What is the difference between Catholic Salvation and non-Catholic Christian Salvation? Is there Salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church?

[embertx3]

And your non-Catholic Christian brothers and sisters thank you for that insult.

IMO I see it more of an insult to the Catholic Church. It is like a parent seeing their children doing their own thing.

The answer is No the OP. If one truly understand the Catholic Church and yet rejects her.

 

[Frank_J]

Hi Adelaida,

Welcome I see you are from Bergamo, Italy. My family come from Italy a generation ago. I wa born here in the U.S.A.

I like some of your remarks except the following ones, " (I think Orthodox should learn something on charity! As the charity we have for the other is nothing else that part of the Charity He had for us incarnating; taking care on the others one gives Him honor and makes Him visible in mid of us.)"

Charity has always been a part of my Church and will always be. Before I converted from RC to OC I was treated kindly by my brothers and sisters.

I was raised Roman Catholic and when I attended a Traditionalists Mass called Tridentine Mass in Boston I was shown great disrespect by a Novus Ordo Nuns in the Church that is used by the by the former Cardinal. Cardinal Law never once ever visited Holy Trinity German Catholic when we had the Tridentine Mass. He never show us the respect we should had as being one of the flock. The Roman Catholic clergy didn’t treat with any respect they only showed us was disrespect in every turn. We always wanted our own Traditionalists clergy we never trusted them for what they did to us.

Second I would like to add on the Orthodox confess and the Eucharist. The first part is true in some Orthodox Churches and other are different.

Yet in your next part of your statement you said that you “suffered from as Orthodox”. I don’t see where can suffer when one show respect to GOD by receiving HIM 4 times a year.
If I had the choice to receive HIM every day and not showing respect to GOD in the Eucharist or receiving HIM 4 times a year. My choice would be the second and not the first.

It is a common thing that the Orthodox confess always before having the communion. I know also that the Orthodox Church recommends to have communion in the long fast periods of the year (so, 4 times a year is considered enough, from respect toward Christ in Eucharist!).
This helps a lot to understand the importance of the gesture you make, the value of what you receive. At the same time it concentrate all the religious life on the ritual so much that the relationship between the sacraments and the daily life is not so easy to see anymore (at least this is what I suffered from as Orthodox).

The Orthodox Church is the place to be and why you left the Church is between you and GOD. GOD will asks you why!

Have to go, but please ponder what I wrote here.

Ciao

 

[elts1956]

If you are a sincere follower of Christ and the Bible, you’re a Christian, period. IMO, the denomination is simply how you exercise your Christian faith.

This eternal squabbling between denominations over who is right and who is wrong has to give God a constant migraine. This doesn’t even count the non-Christian faiths who feel their relationship with God is correct. Heck, maybe none of us have it completely right!

Hi 68ware,

“Believers” of what exactly? I’m pretty sure when you put an “s” on the end of “believer” (singular) that makes it “believers” (plural) or more than one believer, right? If there is a single body of “Christian” believers, don’t they all technically have to “believe” in the same thing? You’ve lost me here.

There exists an estimated 36000+ different non-Catholic Christian and Protestant faiths, sects’, “cults”, religions or denominations. This means that there exists 36,000+ different “Christian” beliefs, if this were not the case; there would be only one non-Catholic Christian or Protestant religion.

It is time for Christian Unity… Please proceed directly to the nearest Roman Catholic Church and become part of Real Christian Unity today. We have over 2500 dioceses worldwide, in every country and one billion members but there is still plenty of room for everybody else.

The Catholic Mass is celebrated at least once a day every day, all year. Moreover, at many parishes, Mass is celebrated more than once a day.

How many religions exist where someone can attend a “Church Service” (Mass) every day?

When a Catholic Mass is celebrated, we are all united as one, focused on Jesus Christ, with all other Catholics worldwide, who if attending Mass at the same hour, are all attending essentially the same Mass and praying the same prayers at the same time. Additionally, they will hear the same Bible readings for that day…How’s that for “Real Christian Unity” or “One Body of Believers”?

Once again… Please proceed directly to the nearest Roman Catholic Church and become part of Real Christian unity today.

Thank you for your cooperation

Hi Jimmy B. I have read some of your previous posts with interest. I would have to re-read them again to see if I agree with all of them. But then, you sound like a Catholic who has studied his religion in depth and is privaleged to be a part of a great faith. However, I would like to ask this question which has been posted in a different way on another thread, “Do you believe Catholics are the only ones having the right to call themselves Christian”? Please do remember that although all other religions are not seen by Catholics as having the full repository of faith, each of these faiths do have some of the truth. I am sure you have read Pope John Paul II’s Et Unum Sint?

I am so proud of my paraphrasing of it, I just have to repeat it here. If I keep this up, I will have it posted on every thread available.

My paraphrasing of Et Unum Sint

No Dogma or Doctrine already given to the Catholic Church can be contradicted. It is also stated that all Dogmas and Doctrines have been given. There will be no more. They were given by Christ and his Apostles. The Pope and Magisterium can more deeply understand or expand the meaning of Doctrines or Dogmas as the church grows and matures, but the essence of those beliefs remains absolute. Cannot change. First Pope John Paul II praised those martyrs who have died for their faith, Catholic and non-Catholic alike. “They have given their lives for their faith in Christ”. He then stated ,(Hope I get this right) that ONLY within the Catholic Church is there full hope of Salvation. He then said that ALL churches and religious communities,Catholic or not, have some element of Catholic truth in them. ie. we don’t disagree on EVERYTHING. This being so, the MEMBERS of these churches and communities have remained within the Catholic community to the extent both Catholic and non-Catholic Churches have these beliefs. So whether we as Catholic, or non-Catholics like this pronouncement or not, we are all at least “partially” joined to the Catholic Community. Then: It is through the Grace the Catholic Church receives from Christ that all members of this Catholic community, including the non-Catholic members ,receive Grace as far as their beliefs align with those of the Catholic Church and they have some hope of Salvation. (My very personal belief is that God would find some way to save all but those who do not seek Him.)

BUT it is only by being a full member of the Catholic Church, a Catholic in good standing, that we receive all Grace because the Catholic Chruch is the only Church that has the full truth as given to us by Christ and his Aposlles.

I have great difficulty with some of the posters on these threads who feel their only duty to the church is to evangelize through brow beating. There are other ways to teach. The best that I know of is FIRST listen, Secondly TEACH AND EXPLAIN the doctrines, teachings of the Church without those statements becoming subjectively defensive. What do we as Catholics have to defend? We know the truth, share that truth and do it in love.

 

[elts1956]

God can save whoever He wants, however He desires. He has given us the Church, His Body, as the normative means of salvation. What the Church teaches it is that all who are saved are members of His Body, and are therefore, members of His Church. There is only One Body, and One Church, so they are Catholic whether they know it, or not. To the extent that they do not know or understand Her Teachings, they are improperly joined. It is my prayerful hope that they are invicibly ignorant. As to those who know, and still reject, they have been judged already because they do not believe.

Hello. I enjoyed reading your post. I think there are so many reasons and levels of invincible ignorance that we couldn’t begin to sort them out if we tried. I really believe most non-Catholics stay with their chosen faiths because:

1. That is what they are comfortable with. Perhaps it is the Faith of their parents…? Friends…?
2. After searching to fill that need, within the Faith they practice is as far as they got in their search.
3. They truly belive they have found all the answers.
4. They don’t want to search further because they are afraid they will betray their beliefs.

I think God takes these reasons and much, much more into consideration as He watches us and guides us to the hour of our death. He understands, even if we don’t, that his faithful search for Him in many ways and down many avenues. Those that are in the right place at the right time will pass through the Catholic Church.

 

[elts1956]

God can save whoever He wants, however He desires. He has given us the Church, His Body, as the normative means of salvation. What the Church teaches it is that all who are saved are members of His Body, and are therefore, members of His Church. There is only One Body, and One Church, so they are Catholic whether they know it, or not. To the extent that they do not know or understand Her Teachings, they are improperly joined. It is my prayerful hope that they are invicibly ignorant. As to those who know, and still reject, they have been judged already because they do not believe.

There goes so much “that the catholic church never changes”- Not

The dictum, The Catholic Church never changes in matters of Doctrine, Dogma, Faith and Morals, still stands. Please read my post # 101 this thread regarding Pope Paul II’s Et Unum Sint.

 

[elts1956]

Hi Adelaida,

Welcome I see you are from Bergamo, Italy. My family come from Italy a generation ago. I wa born here in the U.S.A.

I like some of your remarks except the following ones, " (I think Orthodox should learn something on charity! As the charity we have for the other is nothing else that part of the Charity He had for us incarnating; taking care on the others one gives Him honor and makes Him visible in mid of us.)"

Charity has always been a part of my Church and will always be. Before I converted from RC to OC I was treated kindly by my brothers and sisters.

I was raised Roman Catholic and when I attended a Traditionalists Mass called Tridentine Mass in Boston I was shown great disrespect by a Novus Ordo Nuns in the Church that is used by the by the former Cardinal.

The sisters were out of line and so was Bishp Law. Why Bishop Law has not been reprimanded for the debaucle of Communion being served to Kennedy, Pelosi and others who uphold abortion, we, the laity, will never know. Perhaps he has been. He allowed great scandal to be given to the Holy Mother Church and lessened Her credulity with those not of the Catholic Faith who believe as we do and also our Protestant brothers and sisters.

We need to remember that even those in the hirearchy of the Church as still human with human foibles and pride and even sometimes greed.

Cardinal Law never once ever visited Holy Trinity German Catholic when we had the Tridentine Mass. He never show us the respect we should had as being one of the flock. The Roman Catholic clergy didn’t treat with any respect they only showed us was disrespect in every turn. We always wanted our own Traditionalists clergy we never trusted them for what they did to us.

Second I would like to add on the Orthodox confess and the Eucharist. The first part is true in some Orthodox Churches and other are different.

Yet in your next part of your statement you said that you “suffered from as Orthodox”. I don’t see where can suffer when one show respect to GOD by receiving HIM 4 times a year.
If I had the choice to receive HIM every day and not showing respect to GOD in the Eucharist or receiving HIM 4 times a year. My choice would be the second and not the first.

It is a common thing that the Orthodox confess always before having the communion. I know also that the Orthodox Church recommends to have communion in the long fast periods of the year (so, 4 times a year is considered enough, from respect toward Christ in Eucharist!).
This helps a lot to understand the importance of the gesture you make, the value of what you receive. At the same time it concentrate all the religious life on the ritual so much that the relationship between the sacraments and the daily life is not so easy to see anymore (at least this is what I suffered from as Orthodox).

The Orthodox Church is the place to be and why you left the Church is between you and GOD. GOD will asks you why!

Have to go, but please ponder what I wrote here.

Ciao

 

[elts1956]

Hi Adelaida,

Welcome I see you are from Bergamo, Italy. My family come from Italy a generation ago. I wa born here in the U.S.A.

I like some of your remarks except the following ones, " (I think Orthodox should learn something on charity! As the charity we have for the other is nothing else that part of the Charity He had for us incarnating; taking care on the others one gives Him honor and makes Him visible in mid of us.)"

Charity has always been a part of my Church and will always be. Before I converted from RC to OC I was treated kindly by my brothers and sisters.

I was raised Roman Catholic and when I attended a Traditionalists Mass called Tridentine Mass in Boston I was shown great disrespect by a Novus Ordo Nuns in the Church that is used by the by the former Cardinal. Cardinal Law never once ever visited Holy Trinity German Catholic when we had the Tridentine Mass. He never show us the respect we should had as being one of the flock. The Roman Catholic clergy didn’t treat with any respect they only showed us was disrespect in every turn. We always wanted our own Traditionalists clergy we never trusted them for what they did to us.

Second I would like to add on the Orthodox confess and the Eucharist. The first part is true in some Orthodox Churches and other are different.

Yet in your next part of your statement you said that you “suffered from as Orthodox”. I don’t see where can suffer when one show respect to GOD by receiving HIM 4 times a year.
If I had the choice to receive HIM every day and not showing respect to GOD in the Eucharist or receiving HIM 4 times a year. My choice would be the second and not the first.

It is a common thing that the Orthodox confess always before having the communion. I know also that the Orthodox Church recommends to have communion in the long fast periods of the year (so, 4 times a year is considered enough, from respect toward Christ in Eucharist!).
This helps a lot to understand the importance of the gesture you make, the value of what you receive. At the same time it concentrate all the religious life on the ritual so much that the relationship between the sacraments and the daily life is not so easy to see anymore (at least this is what I suffered from as Orthodox).

The Orthodox Church is the place to be and why you left the Church is between you and GOD. GOD will asks you why!

Have to go, but please ponder what I wrote here.

Ciao

The sisters were out of line and so was Bishp Law. Why Bishop Law has not been reprimanded for the debaucle of Communion being served to Kennedy, Pelosi and others who uphold abortion, we, the laity, will never know. Perhaps he has been. He allowed great scandal to be given to the Holy Mother Church and lessened Her credulity with those not of the Catholic Faith…

We need to remember that even those in the hirearchy of the Church are still human with human foibles and pride and even sometimes greed.:yup: :yup:

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hi Jimmy B… “Do you believe Catholics are the only ones having the right to call themselves Christian”? .

Hello elts1956,

Thank you for of your kind words. Usually, when people read more of what I have written…they like me even less.

Additionally, I try not to have my own opinion regarding Catholicism because as a Catholic, I try to fully and completely surrender to Christ and His Church.

I do though; have a tendency, from time to time, of posting incorrect information, especially about other denominations. This usually occurs when I post something based on something I have read previously and was too lazy to go back and read it again before posting. Thankfully, most here put up with me and give me another chance.

My personal goal here is, not to post anything, which might be contrary to Catholic teachings but sometimes, just my “grumpy old man” tone, isn’t very "Christian’ like, even if what I am posting happens to be a Christian truth…

To answer your question, anyone who is properly Baptized can call themselves “Christian”.

Peace

 

[elts1956]

Hello elts1956,

Thank you for of your kind words. Usually, when people read more of what I have written…they like me even less.

Additionally, I try not to have my own opinion regarding Catholicism because as a Catholic, I try to fully and completely surrender to Christ and His Church.

I do though; have a tendency, from time to time, of posting incorrect information, especially about other denominations. This usually occurs when I post something based on something I have read previously and was too lazy to go back and read it again before posting. Thankfully, most here put up with me and give me another chance.

My personal goal here is, not to post anything, which might be contrary to Catholic teachings but sometimes, just my “grumpy old man” tone, isn’t very "Christian’ like, even if what I am posting happens to be a Christian truth…

To answer your question, anyone who is properly Baptized can call themselves “Christian”.

Peace

You are tooooooo funny. I must have misread one of your posts. Thanks.

 

[adelaida_i]

Welcome I see you are from Bergamo, Italy. My family come from Italy a generation ago. I wa born here in the U.S.A.

I like some of your remarks except the following ones

Hello Frank,

It is true, I don’t know all Orthodox Churches. The one I lived and made part of for quite 30 years was the Romanian Orthodox Church. Maybe in East Europe the situation of the Church is very different of the Orthodox Church as it survived in America.

If I made some remarks you didn’t like it was not to criticize the Church. There are many good things I learned there and I try not to forget one. But, after 50 years of communism the whole society there (not only the Church) is not a normal one. After years in which you could not trust the others because everybody could be a spy of secret police, there is no more community in the Church. All that rest there is the creed, the ritual and the sacraments, and all this in little connection with the real life of common people.

You said that you were offended by the attitude of a certain Cardinal. What people in Russia can say when the Patriarch itself makes ceremonies where in the first place is president Putin that, on the other side, is the head of a mafia that nobody goes against if it wants to stay alive (there are many newspapermen that are dead because they tried!!!).

All that I want to say is that some Orthodox Churches need help. Maybe other Orthodox could give it. There are also some Catholics that are giving a hand. I’d really like to talk some more with you on this matters but I don’t know if a thread is the right place.
With love in Christ,

Adelaida

 

[mikew262]

The Catholic Church is not a denomination of Christianity. It is the fullness of Christianity.

Point taken, but to most and for common understanding in everyday language, the Catholic Church is considered a denomination of Christianity.

 

[mikew262]

Hello Famule,

Great post!

I just wanted to add - Catholicism is the first Christian religion, founded by Jesus Christ, processing an unbroken, Apostolic chain, back to Pentecost, Saint Peter (who is buried beneath, St, Peter’ Basilica, Vatican City) and Christ, which all other Christian denominations follow and which they all broke from.

All other Christian denominations have broken from the original, early Christian Church, which is the Catholic Church.

The Roman Catholic Church gave us the Bible and the Catholic Church represents - The Full Deposit of Faith.

All Christian truth is found in Catholicism, where other denominations, contain only partial truths.

Peace

Keep in mind the Reformation took place because many felt the Church had become corrupt and it had, to some degree.

What if the Church all of sudden became corrupt in your mind? Say the Church all of a sudden ordained woman priests, decided the Eucharist was symbol only, and Mary didn’t really ascend into Heaven, would you still remain a Catholic, or would you break away? Obviously, none of that will happen. However, the point being, 500 yrs ago, the reformers felt in clear conscious they could not live with the Church anymore in it’s present form, so they broke off. Were they wrong in doing that? Only God can answer that.

Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church? Yes, I think so, but again God only truly knows.

 

[guanophore]

Keep in mind the Reformation took place because many felt the Church had become corrupt and it had, to some degree.

No, the Church cannot become corrupt becauase of her holy elements. Her head is Christ, and she is ensouled by the Holy Spirit. Because the divine elements of the Church are immutable, corruption is impossible.

“Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word, 27 so as to present the church to himself in splendor, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind — yes, so that she may be holy and without blemish.” Eph 5:25-28

The Church is infallible and pure. However, there are fallible people joined to her, and humans are able to be corrupted, and are always in need of reform. This is the error made by the Reformers. They did not perceive that which is holy and without blemish. They looked at the corrupt behavior of persons and could not discern the divinity present.

 

[Frank_J]

Hi Adelaida,

I’m a member of an O.C.A Church here in Massachusetts. I serve and help out every so often a Romanian Orthodox Priest during Divine Liturgy for his fellow Romanians. You stated that were for 30 years in the Romanian Orthodox Church. I sorry you left the Church, I hope you find you way.

I not sure if you were raised in Western or East Europe. With your being in Italy, I not sure in which country you were raised in. If you can give me some more information would answer some of it? Were you raised in Romania??

I have many times served with a Romanian Priest who uses our Church for Divine Liturgy for his community. My community back ground is Russian Orthodox and we follow the Russian style of worship.

I have no use for Communism; it is a great evil that infects this world. Remember this that the Russian Orthodox Church suffered under Communism. Many Priest Nuns and Bishops died for the faith in Jesus Christ. The Communist have a great hate of GOD and wish to destroy any faith in HIM even now.

I have a very deep respect to the Patriarch of Moscow he is a great speaker on moral issues from what I have herd. You said something of former President Putin and some head of a mafia group standing on the other side. I not sure what you are talking about and would have to look at goes on in Russia. I could show you some not so nice people that have had dealing with the Pope. One can lop rocks at one another but that won’t get us any were.

I was not trying to be critical of you I was just upset when someone try to make the RC Church all holy then thou statement. If you could only see what I saw the Roman Catholic do here in Massachusetts you would be very upset with them too. It drives me crazy when someone gives the holy then thou position of the RC Church.

We had a Cardinal name Bernard Law who use to move around Catholic Priest who was preying on young Altar boys for sexual rapping and assault young children. The only reason he did go to jail was that our Attorney General Tom Riley was Incompliant liberal and who didn’t want to nail him. Cardinal Bernard Law would transfer these priests around to different parish here in the Boston area. He knew what was going on and did nothing to help the children he helped to destroy. You may not know that the Pope sent him to Rome and is now serve a parish in Rome and has a very good job in the Vatican. He was not the only one doing this we had many that made the news here in the U.S. You can check everything I said about sexual assault cases here in this State. One of the kids that was molested by Father Gagen or Porter some time ago kill himself in 2005 he was so distort. Cardinal has many problems he did not deal well with.

I to would really like to talk some more with you but not sure how we would get one another’s email address. Not how to do this??? Do you have any ideas??

There is so much I would like to tell you of what I know about the Rome Church. I could give you a little history on your new Church. Not all is bad news some of it is good. Hey what is always said, you take the good with the bad.

GOD bless you.

Frank J

 

[elts1956]

Keep in mind the Reformation took place because many felt the Church had become corrupt and it had, to some degree.

What if the Church all of sudden became corrupt in your mind? Say the Church all of a sudden ordained woman priests, decided the Eucharist was symbol only, and Mary didn’t really ascend into Heaven, would you still remain a Catholic, or would you break away? Obviously, none of that will happen. However, the point being, 500 yrs ago, the reformers felt in clear conscious they could not live with the Church anymore in it’s present form, so they broke off. Were they wrong in doing that? Only God can answer that.

Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church? Yes, I think so, but again God only truly knows.

The doctrines you listed are just that, Doctrines or Dogmas of the Catholic Church. If such happened as you visualize, the Catholic Church would no longer be the Catholic Church.

I am no historian of history, but I believe those Reformists such as Luther did not begin with reforming the doctrines of the Church until after completely separating from the Church. I would have to read all 95 of his theses, but I think he started with the scandals of the hierarchy within the church, such as the Pope selling indulgences, licentious behavior, greed, power etc. All human fallacies, not fallicies of the foundations of what makes the Church Catholic.

 

[mikew262]

The doctrines you listed are just that, Doctrines or Dogmas of the Catholic Church. If such happened as you visualize, the Catholic Church would no longer be the Catholic Church.

I am no historian of history, but I believe those Reformists such as Luther did not begin with reforming the doctrines of the Church until after completely separating from the Church. I would have to read all 95 of his theses, but I think he started with the scandals of the hierarchy within the church, such as the Pope selling indulgences, licentious behavior, greed, power etc. All human fallacies, not fallicies of the foundations of what makes the Church Catholic.

I suppose you’d have to be in the Reformer’s shoes back then to see how they felt. It’s easy to fault them 500 yrs later, however, if we were there back then, I wonder how many of us would’ve taken the same action and split? A lot more than you think, I bet.

We must remember, Protestants are still Christians, followers of Christ, and we should treat them accordingly and they should do the same with us. We may worship differently, but we all follow the same Jesus.

 

[mikew262]

The Church is infallible and pure. However, there are fallible people joined to her, and humans are able to be corrupted, and are always in need of reform. This is the error made by the Reformers. They did not perceive that which is holy and without blemish. They looked at the corrupt behavior of persons and could not discern the divinity present.

As I said earlier to another poster, it’s easy to judge and “Monday Morning QB” 500 yrs later. However, if we had been there and seen what was going on, I wonder how many of us would’ve done the exact same thing. They felt the Church had betrayed them and lost its way, there conscious’ may have left them no choice.

They were still Christians then and the Protestants are now. IMO, their chances at salvation are just as good as ours.

 

[guanophore]

I suppose you’d have to be in the Reformer’s shoes back then to see how they felt. It’s easy to fault them 500 yrs later, however, if we were there back then, I wonder how many of us would’ve taken the same action and split? A lot more than you think, I bet.

We must remember, Protestants are still Christians, followers of Christ, and we should treat them accordingly and they should do the same with us. We may worship differently, but we all follow the same Jesus.

I do not think we all follow the same Jesus. I think that some are following a differnent Jesus. There are some that think all is necessary is to believe that Jesus is Lord, and ask Him into one’s heart, and they are saved. Obedience if not part of it. There are some that think that Jesus “nailed to the cross” the commandments, and they no longer apply.

As I said earlier to another poster, it’s easy to judge and “Monday Morning QB” 500 yrs later. However, if we had been there and seen what was going on, I wonder how many of us would’ve done the exact same thing. They felt the Church had betrayed them and lost its way, there conscious’ may have left them no choice.

They were still Christians then and the Protestants are now. IMO, their chances at salvation are just as good as ours.

This is the issue. Do we go on our “feelings”? If we “feel” that the Church is backward (not with the times) do we bail out? You are right, it is not for us to judge them. But I note that there were many saints during this time that prayed and preached to purify the Church, rather than leaving her.

If Jesus did not care about unity, He would not have prayed for it. He would not have established One Church, he would have a bunch of “bodies” instead of only one. He would have told the Apostles “do what is right in your own eyes”, rather than appointing a teaching authority.

 

[elts1956]

I suppose you’d have to be in the Reformer’s shoes back then to see how they felt. It’s easy to fault them 500 yrs later, however, if we were there back then, I wonder how many of us would’ve taken the same action and split? A lot more than you think, I bet.

We must remember, Protestants are still Christians, followers of Christ, and we should treat them accordingly and they should do the same with us. We may worship differently, but we all follow the same Jesus.

I would imagine living back then and if one were well educated in the Catholic religion one would have been just as frustrated as in reading some of the posts on these threads here at CAF. (That was NOT pointed at you ) But we do have to remember that with all their human frailties, the Popes were the recipients of the Chair of Peter and the Keys of the Kingdom given to the Aposlte Peter by Christ. We can moan and groan, disagree with policies of the Vatican all we want until it come to disparaging Doctrine and Dogma proclaimed ex Cathedra. It would have been wonderful if Luther had had his disagreement with the Church, woke it up to the scandals that were happening and then both he and the Vatican officials were able to dialogue and come to a positive understanding with changes being made where they were indeed necessary. We would have had no split. After his separation from the Church Luther made changes to several of the Doctrines/Dogmas of the Church. This is where he fell completely outside of the established rule of the Pope.

 

[D_M]

A person who has been excommunicated is no longer part of the church; that would include Luther and those who willingly joined with his heresies in the 16th century. A person who is baptized in a protestant denomination though, is not baptized into an excommunication (ie. this is not like original sin), and the church teaches we should not assume fault on the part of protestants who were raised in those denominations, who are all baptized into the universal church. But Luther himself, was most certainly cast out this church by his excommunication in 1521.

II think there is a great deal of scholarly propaganda that exists around the historiography of the reformation.

I for one have difficulty believing that in Europe at this period, in which maybe 15% of the population were even capable of reading, that very many people at all would have any good grasp of Luther’s actual theological disputes of faith and works. I think whatever popular support Luther ever received, was more likely because people generally perceived corruption, and not just in the church by any means, but corruption throughout the whole feudal order that was utterly bound together with the true church.

Many people (that is the peasantry) thought, erroneously, that Luther was going to overthrow the feudal order of paying taxes to Lords, private property, etc. Luther’s reformation of course, according to him, was primarily intellectual in nature, even if most of the people in these countries would not have understood the finer points of the heresies that were being taught.

In 1525, there was peasant unrest in Germany, and many people rose up in arms against the lords, refusing to pay taxes, burning castles, etc…some of them in partial expectation that Luther was going to support them, which of course proved quite deadly when rather then supporting them, Luther decried them to be satanic, and at his call the German princes mobilized troops and wiped out maybe 70,000-100,000 people across the German countryside in the spring of 1525.

(I say that the historical understanding of the reformation is a vicitm of propaganda, because I do not think many protestants (or indeed catholics for that matter) have much familiarity with these sorts of very black events, or if they do they are not given the kind of coverage as say, the diet of Worms in the classic re-telling of the story. Much of the better scholarship on it was conducted in East Germany in the past century, where a classic German hero like Martin Luther, was regarded for some time as a bourgeois puppet.)

When I was in university I studied under one of the world’s experts on this part of the reformation (he happens to be jewish), and he would argue that the popular reformation essentially ended after 1525, and that for the remainder of the period afterwards, the support Luther received was mainly from the princes, territorial magnates and upper class town burghers who had financial and political gain from separation from Rome, and that the new order became a ‘top-down’ imposition on the populace, whether they like it or not, some of which (if I remember correctly) he would suggest the term to call ‘mandatory protestants.’

Luther was in fact hated by some amount of the common people after his siding with the lords against them.

Here is a quotation that came from the writings of Thomas the Minter (German: Thomas Muntzer), a priest in the rebellion who was killed with seven thousand peasants at Frankenhausen, in Thuringia, in 1525:

[he is referring to Luther]

The poor flatterer tries to use Christ to cover himself, adducing a counterfeit type of clemency which is contrary to Paul’s text in I Timothy I.] In his book about trade, however, he says that the princes should not hesitate to join the thieves and robbers in their raids.] He suppresses here, however, the basic reason] for all theft. He is a herald,] who hopes to earn gratitude by approving the spilling of people’s blood for the sake of their earthly goods; something which God has never commanded or approved. Open your eyes! What is the evil brew] from which all usury, theft and creatures are their property?] The fish in the water, the birds in the air, the plants on the face of the earth – it all has to belong to them! Isaiah 5.] To add insult to injury, they have God’s commandment proclaimed to the poor: God has commanded that you should not steal. But it avails them nothing.] For while they do violence to everyone, flay and fleece the poor farm worker, tradesman and everything that breathes, Micah 3,] yet should any of the latter commit the pettiest crime,] he must hang. And Doctor Liar responds, Amen. It is the lords themselves who make the poor man their enemy. If they refuse to do away with the cause of insurrection how can trouble be avoided in the long run? If saying that makes me an inciter to insurrection, so be it!

[note: in German, Doctor ‘Liar’ is Doctor ‘Luger’ which is a pun here on Doctor ‘Luther’]