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Jimmy_B
Guest
What is the difference between Catholic Salvation and non-Catholic Christian Salvation? Is there Salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church?
What is the difference between Catholic Salvation and non-Catholic Christian Salvation? Is there Salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church?
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puzzleannie
Guest
dear Jimmy, one of our most enthusiastic participants, please learn to use the search feature for topics that are covered by articles on the CA homepage, linked to AA answers, and frequently answered on the forums
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iamACE
Guest
Extra ecclessiam nullam salus (Outside the Church there is no Salvation), was the old standing of the Church but it was changed because Christ’s saving acts are not exclusive for a single religion only.
Comments above does not reflect the real standing of the Catholic Church.
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SIA
Guest
I don’t think Salvation is exclusive to any one denomination.
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abcd
Guest
There goes so much “that the catholic church never changes”- Not
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EmergencyOps
Guest
Bingo. Does anyone have a link to the new declaration? I searched the Vatican’s website but couldn’t find it. I remember it calling all other faiths “ecclesiastical communities”.
-Mark
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adelaida_i
Guest
Dear Jimmy,
In Vatican II Council the Catholic Church have said:
“the separated Churches(23) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.”
for more details see:
stjosef.at/council/search/UR3.htm
But, I’m turning back your question:
What does salvation mean for you? Did you feel saved since you became a Catholic? Is it enough to be baptized in the Catholic Church to be saved?!
I think this questions are far more important for us that trying to underline differences that are not so much important, especially because this insisting on differences mainly divide people, and our purpose is to become as One, in Christ!
Regards,
Adelaida
In Vatican II Council the Catholic Church have said:
“the separated Churches(23) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.”
for more details see:
stjosef.at/council/search/UR3.htm
But, I’m turning back your question:
What does salvation mean for you? Did you feel saved since you became a Catholic? Is it enough to be baptized in the Catholic Church to be saved?!
I think this questions are far more important for us that trying to underline differences that are not so much important, especially because this insisting on differences mainly divide people, and our purpose is to become as One, in Christ!
Regards,
Adelaida
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ralphinal
Guest
The proper understanding of Extra ecclessiam nullam salus must include the context. When it was proclaimed, the idea was held that anyone who was not Catholic knew the truth and they CHOSE to deny Christ, as it was the only form of Christianity. We know now that this is not the case, nor was it ever the case. It still holds that you cannot be saved if you know Jesus is God and deny him or if you know that the Catholic Church is the true church founded by Christ and deny it. If, through no fault of your own, you do not know one or both of these points, you are not doomed. Any person can be saved if they act upon the grace given to them by God. Even a pagan may enter heaven.
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iamACE
Guest
I think this old standing was not adressed to the Protestants but to the people who did’nt accept Christ. But as I have said, it was changed.
*My comments above does not reflect the real standing of the Catholic Church
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Rolltide
Guest
Some people think that the Catholic position on No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church changed during Vatican II, but the pope came to the same conclusion at least as far back as the discovery of the New World. When Amerigo Vespucci realized that Columbus had, in fact, discovered two new continents (just after 1500), a huge theological debate ensued. Why would God create two entire continents of people just to be damned because they had no way of learning about Christianity? The conclusion reached was the same as today. If, through no fault of your own, you were not exposed to the truth of the Catholic Church, and honestly tried to do your best to follow God and be a moral person in life, then there was at least a chance that the person could still go to heaven. Of course, if the person knew the truth of Catholicism, and rejected it (which would have included EVERY Protestant in the 1500s, since this was the very beginning of the Reformation), then they were likely doomed to hell. At that time, no one would yet have been born into Protestantism, and so the Church simply said that all Protestants were essentially damned. As time went on, the possibility grew that some would be born into the denomination without actually knowing about the truth of Catholic doctrine, which is why the Catholic Church seems somewhat more lenient today. The position has remained more consistent than what people think.
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ralphinal
Guest
You sir, are correct. What amazes me are not the non-Catholics who do not understand this concept, but the CATHOLICS. You are very correct that the position is still the same.
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Freshman88
Guest
I find this hard to believe. I could have sworn that our faith was unchanging - there is unity in the Church, unity now and unity with the ancients - the faith has not changed nor will it ever.
I for one believe firmly in Extra ecclessiam nullam salus. I would like to see a document that contradicts this.
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Genesis315
Guest
The salvation of all people who are saved is the same–they are saved by grace. Since this grace comes from the Divine Head (Christ) through His Mystical Body, the Catholic Church (who’s chief see is Rome), there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
However, there may be those who do not formally profess the Catholic faith in all its entirety that are united to the Church in a mysterious way and therefore can be saved.
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Freshman88
Guest
Exactly! this is Extra Ecclesium nullam salus.I don’t know why the previous poster believes this has changed.
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Genesis315
Guest
Just in case there are those who think this has been abandoned, here’s what some recent Pontiffs say:
John Paul I
According to the words of St Augustine, an image dear to the ancient Fathers of the Church, the ship of the Church must not fear, because it is guided by Christ and by his Vicar: “Although the ship is tossed about, it is still a ship. It carries the disciples and it receives Christ. Yes, it is tossed on the sea but without it, one would immediately perish” (Sermon 75,3; PL 38,475). Only in the Church is salvation: *without it one perishes!
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/jp1progr.htm
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John Paul II
“Since Christ brings about salvation through his Mystical Body, which is the Church, the way of salvation is connected essentially with the Church. The axiom extra ecclesiam nulla salus”–“outside the Church there is no salvation”–stated by St. Cyprian (Epist. 73, 21; PL 1123 AB), belongs to the Christian tradition. It was included in the Fourth Lateran Council (DS 802), in the Bull Unam Sanctam of Boniface VIII (DS 870) and the Council of Florence (Decretum pro Jacobitis, DS 1351)."
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19950531en.html
Benedict XVI
Indeed, the Church was easily his favourite subject. Cyprian distinguished between the* visible, *hierarchical *Church *and the *invisible *mystical *Church *but forcefully affirmed that the Church is one, founded on Peter.
He never wearied of repeating that “if a man deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, does he think that he is in the Church?” (cf.* De unit. [On the unity of the Catholic Church], *4).
Cyprian knew well that “outside the Church there is no salvation”, and said so in strong words (Epistles 4, 4 and 73, 21); and he knew that “no one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as mother” (*De unit., *6). An indispensable characteristic of the Church is unity, symbolized by Christ’s seamless garment (*ibid., *7): Cyprian said, this unity is founded on Peter (*ibid., *4), and its perfect fulfilment in the Eucharist (*Epistle *63, 13).
“God is one and Christ is one”, Cyprian cautioned, “and his Church is one, and the faith is one, and the Christian people is joined into a substantial unity of body by the cement of concord. Unity cannot be severed. And what is one by its nature cannot be separated” (De unit., 23).
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20070606_en.html
John Paul I
According to the words of St Augustine, an image dear to the ancient Fathers of the Church, the ship of the Church must not fear, because it is guided by Christ and by his Vicar: “Although the ship is tossed about, it is still a ship. It carries the disciples and it receives Christ. Yes, it is tossed on the sea but without it, one would immediately perish” (Sermon 75,3; PL 38,475). Only in the Church is salvation: *without it one perishes!
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/jp1progr.htm
*
John Paul II
“Since Christ brings about salvation through his Mystical Body, which is the Church, the way of salvation is connected essentially with the Church. The axiom extra ecclesiam nulla salus”–“outside the Church there is no salvation”–stated by St. Cyprian (Epist. 73, 21; PL 1123 AB), belongs to the Christian tradition. It was included in the Fourth Lateran Council (DS 802), in the Bull Unam Sanctam of Boniface VIII (DS 870) and the Council of Florence (Decretum pro Jacobitis, DS 1351)."
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19950531en.html
Benedict XVI
Indeed, the Church was easily his favourite subject. Cyprian distinguished between the* visible, *hierarchical *Church *and the *invisible *mystical *Church *but forcefully affirmed that the Church is one, founded on Peter.
He never wearied of repeating that “if a man deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, does he think that he is in the Church?” (cf.* De unit. [On the unity of the Catholic Church], *4).
Cyprian knew well that “outside the Church there is no salvation”, and said so in strong words (Epistles 4, 4 and 73, 21); and he knew that “no one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as mother” (*De unit., *6). An indispensable characteristic of the Church is unity, symbolized by Christ’s seamless garment (*ibid., *7): Cyprian said, this unity is founded on Peter (*ibid., *4), and its perfect fulfilment in the Eucharist (*Epistle *63, 13).
“God is one and Christ is one”, Cyprian cautioned, “and his Church is one, and the faith is one, and the Christian people is joined into a substantial unity of body by the cement of concord. Unity cannot be severed. And what is one by its nature cannot be separated” (De unit., 23).
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20070606_en.html
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ralphinal
Guest
I think that since we do not say “Non-Catholics go to hell” like they think that we used to, we have changed. Again, it amazes me how many Catholics don’t understand it either.
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adelaida_i
Guest
Dear Ralph,
Yes the Catholic Church position have changed, and is incredible that some of us do not now it. It is also incredible that I posted the citation from Vatican II Council were it writes this new position and it seems that nobody read it!?!
A give a new link, maybe more respectable that the first one:
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html
Look at the first chapter, all the point 3.!
It means that for the Lord also the other Churches have their importance in the salvation of the humanity. But the fullness of the salvation is to be found only in the Catholic Church, for only here we have “the all-embracing means of salvation” – the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church. For many this second affirmation is interpreted as the arrogance of the Catholic Church, even it is not, it is only what we really think it is the truth, and it is something anybody can VERIFY!
Best regards,
Adelaida
Yes the Catholic Church position have changed, and is incredible that some of us do not now it. It is also incredible that I posted the citation from Vatican II Council were it writes this new position and it seems that nobody read it!?!
A give a new link, maybe more respectable that the first one:
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html
Look at the first chapter, all the point 3.!
It means that for the Lord also the other Churches have their importance in the salvation of the humanity. But the fullness of the salvation is to be found only in the Catholic Church, for only here we have “the all-embracing means of salvation” – the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church. For many this second affirmation is interpreted as the arrogance of the Catholic Church, even it is not, it is only what we really think it is the truth, and it is something anybody can VERIFY!
Best regards,
Adelaida
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Rolltide
Guest
I’m a history professor at a small private college in the South, and I can definitively tell you that you’re wrong. You may want to investigate the 16th century documents of Antonio de Montesinos and Bartolome de las Casas, and their correspondence with Charles V of Spain and the pope. I’ll see if I can find the documents and post them tonight when I get off of work tonight. I even have copies of the originals from the Palacio Real and Ministerio de Asuntos Exteriores in Madrid, Spain from when I was doing research for my dissertation over there. (Although actually, the best documents would be in the Archivo de los Indios in Seville…)
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ralphinal
Guest
Unlike RollTide, i am no historian. I am also not a theologen. So I am not able to see how this is a change. It is a better understanding, pointed out that those born into other denominations beleive in Christ but are not aware of the Church’s role in salvation. Note that it says they are not guilty of the separation. Do you consider it a change because it does not say that Protestants are going to hell?
Please clarify how this is a retraction or change.
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adelaida_i
Guest
The change is not so easy to understand from the Council text alone. You have to consider a little bit the History of the Church. They are not only saying that the Orthodox, the Protestants and the others are not going to hell. They are saying that they may have a role in the God plan of salvation!
Before the II Vatican all the Theology Faculties have a very serious course that was Apologetics, which at that moment meant: how to convert the ones that are not Catholics! (as the salvation is only in the Catholic Church it was a matter of love to the others to try to convert them!) Now you are not seeing priests that are preaching that the Protestants are wrong, but that they are our brothers. They are not trying so much to convert them, but to understand each other and to call everybody to unity, which would be what Christ desires from us. They are preferring to cooperate, to live what Christianity is for us between them, and if they wish, with them!
Now, I have studied Theology in a Catholic Institute, and at that time I was an orthodox. I haven’t heard a word against the orthodoxy, but I also haven’t heard a word against Protestants. But If you are going to study theology in an Orthodox Faculty (at least in Romania where I am from), they are teaching you Dogmatics telling you what is wrong with the other Churches and how to convince them that they are wrong, as the Catholic Church itself was doing 50 years ago!
Now, one year and a half ago I decided, after a very log time of thinking, that the Catholic Church was the right way. I was to talk with a priest about my intentions to convert and what he told me: “IS NOT NECESSARY!”. It is true that I was part of a catholic movement by that time, that I liked the movement so much that I was really hoping (and I’m still hoping) that some time this way of life will be known to all Christians of all denominations, leaving them in that denomination eventualy, but changing their life in such a better way!!! But that answer made me think that Vatican II made a big change!
But still, this cannot make us say that our faith and the others faith are equally right, this simply wouldn’t be true! And is not arrogance that make me say this, is the love for the Truth itself, for what I have seen and for what I am living after many years searching and desiring a life like this!
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