What is The Cross...without The Christ?

[Gabriel_of_12]

Not sure if the earliest Christians agree with you on that, they did use the Cross as well…

Worse yet, the early Christians, when in the catacombs saying Mass, for fear of their lives, their crucifix, was a human body with the head of an *** (some kind of donkey). This was to indicate the humiliating death, Jesus suffered for all Christians.

 

[Namesake]

It wasn’t the Ressurection that paid for our sins, but His death.

The Cross with Jesus represents The Slaughtered Lamb.

The Sacrifice.

The Victory over sin that He gives us isn’t in His rising, but in His dieing.

Again, what does an empty cross say about the thieves?

Nothing.

It’s not the cross, but The Man on The Cross that makes the difference.

Crosses existed before, after and during Christ, but only “one” had Christ on it is the one that matters.

Victory over sin is correct. But the resurrection is the hope of mankind.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

AMEN!!!, 1 Corinthians 1:23, but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles…

Thought: How are future generations going to understand the price Jesus Christ paid for our salvation, unless they see THE SON OF MAN LIFTED UP, like Jesus states in the following Gospels.

Zechariah 12: 10 I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and petition; and they shall look on him whom they have thrust through, and they shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only son, and they shall grieve over him as one grieves over a first-born.

Galations 2: 19 For through the law I died to the law, 19 that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ;

Numbers 21: 4 7 Then the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned in complaining against the LORD and you. Pray the LORD to take the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people, 8 and the LORD said to Moses, “Make a saraph and mount it on a pole, and if anyone who has been bitten looks at it, he will recover.” 9 Moses accordingly made a bronze serpent and mounted it on a pole, and whenever anyone who had been bitten by a serpent looked at the bronze serpent, he recovered.

John 3: 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life."

Wisdom 16: 6 But as a warning, for a short time they were terrorized, though they had a sign of salvation, to remind them of the precept of your law. 7 For he who turned toward it was saved, not by what he saw, but by you, the savior of all. 8 And by this also you convinced our foes that you are he who delivers from all evil. 12 For indeed, neither herb nor application cured them, but your all-healing word, O LORD! 13 For you have dominion over life and death; you lead down to the gates of the nether world, and lead back.

Revelations 1: 7 Behold, he is coming amid the clouds,** and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him.** All the peoples of the earth will lament him. Yes. Amen. 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” 6 says the Lord God, “the one who is and who was and who is to come, the almighty.”

Revelations 5: 6 Then I saw standing in the midst of the throne and the four living creatures and the elders, **a Lamb that seemed to have been slain. **He had seven horns and seven eyes; these are the (seven) spirits of God sent out into the whole world.

John 12: 32 **And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself." 33 **He said this indicating the kind of death he would die.

John 8: 24… That is why I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins." 28 So Jesus said (to them), **“When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will realize that I AM, **and that I do nothing on my own, but I say only what the Father taught me. 29 The one who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, because I always do what is pleasing to him.”

 

[Namesake]

Namesake;3296482:

AMEN!!!, 1 Corinthians 1:23, but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles…

Thought: How are future generations going to understand the price Jesus Christ paid for our salvation, unless they see THE SON OF MAN LIFTED UP, like Jesus states in the following Gospels.

Zechariah 12: 10 I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and petition; and they shall look on him whom they have thrust through, and they shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only son, and they shall grieve over him as one grieves over a first-born.

Galations 2: 19 For through the law I died to the law, 19 that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ;

Numbers 21: 4 7 Then the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned in complaining against the LORD and you. Pray the LORD to take the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people, 8 and the LORD said to Moses, “Make a saraph and mount it on a pole, and if anyone who has been bitten looks at it, he will recover.” 9 Moses accordingly made a bronze serpent and mounted it on a pole, and whenever anyone who had been bitten by a serpent looked at the bronze serpent, he recovered.

John 3: 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life."

Wisdom 16: 6 But as a warning, for a short time they were terrorized, though they had a sign of salvation, to remind them of the precept of your law. 7 For he who turned toward it was saved, not by what he saw, but by you, the savior of all. 8 And by this also you convinced our foes that you are he who delivers from all evil. 12 For indeed, neither herb nor application cured them, but your all-healing word, O LORD! 13 For you have dominion over life and death; you lead down to the gates of the nether world, and lead back.

Revelations 1: 7 Behold, he is coming amid the clouds,** and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him.**

All the peoples of the earth will lament him. Yes. Amen. 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” 6 says the Lord God, “the one who is and who was and who is to come, the almighty.”

Revelations 5: 6 Then I saw standing in the midst of the throne and the four living creatures and the elders, **a Lamb that seemed to have been slain. **He had seven horns and seven eyes; these are the (seven) spirits of God sent out into the whole world.

John 12: 32 **And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself." 33 **He said this indicating the kind of death he would die.

John 8: 24… That is why I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins." 28 So Jesus said (to them), **“When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will realize that I AM, **and that I do nothing on my own, but I say only what the Father taught me. 29 The one who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, because I always do what is pleasing to him.”

If you are directing that to me I don’t understand at all. I am a simple person and I don’t follow what you wrote very well at all.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gabriel of 12;3296891:

If you are directing that to me I don’t understand at all. I am a simple person and I don’t follow what you wrote very well at all.

I am sorry Namesake, your Quote, that all christians preach Christ Crucified, I agreed with you with a great AMEN, but I must of accidently deleted it from my thread, forgive me?

 

[Reuben_J]

It wasn’t the Ressurection that paid for our sins, but His death.

The Cross with Jesus represents The Slaughtered Lamb.

The Sacrifice.

The Victory over sin that He gives us isn’t in His rising, but in His dieing.

Again, what does an empty cross say about the thieves?

Nothing.

It’s not the cross, but The Man on The Cross that makes the difference.

Crosses existed before, after and during Christ, but only “one” had Christ on it is the one that matters.

Just in case we forget what the Lord had done. It’s in his death, crucified, that we see his infinite love. The crucifix is a great reminder for Christians who are forgetful.

 

[2ndGen]

Victory over sin is correct. But the resurrection is the hope of mankind.

But the ressurection for us came before Jesus’ did…by His death.

Again…Matthew 27.

The Saint’s were immediately released from their death upon the death of Christ.

 

[2ndGen]

Just in case we forget what the Lord had done. It’s in his death, crucified, that we see his infinite love. The crucifix is a great reminder for Christians who are forgetful.

 

[Flos_Campi]

2ndGen,

Were there different forms of crucifixion in Roman times ?

The reason I ask is that in Acts 5:30 - 10:39 - 13:29 , it mentions Our Lord as being hung on a tree !

 

[CB_Catholic]

It wasn’t the Ressurection that paid for our sins, but His death.

The Cross with Jesus represents The Slaughtered Lamb.

The Sacrifice.

The Victory over sin that He gives us isn’t in His rising, but in His dieing.

Again, what does an empty cross say about the thieves?

Nothing.

It’s not the cross, but The Man on The Cross that makes the difference.

Crosses existed before, after and during Christ, but only “one” had Christ on it is the one that matters.

The Victory is over sin and death. Without the Resurrection this would have not been accomplished. Jesus would have remained in His tomb and there would be no Christianity. The Mystery of our faith: “Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.” Or: Dying You destroyed our death; Rising You restored our life; Lord Jesus come in Glory." One cannot seperate the Cross from the empty tomb. Remember that the holiest week of the year is followed by the greatest Feast of the Church–Easter Sunday, where we celebrate the Resurrection. Do not downplay the Resurrection–there would have been no Victory over sin and death without it. This is basic Catholicism.

 

[2ndGen]

2ndGen,

Were there different forms of crucifixion in Roman times ?

The reason I ask is that in Acts 5:30 - 10:39 - 13:29 , it mentions Our Lord as being hung on a tree !

In Jesus’ case, I believe that is a tie in to old testament reference, it may have been used figuratively when it was said to compare Christ unjustifiable death.

Deuteronomy 21:22-23
22"If a man has committed a sin worthy of death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree,

23his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is accursed of God), so that you do not defile your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance.

Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us–for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”–

But there were other forms of crucifixion.

 

[2ndGen]

The Victory is over sin and death. Without the Resurrection this would have not been accomplished. Jesus would have remained in His tomb and there would be no Christianity. The Mystery of our faith: “Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.” Or: Dying You destroyed our death; Rising You restored our life; Lord Jesus come in Glory." One cannot seperate the Cross from the empty tomb. Remember that the holiest week of the year is followed by the greatest Feast of the Church–Easter Sunday, where we celebrate the Resurrection. Do not downplay the Resurrection–there would have been no Victory over sin and death without it. This is basic Catholicism.

What about the Saints who rose “before” Jesus’ ressurection in Matthew 27:52?

 

[CB_Catholic]

What about the Saints who rose “before” Jesus’ ressurection in Matthew 27:52?

If you read verses 52 and 53, you will note that these saints did not appear until after the Resurrection. Here is the quote:

“51 And behold the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; 52 the tombs also were opened, and many of the bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.”

There is nothing here to indicate that they recevied glorified bodies, like Christ’s. The fact that they did not come out of the tombs and appear to people until after Christ’s Resurrection is significant. They had not yet received their glorified bodies, and scripture tells us that Christ was the first to be raised in glory. (The footnote that explains this is found in The Gospel of Matthew in the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible.) Scripture cannot contradict itself–these saints were not raised in glory at the time of His death. And knowing that Christ preached to the dead, this is most likely what happened while they were still in their tombs, in their natural physical bodies.

When we Christians receive our resurrected bodies, they will be gloified bodies, like Christ’s. We will be raised in glory, like Him, but He was the first, not those saints.

 

[2ndGen]

If you read verses 52 and 53, you will note that these saints did not appear until after the Resurrection. Here is the quote:

“51 And behold the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; 52 the tombs also were opened, and many of the bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.”

There is nothing here to indicate that they recevied glorified bodies, like Christ’s. The fact that they did not come out of the tombs and appear to people until after Christ’s Resurrection is significant. They had not yet received their glorified bodies, and scripture tells us that Christ was the first to be raised in glory. (The footnote that explains this is found in The Gospel of Matthew in the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible.) Scripture cannot contradict itself–these saints were not raised in glory at the time of His death. And knowing that Christ preached to the dead, this is most likely what happened while they were still in their tombs, in their natural physical bodies.

When we Christians receive our resurrected bodies, they will be gloified bodies, like Christ’s. We will be raised in glory, like Him, but He was the first, not those saints.

Great point…let’s go deeper now:

Matthew 27
50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

54Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Now, according to verse 54, all this happened in real time (meaning as he stood there and witnessed this).

Jesus died.
The veil in the temple shred.
The Saints arose from their death.
They got up and walked around.
The Centurion, a witness to the crucifixion seeing all this happen right there in rapid succession, proclaimed that Jesus was God’s Son.

That “after his ressurection” quote seems to be completely out of the time line, like a prediction of what was to come, yet being stated in the events.

Hmmm…the Centurion says “Truly this was the Son of God.”

Past tense. Jesus was still dead when He said this.

Does this mean that Jesus was ressurected spiritually before His body was ressurected?

So then, the physical ressurection that took place later had nothing to do with paying for our sin. But, it was His spiritual ressurection.

Not saying this is so, but I’m just playing with this until someone throws something else into the soup.

Are there two ressurections? Since the Bible doesn’t lie or contradict itself, I have to bend my mind to the scripture.

What the scriptures states is that Jesus’ body remained dead the whole time that the Centurion (and those there with him keeping guard over Jesus’ dead body).

We know that His physical ressurection took place 3 days later.

So, The Church wouldn’t be contradicting itself if she taught that in rising we got our life. But, whoever teaches that it was the physical resurection that did it would be wong.

What say ye?

 

[CB_Catholic]

Great point…let’s go deeper now:

Matthew 27
50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

54Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Now, according to verse 54, all this happened in real time (meaning as he stood there and witnessed this).

Jesus died.
The veil in the temple shred.
The Saints arose from their death.
They got up and walked around.
The Centurion, a witness to the crucifixion seeing all this happen right there in rapid succession, proclaimed that Jesus was God’s Son.

That “after his ressurection” quote seems to be completely out of the time line, like a prediction of what was to come, yet being stated in the events.

Hmmm…the Centurion says “Truly this was the Son of God.”

Past tense. Jesus was still dead when He said this.

Does this mean that Jesus was ressurected spiritually before His body was ressurected?

So then, the physical ressurection that took place later had nothing to do with paying for our sin. But, it was His spiritual ressurection.

Not saying this is so, but I’m just playing with this until someone throws something else into the soup.

Are there two ressurections? Since the Bible doesn’t lie or contradict itself, I have to bend my mind to the scripture.

What the scriptures states is that Jesus’ body remained dead the whole time that the Centurion (and those there with him keeping guard over Jesus’ dead body).

We know that His physical ressurection took place 3 days later.

So, The Church wouldn’t be contradicting itself if she taught that in rising we got our life. But, whoever teaches that it was the physical resurection that did it would be wong.

What say ye?

The “after His Resurrection” quote was put there by Matthew to emphasize that Christ was the first to be resurrected in Glory. It is a theological point, and it goes against the idea that there were two Resurrections, one spiritual and one physical (which is heresy). He was raised once, entirely, in His glorified physical body.

Christ’s Resurrection did not take place “3 days later”. It took place on the third day. He died and was placed in the tomb shortly before the beginning of the Jewish Sabbath --the first day. He remained in the tomb for the second day–the Sabbath, and was raised from the dead some time after the end of the Sabbath–the third day. When the women went to the tomb shortly before dawn on the third day (the first day of the week according to the Jews), He was already resurrected. We do not know the hour of His Resurrection. This is a short enough period of time for the Centurion, who was apparently present for all these events, to make the connection. It is not necessarily a “rapid fire” sequence of events.

I am not a Scripture scholar. I do not know the original languages, I can’t give you the nuances or literal translations of the Scriptures. I can only go by the Tradition of the Church and any biblical commentaries that I have access to, and my own careful reading of the Scriptures. I try not to speculate, but I can reflect. And putting all this together, in light of Church teaching, the idea of two Resurrections is heretical. There is nothing in the Scriptures or Tradition that Christ’s physical and spiritual natures were ever seperated. The Gospels speak of only one Resurrection. I do not know the name of this specific heresy, perhaps someone else does, but this is not the first time I’ve heard about this idea. I don’t think you just thought this up. It seems to me it is gaining in popularity among the New Agers. Perhaps it sprang from Gnosticism. I don’t know. But I am not going to explore this error, which is against all Christian Tradition (and not just Catholic).

I advise you not to do the same. Reading about such things to increase your knowledge and defend your faith is one thing. I am not opposed to that. We don’t live in a box. But speculating about things and then trying to use Scripture to substantiate ideas outside of 2100 years of Christian Tradition (which has been carefully explored and formulated by those under the guidance of the Holy Spirit) is another thing. Don’t go there. You could eventually end up outside of the Church.

 

[2ndGen]

The "under the guidance of the Holy Spirit) is another thing. Don’t go there. You could eventually end up outside of the Church.

So The Saints rose upon Jesus’ death…“not” His Ressurection. Or rather, they rose from death on Jesus’ death, but left the tombs when Jesus left His tomb?

 

[moondweller]

The “after His Resurrection” quote was put there by Matthew to emphasize that Christ was the first to be resurrected in Glory. It is a theological point, and it goes against the idea that there were two Resurrections, one spiritual and one physical (which is heresy). He was raised once, entirely, in His glorified physical body.

AMEN!1 Pet 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,"It is Christ’s resurrected life (eternal) that the believer receives.

The Apostles proclaimed forgiveness of sins because of the sacrificial death of Christ Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:38 "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,"but the proof of this truth was is in the historical fact of the bodily resurrection of Christ. Which was the message of the Apostles to a dying worldActs 4:33 “And with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all.”

I try not to speculate, but I can reflect. And putting all this together, in light of Church teaching, the idea of two Resurrections is heretical.

AMEN! There is no such thing as a “spiritual” resurrection. “Resurrection” in the Scriptures always refers to the body.

I advise you not to do the same. Reading about such things to increase your knowledge and defend your faith is one thing. I am not opposed to that. We don’t live in a box. But speculating about things and then trying to use Scripture to substantiate ideas outside of 2100 years of Christian Tradition (which has been carefully explored and formulated by those under the guidance of the Holy Spirit) is another thing. Don’t go there. You could eventually end up outside of the Church.

2nd Gen. is one of the most aggressive posters on this forum, but he is proving to be the least educated in even the basics of the Christian faith (Catholic or Protestant). He argues for argument sake, and now his flirting with a “two resurrection” theory is putting him dangerously close to traveling down the road of the cults and those who espouse heresy.

 

[CB_Catholic]

AMEN!

There is no such thing as a “spiritual” resurrection. “Resurrection” in the Scriptures always refers to the body.2nd Gen. is one of the most aggressive posters on this forum, but he is proving to be the least educated in even the basics of the Christian faith (Catholic or Protestant). He argues for argument sake, and now his flirting with a “two resurrection” theory is putting him dangerously close to traveling down the road of the cults and those who espouse heresy.
​

I witnessed a prime example of this a number of years ago when a friend persuaded us to go to a six-week series on a then popular book called The Celestine Prophecy. I read the book, thinking it was just another mystery, and being ignorant of “New Age” ( which is really “Old Age” in a new package) ideas and practices, I went to the lectures. I was in for an eye-opener. I knew from the beginning that something wasn’t “kosher”.

The presenter was an ex-priest who had embraced this type of spirituality and was spreading his views to unsuspecting Catholics around the Diocese. Furthermore, he was giving his lectures at the Motherhouse of an order of Sisters, and judging by their greetings to him, they knew him quite well. This series of lectures was very well-attended. I attended the whole series, because I knew there was something here I needed to know about, something that was leading Christians astray, and God wanted me to become educated in these matters. I was sufficiently grounded in my faith (this is important) to not be influenced by these ideas.

We started out with the writings of Carl Jung, proceeded to the Tarot, astrology, a certain type of Hawaiian spirituality,“auras”, the “hidden” books of the Bible, and on to Christ. This was the first time I learned of the idea of a “spiritual” resurrection of Christ. I was exposed to the gamut of New Age spirituality, and what was appalling, was that much of it was disguised as Chrisianity. My friends and I corralled this man in a restaurant after one of the lectures. He had stated he worshipped God in the Catholic church (he was actually a member of the parish one of my friends belonged to). We hit him up front with Catholic doctrine and questioned him point blank on his beliefs. He denied the physical resurrection of Christ, (among other things). Yet he attended Mass with his family regularly and received the Eucharist. He also ran a Spiritual Center from which he taught these things, and you could order Tarot cards and books and lectures and tapes and objects (they sent us their newsletters). We made him very uncomfortable, but we attended the rest of the lectures, while he studiously avoided addressing us by name, and eye contact. This whole experience was a real eye-opener for my friends and me.

 This is why we need to be grounded in our faith. This is why we need to submit to the teaching authority of the Church. This is why we can't listen to every guru that appears on the scene without testing their ideas against Scripture and Tradition. And if we have not been educated sufficiently in our faith, we need to get off our butts and educate ourselves, and then present the Truth to others. We are losing many Catholics to the garbage that is being preached today.

I apologize for the length of my posts.​

 

[justinthemartyr]

the cross without the sacrifice of Christ has no power.

it is feminized at best, taking the only thing that gives us eternal life, which is the shed blood of the perfect sacrifice of the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. our sins were not taken away through the resurrection from the tomb, but through the shed blood of Christ on the cross.

 

[moondweller]

I apologize for the length of my posts.

No apology necessary. All of Christianity is being seduced by this New Age “gospel” dressed up in Christian terminology. Therefore Christians must continually make themselves aware of such deceptions, cling to the basic tenants of the Christian faith, and always keep in mind the principle that “a little leaven leavens the whole lump.”

Thanks for the post. I know that in some Protestant churches yoga is now being taught.