Ah, I haven’t seen a Father Greeley bashing in a little while.
Paul VI noted the “auto-demolition”… JPII the “silent apostasy” of Europe…and you can’t see there is a Crisis?
I agree, the crisis in the Church began way before VII. I would say it really began with the French Revolution when the seeds of Modernism were firmly planted. VII, as John XXIII said, opened the windows of the Church to the world, and unfortunately the smoke of Satan entered.
Yes, the effects listed in this thread, such as lack of vocations and decline in Mass attendance, are symptoms of the Crisis, they are the effects of the Crisis, they are not the cause of the Crisis.
Modern Secular Materialism and the selfishness it engenders has had far more of an effect across all of society - all cultures, all religions…nearly every corner of the world has suffered. This effect was felt in the Church in the 30’s, 40’s and 50’s as priests received terrible formation in the seminary and catechesis became poorer and poorer. By the time Vatican II began, things were sliding fast. And by the time the new liturgy was promulgated we already had thousands of very flawed men in the priesthood. These pre-Vatican II educated men then became the leaders of spineless abusive modern liturgy.
The Church does not promulgate “abusive liturgy”. This is contrary to the infallibility of the Church in issuing Her disciplines.
Really, and you went through seminary formation in the 50’s? And that’s why the seminaries were full and the Catholic Church was experiencing what has been called a “golden age” up until Vatican II?
Can we justly assume that falling Mass attendance is due to Vatican II?
What about the repeal of “Blue Laws” in many states, which forced some to work on Sundays, and made Sundays available for numerous other activities. Love this one. The blue laws were set in stone till the worship of God on Sunday became optional to many Christians and Catholics. If the churches had stood firm in their beliefs that Sunday was to be kept Holy then the laws would never have been changed. IMHO
Not saying that it’s RIGHT to miss Mass for these reasons, just acknowledging that those reasons exist. see above
The confession/communion relationship has been brought up in other threads. At one point in time, the Church was so tough on the confession/communinon “worthiness” issue, that participating communicants fell off to the point that the Church had to push the “Once a year at Easter” thing. Not sure you can blame that on Vatican II. The confessional was open prior to every Mass and if I remember correctly the lines were long and some were turned away because of the Mass or had to attend the next Mass. Now it is 1 hour per week and sometimes my family is the only one there. LOL a few weeks ago it was just the two families on our rural road.
I see the crisis as more of a secular issue…forces outside the church (TV, media, two-income homes so we can buy cool toys) drawing our attention away from fervent practice of our faith, than anything caused or created by Vatican II. Where is the teaching that reminds people that God is first and stuff is last with everything else in the middle?
No, I judge them by their fruit. Remember all the really really wacked out pastors in the late 70’s and early 80’s? The ones who draped felt everywhere and put peace signs on the altar? The ones who “performed” the Mass? Those guys all went to the seminary in the late 50’s. So, what happened in their formation that made them think such actions were A-OK? Why did 67% of the priests who were accused of sexually abusing minors graduate from the seminary BEFORE 1969? The fruits of the seminaries from that time indicate that something was very rotten in the formation and discernment process.
I think we can safely assume that almost nowhere in their seminary formation in the 40’s or 50’s were young men taught, or given examples of, using felt banners or many of the modern innovations prevalent today.
Ever hear of Bella Dodd? Yes another one of those crazy traditional myths that has been proven true. Many of the “crazy priests” were put into the seminary by Bella Dodd and others like her.
I see the increase in the number of marriage “annulments” as a real crisis.
Well, if that was true that would seem to support my position that something was rotten in the seminaries before Vatican II. If the seminaries couldn’t pick up on the fact that there were Communist operatives becoming ordained, then they obviously were not being rigorous enough in their screening of potential priests.
Except that if there really were communist operatives infiltrating seminaries, they probably would train to appear as some of the most pious and best candidates during the screening process. In fact, if I remember correctly, the infiltrators were instructed to appear to be pious and well behaved so as not to draw attention to themselves during seminary training.
I have read Andrew Greeley’s books. Whatever his motives for joining the priesthood,they had nothing to do with devoutness or the desire to preach the gospel. He is indifferent to papal and ecclesiastical authority and he disagrees with Catholic doctrines. In regard to the Church’s teaching on morals,he is more of a Pelagian than a Catholic. He thinks that the papal encyclical Humanae Vitae was a big mistake,and he thinks that the Church’s emphasis on social justice is “cheap grace”,and a cover for what he thinks is the Church’s inadequacy in dealing with sexual issues. In one of his books,he claimed that Cardinal Bernadine made disparaging remarks to him about Humanae Vitae. Greeley is interested in Catholicism for the symbolism and for the local communities,rather than for Catholicism’s truth. He is not concerned about truth.
Uhh…not quite, holdencaulfield. The crisis is more than just a US crisis. And, “millions of times?”…a bit of an exageration, don’t you think? In fact, the Church in the US is actually more vibrant than in Europe; now, there’s a crisis! Church attendance in W Europe, the cradle of Christianity, is so low, that only about 5% of Catholics in France, e.g., attend Mass. And France is not atypical. So what is the crisis?
Hi Anthony,
As was reported in the article the communists" wanted to undermine the Church by recruiting men into the priesthood who had no vocations and who would cause havoc by confusion and bad example". That is exactly what happened.
