite to the proof that has been shown.
no matter how much some believe it , gender is not immune to natures mistakes.whether you like it or not it has been proven time and again that it is not just a ‘feeling’ but a fact.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

Having said what I said above, I will readily concede that nothing I can say will persuade a person who has come to the belief that his or her biological gender is somehow incorrect…

Why?

Look, I went into my change convinced that I was delusional. I figured I had to be - changing from male to female by natural causes was impossible. Or if not, so rare as to be ridiculously improbable. Madness was far more likely, by a factor of a million to one.

I took a lot of convincing.

Even then, I thought that with some FtoM techniques, I could keep my son, my marriage, my family, my career, in fact, everything I ever valued. All I had to do was get some psychiatric treatment so I didn’t have this crazy (and destructive to my life) notion that I was female. There had to be something.

Well, not that the professionals knew of. OK, maybe they were wrong. So I did some research. And every piece of evidence I found showed that this was an Intersex condition, that male and female brains differed.

I didn’t want that. But I’m a scientist, and I have to go by the evidence.

All you have to do to get me to change my mind is give me some new facts, some new data that contradicts my views. I’ve already changed my mind on some of the details as things have become more clear with new data.

But pending that though - no matter how personally inconvenient, how complicated, how unpopular my views, they remain my best, most honest guess.

Can you say the same, or are your views unfalsifiable regardless of evidence?