What is the Church's position on the Intersexed and Transsexed?

[aspawloski4th]

In my history my parents before me and then I pursued every therapy imaginable mentioned in prior posts on this and other threads enduring at one point hospitalization followed by the everlasting pain and anguish produced either by the therapies themselves or by the disquiet in my brain body/whole body discontinuity. The psychotherapeutic bent toward counseling, religious counseling and healing opportunities, medical therapies to overcome prior depression medicinally, and all of this was based upon the archaic notion that the manifestation was psychological or sin based possession and I tried through attempts at obedience to buy into that train of thought commencing in the late sixties and progressing through a crisis period a few years ago.

At long last, my caregivers showed me the path to reconciling body brain to body whole and HRT was commenced. In reality they had explained and pointed me in the direction of that therapy many years ago, but I tried in vain to resist for reasons personal to me. Immediately upon commencing HRT I settled in. The path leads through a lot of thorny places, but I now feel much more at peace. My caregivers while pronouncing on my stability also noted that if the HRT had not been inappropriate for me, it would have been very apparent from the first administration of the medicinal therapy by way of a negative reaction. To date, no effective treatment was found for me until proceeding with the commencement of transitional work with HRT.

I participate in this thread looking for the Church position on intersexed and transsexed, and yet I feel at peace in my relationship with God regardless of any stated Church position, and yes, I still pray about my approach and its ultimate outcome.

Sounds all logical and good to me. If that could happen with more people it would be a better world.

 

[melissa1980]

In my history my parents before me and then I pursued every therapy imaginable mentioned in prior posts on this and other threads enduring at one point hospitalization followed by the everlasting pain and anguish produced either by the therapies themselves or by the disquiet in my brain body/whole body discontinuity. The psychotherapeutic bent toward counseling, religious counseling and healing opportunities, medical therapies to overcome prior depression medicinally, and all of this was based upon the archaic notion that the manifestation was psychological or sin based possession and I tried through attempts at obedience to buy into that train of thought commencing in the late sixties and progressing through a crisis period a few years ago.

At long last, my caregivers showed me the path to reconciling body brain to body whole and HRT was commenced. In reality they had explained and pointed me in the direction of that therapy many years ago, but I tried in vain to resist for reasons personal to me. Immediately upon commencing HRT I settled in. The path leads through a lot of thorny places, but I now feel much more at peace. My caregivers while pronouncing on my stability also noted that if the HRT had not been inappropriate for me, it would have been very apparent from the first administration of the medicinal therapy by way of a negative reaction. To date, no effective treatment was found for me until proceeding with the commencement of transitional work with HRT.

I participate in this thread looking for the Church position on intersexed and transsexed, and yet I feel at peace in my relationship with God regardless of any stated Church position, and yes, I still pray about my approach and its ultimate outcome.

Thank you aspawloski4th, and please forgive my typographical error, corrected below:

My caregivers while pronouncing on my stability also noted that if the HRT had been inappropriate for me, it would have been very apparent from the first administration of the medicinal therapy by way of a negative reaction.

I guess even if I am stable, I can type incorrectly.

 

[GW]

The People’s Miss CA has gay marriage bullies on the run. Apparently, some major LGBT groups are trying to call off the same-sex attack dogs to prevent further backlash. Post comments at link now to let your voice for family and marriage be heard

tinyurl.com/mdmrxu

We need good Catholics to stand up for all good people who take a stand for the truth. Our futures are all tied together.

 

[aspawloski4th]

The People’s Miss CA has gay marriage bullies on the run. Apparently, some major LGBT groups are trying to call off the same-sex attack dogs to prevent further backlash. Post comments at link now to let your voice for family and marriage be heard

tinyurl.com/mdmrxu

We need good Catholics to stand up for all good people who take a stand for the truth. Our futures are all tied together.

Um what does this have to do with this thread? Please stop trying to hijack this thread, and post in a more appropriate thread. Gay marriage and transsexuaism have nothing to do with eachother at all.

 

[melissa1980]

Um what does this have to do with this thread? Please stop trying to hijack this thread, and post in a more appropriate thread. Gay marriage and transsexuaism have nothing to do with eachother at all.

Thank you Aspawloski4th, well said.

 

[jhash1]

Loving God,

We lift up in prayer the intentions today of all your people who have endured great suffering in this thread and ask for your blessings, mercy, strength, and the presence of your comforting and consoling Holy Spirit to be with them. Lord, you love each one of us unconditionally and your desire is for each of us to be with you. Please help all of your children, and especially the folks on this thread, to receive and experience your peace in their lives. They have been through a tremendous challenge and continue to be challenged, and they need your courage and hope to continue to live out the life you have planned for each one. Lord, we pray for both the persons who experience the physical and biological challenges, as well as those who choose to comment or express opinions on the situation of the folks affected with the physical and biological challenges.

We pray in the name of your beloved son Jesus, the Good Shepherd of your people.

Amen.

*Note: dear friends, I have just read this entire thread. I have learned how much I don’t know about this subject. I have no answers or opinions, the only thing I seem to be able to contribute is a prayer for all involved. *

 

[Zoe_Brain]

jhash1

Thank you.

1 Corinthians 13 (KJV wording)

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Thank you for reminding us all of that, by your example.

God Bless,
Zoe

 

[melissa1980]

It is in the willing charity of any who will pray that we are blessed beyond measure. The Church is so evident in the presence of the people who will open themselves to knowledge, understanding at any level, and then the gift of oneself to pray. My heart is touched by an open demonstration that although questions remain and understanding may be at best fleeting, the gift of charity and prayer is so freely given. It is this spirit of oneness in the faith which keeps me centered, all talk of specific issues aside. Jhash1 has given all who read this thread much in his demonstration of Christ love.

Blessings,
Melissa1980

 

[Zoe_Brain]

On those things which the church remains officially silent, one then must resort to one’s own conscience, laws governing similar situations, and the advice of a spiritual director/confessor to determine the morality of such an issue.
…
Now think about this using the rules above. They have defined “transexual” in a very limited way, based on a very clear distinction of having an “unambiguous sexual determination.” But, I believe that it WAS INTENTIONAL that this definition did not include those people whose gender identity issues are biological. Why? Because as you have pointed out, the issues are so complex with so many variations that it is legally/pastorally impossible to make one statement encompassing all of these permutations. Thus, instead of attempting it, the Church is remaining INTENTIONALLY silent. And even more heartening, this silence comes AFTER they concluded their study on the issue - thus it would seem that they rejected Dr. McHugh’s argument that all issues of transsexualism are mental in origin. Thus, the theologians decided that the best and most pastoral way to proceed was to not address the broader issue, but to only deal in a very limited way that aspect of transsexualism that they believed they could address.
…
Another limitation of this system is that for those of us who like certainty the silence seems particularly cold. But I really think that this is such a complex biological issue with such profound life ramifications that giving the individual the freedom to trust their consciences is the best they can do. Unfortunately, this often leaves the individual to cope on the local level with authorities who may have less of an understanding of the issue. However, better that than attempting to make a single theological pronouncement that by necessity takes a complex issue and simplifies it to its most absurd so that one can have a generalized rule on the subject.

I hope that knowing HOW the Church thinks might give you some peace. It won’t make dealing with local folks any easier, but you can have some sense that the greater Church trusts your innate sense of what is right - and that it is not condemning you for a biological issue that you did not create.

And most importantly I reiterate much like other families, your larger Catholic family loves you. You are a loving person who is doing your best under exceptionally difficult circumstances. Families are not always the most sensitive to our brothers and sisters needs, and some families can be downright insensitive to each other. However, we have a loving Father who is very proud of His creation, and a Brother/Savior who was willing to die for you. So, you must be something pretty special! Gretta

The Practice:

An Edmonton teacher has filed a complaint with the Alberta Human Rights Commission after he was fired by a Catholic school board for telling it he was changing his gender.

Jan Buterman, who worked as a substitute teacher for about six months, was removed from the Greater St. Albert Catholic school board’s substitute teacher list last year.

Born as a woman, Buterman is transitioning to become a man and told the school board he had gender identity disorder.

In a letter, Steve Bayus, deputy superintendent of schools for Greater St. Albert, wrote that in discussions with the archbishop of the Edmonton diocese, it was their view that “the teaching of the Catholic Church is that persons cannot change their gender. One’s gender is considered what God created us to be.”

Bayus said the board, which oversees public Catholic schools in several communities north of Edmonton, purposely hires teaching staff who are "models and witnesses to the teachings of the Catholic Church.

“Since you made a personal choice to change your gender, which is contrary to Catholic teachings, we have had to remove you from the substitute teacher list,” Bayus wrote.

“Your gender change is not aligned with the teachings of the church and would create confusion and complexity with students and parents as a model and witness to Catholic faith values.”

Bayus notes that Buterman has “served the schools well” as a substitute teacher.

The teachers union has lodged the complaint on Buterman’s behalf with the human rights commission.

Buterman is currently out of work and money and living in social housing while he waits for a resolution.

I don’t need to make a comment.

 

[Liraco]

Just because it says “Catholic” doesn’t mean they’re going to handle things in the best or even in the proper manner. Just look at the Notre Dame scandal.

The school assumed that the sex change was simply a “choice” (like some elective surgery) instead of trying putting things right with mind and body as you’ve explained, Zoe.

I do understand the concerns about “confusion” though, especially in a time where schools are teaching that being gay is perfectly natural, and in Canada where so many things are going to the gutter.

Certainly a touchy subject, and there needs to be more definitive proof of these issues to make it easier to determine a course of action. Hopefully this will be soon rather than later.

As it stands, I imagine it’d be hard to make accurate assessments of who really does have an issue like yours, Zoe as opposed those who are honestly just mentally ill/troubled (which is what the “ban” is on).

Sad to see this is what brought you back here, but I hope all is well with you and your family, Zoe. God bless you.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

Oh yes - the school in question in publicly funded. It’s not a private school, the Church is merely licensed to run it for the education authority. The school administration just decided to ignore their legal obligations “as a matter of conscience”, on the orders of the local Archbishop.

The reason given, that this guy insufficiently reflects Catholic values - is even more anomalous - he’s a Lutheran, and they had no problems with that.

I suspect just a teeny bit of Transphobia here on the part of the Archbishop, rather than a considered decision in consultation with canon and secular lawyers. Just a hunch, mind you.

Thanks so much for the warm greetings and blessings. Yes, my family and I are fine, we just returned from a 2 week trip to Hawaii, where I got to talk to Prof Milton Diamond - who is to the science of Sex and Gender what Albert Einstein was to Physics. The man who exposed Dr Money’s falsification of data in the tragic David Reimer case.

May the blessings you sent me be sent back a thousandfold.

Hugs, Zoe

 

[Ryckie]

Zoe, Dr. OZ yesterday here in the states had a show on children born intersexed! It was done very well and I hope either you have seen it or can see it. I think it would be awesome for you to see the progression we can make if we try. You are also helping in this progression by your testimony and with your knowledge, thank you. I will continue to pray for you and your family, but can’t help but hope one day you will want to be Catholic.
May God Bless you greatly! Ryckie

 

[Zoe_Brain]

Zoe, Dr. OZ yesterday here in the states had a show on children born intersexed! It was done very well and I hope either you have seen it or can see it.

Thanks Rykie. It’s online, and not only did I see it, I blogged about it, at aebrain.blogspot.com/2009/10/from-dr-oz-website-when-sexes-collide.html

Here’s what I wrote:
*It’s a program showing the ignorance of one non-specialist medic that so often leads to surgery that blights lives. When the Intersexed woman in the audience speaks, just look at the expressions of discomfort in those around her.

And then listen to what the Mom of an IS child has to say at the end.

I think my hormones are out of balance at the moment, because I’m crying now as I type this. But then again, maybe not. *

Hatred I can handle. Also bigotry, scorn, derision… arrogant and ignorant people pontificating about things they known nothing about, telling me who and what I am and what I should do as their ideology trumps my experience…and often disagreeing with each other but never considering my views on the matter…that’s water off a duck’s back. It doesn’t bother me in the slightest, it’s just the way things are, and worse things happen at sea. A cross so light I can’t even feel it, if you can call it a cross at all. I don’t consider it to be one.

But to be treated as if we were Human, with compassion, that I don’t know how to handle. I just dissolve into helpless tears.

It’s the Transgendered Day of Remembrance soon. The one day of the year where we remember our dead, those slain by bullet, or knife, or sledgehammer, or fire, just for being who they were. We remember our own, in quiet ceremonies in parks and gardens, hidden away, as no-one else does. Few even know of this day’s existence. We know, and that’s enough.

I’ve been invited to read out the names and the ages once more, as I did last year. Please God, no children this year, please. I don’t think we have any so far, but the year isn’t over yet. If you believe in prayer, please pray for that. And that the list will grow ever shorter, till one day we can be silent, and this custom be rendered obsolete.

Hugs and Blessings
Zoe

 

[Ryckie]

This is to Everyone listening!
How do we get to this? How do we think treating ANYONE with disrespect and hatred is the right way?! My prayer is “Forgive me Lord for any time I did so”. I apologize Zoe and anyone else that may have suffered from the harsh words or actions of all the self righteousness and ‘religious’ people that don’t walk the Christian walk.
Please people, pray before you speak. Pray before you act! Jesus said “can you drink of my cup”. The people that are being attacked are drinking, are you?
Ryckie

 

[aspawloski4th]

This is to Everyone listening!
How do we get to this? How do we think treating ANYONE with disrespect and hatred is the right way?! My prayer is “Forgive me Lord for any time I did so”. I apologize Zoe and anyone else that may have suffered from the harsh words or actions of all the self righteousness and ‘religious’ people that don’t walk the Christian walk.
Please people, pray before you speak. Pray before you act! Jesus said “can you drink of my cup”. The people that are being attacked are drinking, are you?
Ryckie

I wonder what others are thinking now that have read the posts on this thread. It seems to me many here don’t care. Or are blowing us off.

 

[hyflyer64]

This is to Everyone listening!
How do we get to this? How do we think treating ANYONE with disrespect and hatred is the right way?! My prayer is “Forgive me Lord for any time I did so”. I apologize Zoe and anyone else that may have suffered from the harsh words or actions of all the self righteousness and ‘religious’ people that don’t walk the Christian walk.
Please people, pray before you speak. Pray before you act! Jesus said “can you drink of my cup”. The people that are being attacked are drinking, are you?
Ryckie

Zoe’s condition is very, very unique. As is that of all “physically” IS people and it is, at least in my mind, easier for people to be compassionate with a “physical” abnormality.
However, for those of us who only have IS brains, compassion is difficult at best to find.
People just can’t get a grasp on why we would want to remove “perfectly good”, functioning organs!!??
Add in the characters that get their kicks playing at being the opposite gender and demand that thier behavior be lagitamized under the “Transgender” umbrella of the LGBT groups and compassion goes out the window.
I’m afraid Zoe, that the “list” will continue to grow and legitimate TS children will continue to be victims as long as we continue to allow ourselves to be labeled as TG.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Zoe’s condition is very, very unique. As is that of all “physically” IS people and it is, at least in my mind, easier for people to be compassionate with a “physical” abnormality.
However, for those of us who only have IS brains, compassion is difficult at best to find.
People just can’t get a grasp on why we would want to remove “perfectly good”, functioning organs!!??
Add in the characters that get their kicks playing at being the opposite gender and demand that thier behavior be lagitamized under the “Transgender” umbrella of the LGBT groups and compassion goes out the window.
I’m afraid Zoe, that the “list” will continue to grow and legitimate TS children will continue to be victims as long as we continue to allow ourselves to be labeled as TG.

TS or TG I think the list will grow. Joe sixpack can’t comprehend the idea of the brain being one way and the body being opposite. I heard the excuse many times over the years, that being around my mom too much made me that way. Funny thing , in the early gradeschool years and before I was around dad plenty. So that common theory is blown away in reality but ecnored by Mr Simpleton. The root of the problem is, that humans are complicated beings, but most humans want everything simple. Joe sixpack wouldn’t know the difference between Tg and TS if it hit him in the fanny.

 

[4elise]

If anything I said contributed to the downwardness of this thread I am sorry. People like angeborn tick me off to no end. While my self I don’t have a complete total understanding of what she is going through. I do trust what she is saying and take her at face value. I do hope the early part of this thread was of help to her. My answers were an attempt to get byond the mere physical, something angeborn seems totally obsessed with. Remember we are not a body with a soul, we are a soul with a body.

So well said!

 

[aspawloski4th]

So well said!

Thankyou.

 

[Liraco]

But to be treated as if we were Human, with compassion, that I don’t know how to handle. I just dissolve into helpless tears.

It’s the Transgendered Day of Remembrance soon. The one day of the year where we remember our dead, those slain by bullet, or knife, or sledgehammer, or fire, just for being who they were. We remember our own, in quiet ceremonies in parks and gardens, hidden away, as no-one else does. Few even know of this day’s existence. We know, and that’s enough.

Interesting to see someone in the media call a 6-week baby a baby instead of dehumanizing it.

Whatever the issues may be with these or any conditions we don’t fully comprehend, we must all remember (especially Catholics) the fact that all human life has dignity. That’s precisely why Catholics fight so much against abortion! Even if what someone does is wrong, they are still a person, but many still see those that are different as a “non-human” so it’s ok to treat them different. We’re supposed to remember to “love the sinner not the sin”, but many seem to forget love completely.

When is this remembrance day, if I may ask?

God bless you, Zoe.

---

@4elise: just to clarify, it’s confusing to see that kind of separation. We’re both body AND soul, both equally important. That is our nature, which is why death is unnatural because it separates our body from our soul and we’re incomplete. We’re not pure spirit. That’s why there’s the need for the resurrection, to make us whole again. The matter of gender will become irrelevant I assume (because there’ll be no more marriage and no more need for procreation).

This issue is an unusual cross, but that’s why these forums exist, to help people like me know about this and extend my prayers to you.