What is the Church's position on the Intersexed and Transsexed?

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When is this remembrance day, if I may ask?
TG Remembrance Day is observed on the 20th of November.

– I’m glad I found this thread. I’m a 20 year-old FTM (female-to-male) transsexual. I have been on testosterone therapy for nearly a year, and am nearing my chest reconstruction surgery. As my physical changes have come very quickly and dramatically, and I now blend comfortably into society, I no longer feel the overwhelming anger that drove me from Catholicism at a young age. I’m trying to go back to the Church.

I am not intersexed, I was born with functioning female components which are now shut down due to my hormone therapy, soon to be removed to avoid them getting cancerous.

My parents are practising Catholics, and quite proud that they now have four athletic, successful sons.
 
Oddly enough… I don’t see my own situation as a cross at all. Here’s what I wrote on a support forum:
Actually… I think I’ve blown the Good Karma for 10,000 lifetimes on this one.
Seriously.
It hasn’t been happy - until the last few years, I didn’t know the meaning of the word. It certainly hasn’t been easy. But I’ve been given so much. The company of some of the most extraordinary people on the planet. A child, despite all the odds. Transition.
It will take me a long time to pay this one off. I’ve maxed my Karmic Credit Card.
I’m still getting used to the concept of having what approximates a “normal life”. Things no longer feel un-natural, perverse, and endlessly horrid.

There are many more deserving than myself whose lives were cut short at a tragically early age. There are many more deserving than myself who have had thing far tougher than I can rightly comprehend - like an Intersexed woman I know who has stigmata. Her parents nailed her to a door by the palms when company came, so the “freak” wouldn’t disturb them.

When you’ve seen the wounds of someone who was regularly literally crucified… when she matter-of-factly says that it’s no big deal now, she healed, and that others have had it worse… and you know that they genuinely have… and you’re both trying to help the damaged ones, the emotionally maimed, because you are privileged, fortunate compared with them and the Universe would be imbalanced if you didn’t… then anyone, anyone at all, believer or no, will go down on their knees in prayers of thanks for blessings innumerable.

I just wonder why me? I’ve done nothing to deserve this bittersweet gift. I don’t even have Faith.Sure I try to follow Matthew 22:39-40, but 35-38, not so much. I’m Arrogant and Prideful enough to think that I’m not worthy of it, to put my own judgement above that of a God I don’t believe in.

SIGH

May the blessings you gave me be returned manyfold, to you and those you love,
Zoe
 
TG Remembrance Day is observed on the 20th of November.

– I’m glad I found this thread. I’m a 20 year-old FTM (female-to-male) transsexual. I have been on testosterone therapy for nearly a year, and am nearing my chest reconstruction surgery. As my physical changes have come very quickly and dramatically, and I now blend comfortably into society, I no longer feel the overwhelming anger that drove me from Catholicism at a young age. I’m trying to go back to the Church.

I am not intersexed, I was born with functioning female components which are now shut down due to my hormone therapy, soon to be removed to avoid them getting cancerous.

My parents are practising Catholics, and quite proud that they now have four athletic, successful sons.
I went to a local Tg day of remeberence candlelight vigil this last wednsday. People murdered simply for who they are, and no local media coverage of the event. I guess “though shall not murder” only applys to certain people.
 
Yep. Real cool how people can come to that conclusion. Reeeaaal cool.
And some wonder why as a Catholic I only go to church on Sunday, and otherwise distance myself from other Catholics for the most part. Withhaving a little emotional impairment leftover from childhood scpecial ed days I acan only handle so much.
 
Oddly enough… I don’t see my own situation as a cross at all.
You’ve said it before but this time this immediately came to mind:
*“Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find rest for your selves.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden light.”
*
I’m glad you don’t see it as a burden and that you do what you can to help others. 🙂
I just wonder why me? I’ve done nothing to deserve this bittersweet gift. I don’t even have Faith.
You speak of pride and yet you can admit that you aren’t worthy of those gifts. If you really believe you’re not worthy of these gifts then you’re not entirely prideful, and I also think you’re not entirely faithless (just by the sole fact that you’re still here from time to time, and that you know some scripture).

Catholics remember this every time at mass, before receiving the Eucharist by saying “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed”. Strictly speaking no one is ever worthy, but so long as we are free from grave sin then we receive as He commanded us to “take and eat”. So yes, you’re unworthy just like the rest of us, but at the very least you’re making good use of your gifts. 👍

Perhaps you’re right that it’s some of that pride that keeps you from trusting Him, but I do think you have some faith. True faith is a gift from God. You’ve already had many gifts, perhaps this one is taking longer to unwrap. 😉

Even the atheist who doesn’t believe in Him needs God for every good deed he ever will do. All the good you’ve done and all the good you’ve received is a free, undeserved gift from Him. It’s good to know that despite “no faith”, you’re aware of that by your attitude.

To Zoe, Aspalowski and others:

I understand that because of many people’s bigotry and bad actions that it can be hard to believe in His church, or in Him, but we’re all broken and in need of healing in our own way. That’s why He came, for the sick, not the healthy. That’s why it’s a church of sinners, and it’s those who refuse the medicine who do the most damage. I hope you continue to accept the good medicine little by little. 😃

God bless you and your family.
 
Hi Zoe, I need to ask you a question and feel comfortable that you would be able to give me an answer. When talking to someone that thinks Homosexuality is something someone is born with and the intersexed is the same thing because they are born that way, is there a distinction? What do I say when this is an issue with someone I know? I realize there is a physical difference most of the time, but what if there is not? I thank you for your contributions to this forum and educating all of us that don’t have a clue.👍
I’m still praying for you and your family. God Bless You Greatly, Ryckie
 
When talking to someone that thinks Homosexuality is something someone is born with and the intersexed is the same thing because they are born that way, is there a distinction?
What little science there is shows with certainty that for some people at least, homosexuality is something they’re born with, due to cross-sexed neurology.

The children who show marked cross-gendered (note the difference between sex and gender) behaviour at an early age may not in fact be transsexual. Only 1 in 3 are. But the rest, with almost no exceptions, are homosexual or bisexual as adults. Anti-Gay Therapists have given up on trying to prevent this, nothing worked. They just now try to decrease the odds that they’ll be TS, but appear to have no success there either, they just produce damaged adults from damaged children.

Such people though are a minority within the Gay population. The situation for others is less clear. Instead of being able to say with a great degree of certainty, we can only say the evidence strongly suggests a biological cause in the majority of cases. On the balance of probabilities, yes, in the majority of cases the causation is biological. But we can’t be utterly certain of that, and definitely can’t be certain it’s always biologically caused. It probably isn’t, not in absolutely every case.


image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/06/16/Brai_Scan_460X276.jpg

You can see the differences between Homosexual Men, Homosexual Women, Heterossexual Men, and Heterosexual Women on MRI images. Whether this is causal or not is another matter - though as it’s in the non-plastic area of the brain, it’s very likely not caused by behaviour. Rather than causing homosexual orientation though, these differences may be purely symptomatic of them. Experimentation on animals shows that homosexuality can be reliably induced by hormonal manipulation during foetal development. It appears that although some genetic sequences may make a foetus more susceptible to minor hormonal anomalies - so increasing the odds - there is no “gay gene” as such. It’s a matter of hormonal environment in the womb, congenital yes, genetic, no.

Now all this is entirely separate from the moral and theological concept of homosexual behaviour being sinful. My interpretation of scripture says that it is. But then, my interpretation of scripture (Timothy etc) also says that female teachers or managers should be forbidden too, and thus that I should not be allowed to post here or anywhere else, but should be silent. Oh yes, and the Earth is flat too, scripturally. Those are just some of the reasons why I don’t consider scripture inerrant.

For far more detail, please see Dr Veronica Drantz’ extensive work on neuroanatomy. She has some excellent presentations on the subject of sexual orientation in the human brain, including some testable hypotheses.

Some people look upon the Intersexed as being inherently Homosexual regardless of who they’re attracted to (even if they’re attracted to no-one), and Homosexual desire as being inherently sinful (even if behaviour is celibate), thus condemning those born with particular body configurations as not just sinful but evil by definition. This is quite in accordance with Calvinist and other doctrines of pre-destination. It’s not in accordance with Church teaching though.

Hope this helps - and thanks so much for your prayers. May any blessings you send to others, no matter who, be returned a thousandfold.

Zoe

p.s. The evidence is also that a substantial number of people who say they are either hetero- or homo- sexual are actually bi-sexual. Those “heterosexual” people who think that homosexuality is a choice are by and large bisexual. For them it is, so they think it is for everyone. Those “ex-Gay” who are sexually active are also bisexual rather than hetero, as their sexual attractions don’t change, they just suppress them in order to live a life less sinful.

p.p.s I’m probably bisexual myself, even though I consider myself straight. It’s just that I have a female body, and my upbringing and instincts tell me that homosexuality is wrong. I’m homophobic. I just don’t consider my irrational feelings a justification for denying others human rights. A psychotherapist could probably allow me to feel attraction to other women - but I’d rather stay as I am, thanks!
 
Hi Zoe, I do thank you for your reply. It may take a few times of reading it to absorb some of it. But I do want to understand this. It is very interesting and confusing at the same time.
I wrote another reply and tried to send it but somehow it seems to have gotten lost.

As far as the morality and what the church teaches - - - - -
What I have studied about how the Church views homosexuality and what the Church teaches is to love the Sinner not the sin. Contrary to what society tells us in every ad and almost every movie and tv show, we don’t have to act on sexual urges. A homosexual that stays celibate is not sinning just because he feels that he/she is homosexual. We don’t choose how we feel just how we act upon it.

God is a family, Father, Son, Holy Spirit all by Himself. He created us to be part of His family. Sex is a bonding Grace. When we allow ourselves to bond without that Grace we can cause great mental and spiritual anguish. Marriage is a covenant which is not just a contract, but a giving of oneself to another. When we give ourselves in the bonding Grace of sex in marriage we have unity with the family of God and human family. Sex for self satisfaction only is an empty shell. God never tells us not to do something to punish us but to enlighten us and help us grow in His soothing Grace. Thank God there is forgiveness when we truly repent! And we all are in need of repentance in one way or another.

Thank you once again Zoe, you might enjoy a book by Dr. Margaret Nutting Ralph called “Did God Really Say That?” She teaches scripture and it isn’t quite as scary or condeming as we think sometimes. 😉 Many Blessings, Ryckie
 
Interesting to know someone who backs up that there’s no “gay gene” to speak of but I didn’t know it could be congenital. Fascinating stuff.

As I heard in an interesting talk by Peter Kreeft, even if people are born confused about who they are in terms of sex (male or female) they will ultimately be restored in Heaven to what they were originally intended to be. Sex is what you are (male/female), it shouldn’t be degraded to what you do (homo/bi/heterosexual).
my interpretation of scripture (Timothy etc) also says that female teachers or managers should be forbidden too, and thus that I should not be allowed to post here or anywhere else, but should be silent. Oh yes, and the Earth is flat too, scripturally. Those are just some of the reasons why I don’t consider scripture inerrant.
On the subject of the “flat earth” or that “women shouldn’t teach”, I wouldn’t judge inerrancy based on fallible personal interpretation. I would certainly hope you know we don’t hold that a woman shouldn’t be allowed to post here (or even to be a teacher). It’s all about context.

If you have a question about what the Church really says on those (or other) things then I’d be glad to take a stab at it. 🙂

Thanks for the info.

I’ll continue praying for you and your family. God bless you.
 
Mexican Cardinal Javier Barragan, a former Vatican official who recently retired, made his comments yesterday.
Referring to one of St Paul’s epistles, he said: ‘Trans- and homosexuals will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, it’s not me who says it but St. Paul.’
“[T]rans e omosessuali non entreranno mai nel Regno dei Cieli, e non lo dico io, ma San Paolo.”
Barragan’s comments were posted on conservative Catholic website Pontifex.Roma.it.
 
Thank you for posting that, Zoe. Such a shame his words could not have been better chosen. I’m also guessing he is of the mindset that transexuals are merely people who mutilate their bodies to change their appearance on a whim (like getting a facelift or something I suppose).

I’d like to know where Paul says that about transexuals though. I wonder if he was referring to Romans 1. It mentions homosexual acts but nothing about transexuals, he’s likely very confused on what the term means. Someone with same sex attraction isn’t automatically sentenced to damnation, it’s giving into it that’s sinful just like anyone who gives into impure thoughts or has sex outside of marriage is committing grave sin.

Romans 1:22-28
While claiming to be wise, they became fools
and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes.
Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies.
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural,
and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity.
And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper.


I only see the obvious being stated here though: those who leave God (the Truth) for lies give into evil.

One last thing Zoe, not sure if you caught it but he WAS very clear on one thing: “it doesn’t justify any kind of discrimination. Only God has the right to judge. …we all as people have the same rights.” It’s true he doesn’t distinguish the act form the person with SSA (he merely says homosexuality is a sin).
 
I’d like to know where Paul says that about transexuals though. I wonder if he was referring to Romans 1.
His Eminence’s words are from I Corinthians 6:9-10 , the King James Version.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
malakoi (μαλακοι)is literally “soft”. In the New International Version it’s translated as “male prostitutes”, in the New American Standard and KJV as “effeminate”. In all cases it’s distinct from homosexuals arsenokoites (αρσενοκοιται).

The thinking seems to be that “effeminate” means “transvestite”, and thus anyone transsexual, intersexed etc. Any male who crosses the line of properly segregated gendered behaviour, and hence any female too.

Today’s New International Version reads:
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor practicing homosexuals
10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
That’s an awful lot of meaning to be wrung out of the word for “soft”, that is used in other parts of the bible as a simple adjective, as in “soft raiment” etc.
 
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Zoe_Brain:
I have to wonder if the good Cardinal ever made a similar statement regarding the numerous pedophile priests within the Catholic church??:confused:
 
I haven’t been on here in some time but just found out that Zoe Brain and aspawloski4th have been banned for “promoting” transgender issues!! What the **^%!!?"?"
Is there someone out there that can shed light on this??
Zoe has been a font of un-biased information on this subject. Has someone lost their senses or has someone “in power” used their bigoted influence to gag them??
I look at the posts on here from non-catholics and the things they have to say that are derogatory about the Catholic faith, and the’re not banned. So what gives??

A Catholic in good standing, or at least I think I am until the anti-TG police discover me.
Then again, I left the TG,TS thing on the operating table.

Rachel
 
I haven’t been on here in some time but just found out that Zoe Brain and aspawloski4th have been banned for “promoting” transgender issues!! What the **^%!!?"?"
erm… who told you that? In the past four years, I’ve never seen a CAF moderator ever list a reason for banning anyone. I think you have been told speculation which was dressed up as fact.

Instead of relying on gossip, it would be wise to PM the moderator of this forum and ask him. I believe the moderator for Social Justice is Eric Hilbert.
forums.catholic-questions.org/member.php?u=165969

He may choose not to divulge the reason. But it is against forum rules to publicly question a moderator’s decision. So its best that you ask him privately, via PM.
 
hi rachel nice to see you back
I haven’t been on here in some time but just found out that Zoe Brain and aspawloski4th have been banned for “promoting” transgender issues!! What the **^%!!?"?"

my thoughts exactly when i noticed this the other day
Is there someone out there that can shed light on this??
oh well mr ratzinger will be glad a couple of vermin have been silenced here and those bishops will be so happy that this blatant descrimination against an IS person and a TS person has occurred.
 
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