What is the "Crisis"?

[peary]

Conservative posted:

*…allowing Sunday Mass obligation on Saturday evening. *

**It’s a vigil Liturgy. Are you also saying that we didn’t have vigil Masses prior to Vatican II?? A Vigil Mass has always fulfilled the next day obligation.

The crisis in our Church? There’s no reverence/prayer. How many healthy people don’t genuflect when passing the Blessed Sacrament; or proper attire for Mass; how after Mass some Churches become meeting halls of conversation instead of remembering it’s a house of prayer - God’s House (Mass is over but God is still in the Tabernacle); there’s few - if any - novenas (remember them?) or weekly recitation of the Rosary and sadly a handful attendees there?

**All of this is slowly changing. **

*The crisis in our Church? There’s no solid enforcement of The Ten Commandments & of our Faith. *

How do you intend to enforce personal morality??

Despite bingo games, roulette wheels (at fairs, etc.), bake sales, dinners, etc., the Churches and schools are struggling - closing - due to lack of funds.

Changing demographics, mostly.

Is that the only way the Church can bring us in? Modernism - it was spoken about by Popes. We must adapt to the times but we musn’t compromise our religion to it - and sadly that’s what we do everyday - myself included. We’ve put God on a backburner - to TV, activities, today’s lifestyle - whatever. I can’t help but wonder, if returning to a more prayerful time would be so much more pleasing to God that we’d see the message behind the “loaves and the fishes”…From a few, would come many - if we’d only come to Him in prayer. As we’re seeing, I don’t think we needed changes - we needed sanctity or at least a desire for it. I don’t see it in our times.

It’s there, but not the way we remember it.

 

[markadm]

Conservative posted:

*…allowing Sunday Mass obligation on Saturday evening. *

**It’s a *vigil ***Liturgy. Are you also saying that we didn’t have vigil Masses prior to Vatican II?? A Vigil Mass has always fulfilled the next day obligation.

I wasn’t born yet to know any better, but I have heard they were significantly rarer; is this the case?

 

[MaryJohnZ]

I wasn’t born yet to know any better, but I have heard they were significantly rarer; is this the case?

Vigil masses were brought in after Vatican II sometime, they didn’t have them when I was growing up.

We do live in the time of the Great Apostasy…our faith has been securlaized and the call to holiness which was a part of Vatican II is reformulated to humanistic terms. I agree…prayer, devotion, practicing monthly confession ( rermeber when it was normal to go once a month!!!)

Mary Protectress of Our Faith Please pray for Us!

But there are hard core Catholics and there is hope…
Trouble is they are often ostracized and made to feel as if they are extreme. But Jesus knew this would come and He will come to save us again.Glory to God! Pray for the promised illumination of souls, the great gift of Mary’s Heart, mercy for all mankind because there is such great darkness around us and hardly anyone knows what is right and wrong anymore.

Mary

 

[MaryJohnZ]

Nothing wrong with the Inquisition, except for the extremes. We ought to have another. By that I mean, those of questionable orthodoxy should be examined, and, should they continue in heresy, formally excommunicated.

We do have an inquisition…only this time it is a SECULAR inquisition…

If you ever tried to find a public school board, (especially trying to get Planned Parenthood out of a school) you know what I mean.
School Boards are like Inquisition Boards these days.

And to a certain extent there is persecution within some Parishes
toward Orthodox Catholics, so you end up quiet, in the pew, praying and hoping you won’t get kicked out.

Actually I have been kicked off one church property because I said people should kneel at the consecration and the Priest was telling everyone to stand through it. I am sure others have similiar stories… I wasn’t being threatening or anything, I was just showing a paper clipping about the norm of kneeling during the consecration…and it was a long time ago. I learned to keep quiet though. Perhaps I should have written the Bishop, but I have done that and it doesn’t seem to make any difference about anything.I think the different ways more conservative religious people are persecuted today shows that persecution has been refined and is so subtle that it can be hard to see.
Gid Bless,
Mary

 

[markadm]

We do live in the time of the Great Apostasy…our faith has been securlaized and the call to holiness which was a part of Vatican II is reformulated to humanistic terms. I agree…prayer, devotion, practicing monthly confession ( rermeber when it was normal to go once a month!!!)

Hey, even in the last year it seems to be dwindling. I go every two weeks, so that maybe there’s a chance of gaining indulgence for the Holy Souls in Purgatory… but sometimes I’m the only one there!! And it’s not as if the congregation is small - the Church is packed, at both Masses!

Agree - we need lots and lots of prayers!

 

[stmaria]

Originally Posted by peary
Conservative posted:

…allowing Sunday Mass obligation on Saturday evening.

It’s a vigil Liturgy. Are you also saying that we didn’t have vigil Masses prior to Vatican II?? A Vigil Mass has always fulfilled the next day obligation.

I wasn’t born yet to know any better, but I have heard they were significantly rarer; is this the case?

I am 57 years old and I don’t recall a vigil mass fullfilling the Holy Day Obligation. It may have happenned but I don’t recall. But, peary, that is not the point. Having a Saturday evening mass to fullfill your Sunday obligation did not start until 1967 when pope Paul stated in *Eucharisticum Mysterium *1967
“The purpose of this concession is in fact to enable the Christians of today to celebrate more easily the day of the resurrection of the Lord.”

I used to take advantage of celebrating “more easily” the sacrifice of the Mass. Then I woke up and realize I was dong it not for God but for my own selfish reasons. Even Pope John Paul and Pope Benedict have said that Sunday not Saturday is the day of the Lord. Just another poor disciplinary decision by Pope Paul VI

 

[Brother_John]

I used to take advantage of celebrating “more easily” the sacrifice of the Mass. Then I woke up and realize I was dong it not for God but for my own selfish reasons. Even Pope John Paul and Pope Benedict have said that Sunday not Saturday is the day of the Lord. Just another poor disciplinary decision by Pope Paul VI

Interesting, because the LOTH contains a Saturday evening vigil prayer. We also have the Easter Vigil, which I believe has been around since before Vatican II.

On a more personal note, Saturday evening Mass can be a life-saver for some, like me. During the summer months, I go to 7:30 pm Mass in a nearby town when I can. It finishes off a long summer Saturday of fixing air conditioners.

Sunday morning invariably starts around 7am, with some kind-hearted soul demanding that I come immediately to fix their air conditioner, since “they are trying to get ready for Church”…

God works in mysterious ways

 

[latinmasslover]

I wasn’t born yet to know any better, but I have heard they were significantly rarer; is this the case?

I think it was Pope Pius XII who first permitted vigin Masses, but only for those who could not, for **serious **reasons, make it Sunday. This has been severely abused, just another example of the exception being twisted into the norm.

 

[peary]

origianlly posted by MaryJohnZ:
Vigil masses were brought in after Vatican II sometime, they didn’t have them when I was growing up.

As I grew up in the 1950s, I distinctly remembered an Easter Vigil Mass celebrated the evening before Pasch Sunday. This was in Latin. And after some research I found that the Vigil was introduced in November, 1950. The Christmas vigil followed a few years later. So, in my experience, the vigil Mass was offered at those times. However, holyday vigils were discontinued in 1955, but some were later re-instated during the reign of John Paul II.

 

[MaryJohnZ]

origianlly posted by MaryJohnZ:
Vigil masses were brought in after Vatican II sometime, they didn’t have them when I was growing up.

As I grew up in the 1950s, I distinctly remembered an Easter Vigil Mass celebrated the evening before Pasch Sunday. This was in Latin. And after some research I found that the Vigil was introduced in November, 1950. The Christmas vigil followed a few years later. So, in my experience, the vigil Mass was offered at those times. However, holyday vigils were discontinued in 1955, but some were later re-instated during the reign of John Paul II.

The vigil mass issue doesn’t bother me that much as there are so many people ( nurses aides for example) that may need to do a mass the Saturday before Sunday. I can see that if you were doing this just so you could sleep in late or for an unnecessary reason then maybe that is a misuse of the Vigil mass. when I was trying to do the five first Saturdays I had to use vigil masses for Sunday because the Saturday masses have disappeared now…so Mary’s day of the week is not honored. That I find disheartening.

Mary

 

[Conservative]

So many interesting replies - I just couldn’t “multiple-quote” them all. So, I’ll go by memory on particular topics:

1. **Prior the the Sunday obligation being permitted on Saturday ** - to my recollection - the only vigils that met holy day obligations were Easter and Christmas. Christmas was Midnight Mass, while Easter Vigil was permitted to be at 9:00 p.m. (I believe) on Holy Saturday.
2. **I agree that there are a significant number of necessary jobs **(i.e. doctors, nurses, etc.) where permission for a Saturday vigil Mass might be an option - *but then why not a Sunday EVENING Mass instead? * I know Churches that do or did have that. Aside from necessary jobs, it seems people just don’t want to reserve an hour for God - on the Sabbath.
3. As to being “ostracized” for being Catholics? Absolutely! There are so many ways/examples, I can’t list them. But perhaps three best ones are (a) for having a moral lifestyle before marriage, we’re considered freaks; (b) when dressing modestly, we’re questioned, criticized and BTW not offered a choice when shopping - in a “pro-choice” country?; and (c) perhaps losing a job if we refuse to take a Sunday shift where there are blue laws - that’s not just ostracizing, that’s discrimination against a religion whose laws forbid work on Sunday. In a perfect world, the worker would be given an option to work a different day…
   which begs me to address BrotherJohn on this…

In one of your earlier posts, you cited Blue Laws as part of the crisis in the Church. Please expand on that since the States, not the Church, removed Blue Laws. I don’t believe we’ve been given dispensation from the Third Commandment unless in medical / necessary professions.

 

[Brother_John]

which begs me to address BrotherJohn on this…

In one of your earlier posts, you cited Blue Laws as part of the crisis in the Church. Please expand on that since the States, not the Church, removed Blue Laws. I don’t believe we’ve been given dispensation from the Third Commandment unless in medical / necessary professions.

In context, what I was referring to, is the fact that the repeal of Blue Laws not only required some people to work to maintain their employment, but Sundays were now open to all manner of activity that was not previously available…thus leading to the erosion of the observance of the Sabbath.

 

[KathleenElsie]

So many interesting replies - I just couldn’t “multiple-quote” them all. So, I’ll go by memory on particular topics:

1. **Prior the the Sunday obligation being permitted on Saturday **- to my recollection - the only vigils that met holy day obligations were Easter and Christmas. Christmas was Midnight Mass, while Easter Vigil was permitted to be at 9:00 p.m. (I believe) on Holy Saturday.
2. **I agree that there are a significant number of necessary jobs **(i.e. doctors, nurses, etc.) where permission for a Saturday vigil Mass might be an option - *but then why not a Sunday EVENING Mass instead? *I know Churches that do or did have that. Aside from necessary jobs, it seems people just don’t want to reserve an hour for God - on the Sabbath.
3. As to being “ostracized” for being Catholics? Absolutely! There are so many ways/examples, I can’t list them. But perhaps three best ones are (a) for having a moral lifestyle before marriage, we’re considered freaks; (b) when dressing modestly, we’re questioned, criticized and BTW not offered a choice when shopping - in a “pro-choice” country?; and (c) perhaps losing a job if we refuse to take a Sunday shift where there are blue laws - that’s not just ostracizing, that’s discrimination against a religion whose laws forbid work on Sunday. In a perfect world, the worker would be given an option to work a different day…
   which begs me to address BrotherJohn on this…

In one of your earlier posts, you cited Blue Laws as part of the crisis in the Church. Please expand on that since the States, not the Church, removed Blue Laws. I don’t believe we’ve been given dispensation from the Third Commandment unless in medical / necessary professions.

I quit my job over the Sunday argument. That was in Aug. and they called me in Dec. and asked me to come back. Well needless to say Sunday is no longer an issue . Oh and we don’t shop on Sunday. That is what the six other days are for.

 

[stmaria]

Interesting, because the LOTH contains a Saturday evening vigil prayer. We also have the Easter Vigil, which I believe has been around since before Vatican II.

On a more personal note, Saturday evening Mass can be a life-saver for some, like me. During the summer months, I go to 7:30 pm Mass in a nearby town when I can. It finishes off a long summer Saturday of fixing air conditioners.

Sunday morning invariably starts around 7am, with some kind-hearted soul demanding that I come immediately to fix their air conditioner, since “they are trying to get ready for Church”…

So how do you keep holy the day of the Lord if you are fixing air conditoners? You would be blessed if you told your customers that you don’t work on Sunday because you need to go to Mass.
It sure seems to be working for Chick-fila. They close on Sundays and their business has never been better.
SACRAMENTUM CARITATIS
BENEDICT XVI
Living the Sunday obligation
73. Conscious of this new vital principle which the Eucharist imparts to the Christian, the Synod Fathers reaffirmed the importance of the Sunday obligation for all the faithful, viewing it as a wellspring of authentic freedom enabling them to live each day in accordance with what they celebrated on “the Lord’s Day.” The life of faith is endangered when we lose the desire to share in the celebration of the Eucharist and its commemoration of the paschal victory. Participating in the Sunday liturgical assembly with all our brothers and sisters, with whom we form one body in Jesus Christ, is demanded by our Christian conscience and at the same time it forms that conscience. To lose a sense of Sunday as the Lord’s Day, a day to be sanctified, is symptomatic of the loss of an authentic sense of Christian freedom, the freedom of the children of God. (206) Here some observations made by my venerable predecessor John Paul II in his Apostolic Letter Dies Domini (207) continue to have great value. Speaking of the various dimensions of the Christian celebration of Sunday, he said that it is Dies Domini with regard to the work of creation, Dies Christi as the day of the new creation and the Risen Lord’s gift of the Holy Spirit, Dies Ecclesiae as the day on which the Christian community gathers for the celebration, and Dies hominis as the day of joy, rest and fraternal charity.
Sunday thus appears as the primordial holy day, when all believers, wherever they are found, can become heralds and guardians of the true meaning of time. It gives rise to the Christian meaning of life and a new way of experiencing time, relationships, work, life and death. On the Lord’s Day, then, it is fitting that Church groups should organize, around Sunday Mass, the activities of the Christian community: social gatherings, programmes for the faith formation of children, young people and adults, pilgrimages, charitable works, and different moments of prayer. For the sake of these important values – while recognizing that Saturday evening, beginning with First Vespers, is already a part of Sunday and a time when the Sunday obligation can be fulfilled – we need to remember that it is Sunday itself that is meant to be kept holy, lest it end up as a day “empty of God.”

 

[Conservative]

I quit my job over the Sunday argument. That was in Aug. and they called me in Dec. and asked me to come back. Well needless to say Sunday is no longer an issue . Oh and we don’t shop on Sunday. That is what the six other days are for.

Whew ! And here I thought I was one of the last Catholics. I’ve had no intention of even interviewing for any job that might require working Sundays - and I’m the same re shopping on Sundays, too. (No longer feeling like a majority of one )

 

[KathleenElsie]

Whew ! And here I thought I was one of the last Catholics. I’ve had no intention of even interviewing for any job that might require working Sundays - and I’m the same re shopping on Sundays, too. (No longer feeling like a majority of one )

You know things get done, meetings attended, shopping as a necessity and not a recreational activity (lol) is done as necessary and then from Saturday at 4pm till Monday when we go to work and school is God’s time and our family time. Works wonderfully for this family of seven.

 

[MaryJohnZ]

Instead of just talking about Blue Laws and working on Sunday maybe we should just talk about the the first three comandments… all three are being broken more and more.

I was thinking of the message of La Salette, how the Blessed Mother cried and she mentioned sins against those three commandments. I think if we can be conscious of God as being our “begining and our end” and honor Him accordingly in all areas the rest of the comandments tend to fall in place…

Pope Benedict is right in that he has said Relativism has become the new religion and relativism replaces God with the 'self" as the arbitrator of truth. We ( speaking in terms of mankind) have bitten the same apple as Adam and Eve…

The crisis in the Church…too many in the Church have taken the
idea that the ‘individual conscience’ is the ultimate arbitrator of whether something is or isn’t sinful and taught that if you as a person don’t see something as being wrong then it isn’t a sin…
I have heard that from Priests! So no wonder the mass confusion and the ultimate division in the mystical Body of Christ. It is like the DNA patterns have been disrupted…

God Bless MaryJohnZ

 

[Brother_John]

You would be blessed if you told your customers that you don’t work on Sunday because you need to go to Mass.

Because I would lose enough customers to put me out of business, thus hindering my ability to support my family and my Church.

I don’t take new customers on Sunday, but I do respond to existing ones. And more than once, those Sunday morning calls were from my own dear Catholic Church

Smarter and more holy people than I instituted the Vigil Mass, so I’m going to continue to avail myself of that option when needed.

 

[catharina]

Because I would lose enough customers to put me out of business, thus hindering my ability to support my family and my Church.

I don’t take new customers on Sunday, but I do respond to existing ones. And more than once, those Sunday morning calls were from my own dear Catholic Church

Smarter and more holy people than I instituted the Vigil Mass, so I’m going to continue to avail myself of that option when needed.

Very nicely said and I agree with you. I’ve been working with children in crisis for forty years. If I’m needed on Sunday in a hospital or home, I’m there. I’m grateful for the Vigil Masses.

 

[stmaria]

Originally Posted by stmaria
You would be blessed if you told your customers that you don’t work on Sunday because you need to go to Mass

.

=Brother John;3367771]Because I would lose enough customers to put me out of business, thus hindering my ability to support my family and my Church

.

Oh ye of little faith.

Mathew 6:24-34
"You cannot serve God and mammon. 25 Therefore I say to you, be not solicitous for your life, what you shall eat, nor for your body, what you shall put on. Is not the life more than the meat: and the body more than the raiment?

26 Behold the birds of the air, for they neither sow, nor do they reap, nor gather into barns: and your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are not you of much more value than they? 27 And which of you by taking thought, can add to his stature by one cubit? 28 And for raiment why are you solicitous? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they labour not, neither do they spin. 29 But I say to you, that not even Solomon in all his glory was arrayed as one of these. 30 And if the grass of the field, which is today, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, God doth so clothe: how much more you, O ye of little faith?

31 Be not solicitous therefore, saying, What shall we eat: or what shall we drink, or wherewith shall we be clothed? 32 For after all these things do the heathens seek. For your Father knoweth that you have need of all these things. 33 Seek ye therefore first the kingdom of God, and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you. 34 Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof.

I