What is the difference between Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion?

[TheCuriousCat]

I just ate a tomato. It is a life form.

I scrape of living human cells every time I shower. I had a mole with living human cells removed.

We’re not saying that zygotes aren’t life.

 

[MarkInOregon]

That you can’t see the difference between a cluster of non-sentient cells inside someone else’s body and a completely separate human being is beyond me.

The human embryo has its own unique DNA and given nourishment and shelter the young human can develop into nothing other than a full grown human. That you want to deny its humanness by calling it a cluster of non-sentient cells as if it is somehow subhuman is beyond me. There was a time in america when native american’s were not viewed as human, they were called savages, they were killed, rounded up onto reservations and their land was taken. There was a time in america when African american’s were not viewed as human and they were enslaved and used as beasts of burden. Today in american many do not view the fetus as human…

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[TheCuriousCat]

It seems you base you opinion on sentient but then you say late term. It isn’t quite clear what you mean.

I don’t actually have a specific date in my mind about when it ceases to be acceptable. Certainly not after the birth of the baby. I think once the baby can live independently of it’s mother. I don’t see it as a hard line the way you clearly want to.

I don’t know what you mean you weren’t the same person. You have the same DNA. Yes you are your DNA. We are always developing but that does not mean you are not the same person. You didn’t develop into a cat or a dog but a human because that is what you were at conception.

It isn’t mostly the same it is the same and yes you are DNA that is what you make up is. You can’t change it. It determined you eye color your blood type how tall you would be etc. You also disagree with science.

I had a mole removed that had all of my dna, is the mole me? Are there now two Curious Cats out there? No. What makes up me is a complex philosophical question, but what I am not is my dna.

 

[TheCuriousCat]

It isn’t mostly the same it is the same.

Our dna mutates throughout our lifetimes. It is mostly the same, not identical.

 

[JimG]

When does a new individual of the human species have its beginning?

It is obviously at conception, when a new and distinct individual of the human species begins. It grows and develops from conception to birth to adolescence to death, always remaining the same distinct individual.

If you scrape off a skin cell, it is not going to develop into a new and distinct human individual.

If you combine a sperm and egg cell, you will have the beginning of a new and distinct human individual.

 

[MarkInOregon]

None of us get a choice before we were born. Personally, I wouldn’t have chosen to live.

I am sorry to read this. I don’t know what has gone on in your life that you wouldn’t have chosen to live, but I will keep you in my prayers.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[Lion_IRC]

The odd bit is outside of rape or incest(?), it’s logical to conclude someone became pregnant precisely by exercising their free choice, and a pregnancy is the obvious outcome of their choices.

Anti-responsibility might be a more apt description of the decision to abort. Though it is still the taking of an innocents life, I believe the lack of choice is why some advocate the right to abortion in the cases of rape/incest.

Yes you hear the rape pregnancy argument a lot.

Ask anyone in the abortion-on-demand lobby if they would agree to a compromise.
…a ban on all abortions with an exemption for rape pregnancies.

Nope. They won’t. They are so disingenuous.

They know that 99% of abortions are for convenience - economic/financial.

Did you know that many abortion clinics offer fetal anaesthesia? Here’s another fact. Did you know that many pregnant women DECLINE that option? Yep. You guessed it! $$$$$$

For them, abortion is just another form of birth control.

ETA - and the greatest intellectual dishonesty you’ll ever see from the pro-choice lobby is when they vociferously assert that the “rights” of a woman are nobody else’s business but hers, and yet strangely, the tax payer is nonetheless expected to contribute and pay for the ‘choices’ of single mothers. So much for …mind your own business.

 

[adrift]

I had a mole removed that had all of my dna, is the mole me? Are there now two Curious Cats out there? No. What makes up me is a complex philosophical question, but what I am not is my dna.

Your DNA is unique to you. No one else has the same DNA. You came into existence at conception. You didn’t become you some magical time which you cannot p(name removed by moderator)oint. If your mother had aborted it would have been you that died because she didn’t you now have life.

The mole was part of you. It wasn’t all of you. You could have an arm removed. It still would have been your arm. Does the mole have life. Does it grow apart from you? No it is dead because it no longer is apart of you.

 

[pnewton]

I actually find your perspective refreshing. When I was in Catholic high school, I remember having it hammered into us that we should not allow it to be framed as pro-choice vs anti-abortion because anti-abortion sounds too radical. We were pro-life and they were pro-abortion…

Thank you. Some who have been here longer may have noticed that I refer to myself as anti-abortion, at least when the discussion is abortion.

I also have in the last few years consider myself pro-life, but then I accept the Catholic understanding of this, including in areas that make conservatives shiver ( death penalty, poverty, social justice). But if the topic is just abortion, then I stand by being anti-abortion.

 

[phil19034]

Unfortunately, pregnancy is often the direct result of a lack of foresight and personal responsibility, it’s true. I don’t see forcing people to have kids because they showed a distinct lack of judgment is a particularly good solution.

Yes, I find arguments against it particularly unjustifiable.

No. pregnancy happens from participating in the marital act. The program isn’t lack of foresight or personal responsibility. It’s because people who are not married are fornicating or give into lust instead of focusing on true love.

 

[francisca]

Conception is not fertilization.

John 3
6.*"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Conception has something to do with God’s Will and God’s Plan for our salvation and Our Freewill to cooperate with God’s Plan. Humanity is the “female” partner of God’s plan for Salvation.

Conception is found in the bible in Genesis 1:1, and John1:1-14. There are conception for the heaven and earth as well as conception of each of new person.

I agree that we are not mere dna, because we are also spiritual beings. In fact our biological body is a mere temporal vessel for the spirit of God in us.

The bible also write that God has planned our life since the foundation of the earth. Thus life has begun since then, even before we were in our mother’s wombs.

Jeremiah 1
5.*“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
And before you were born I consecrated you; …”

God’s love is what drive conception including in the way humanity cooperate, therefore I would argue that “a motherly instinct” is part of conception. In Isiah 66:9 is said:

Isiah 66
9.* “Shall I bring to the point of birth and not give delivery?” says the LORD.
“Or shall I who gives delivery shut the womb?” says your God.
10.* “Be joyful with Jerusalem and rejoice for her, all you who love her;
Be exceedingly glad with her, all you who mourn over her,
11.* That you may nurse and be satisfied with her comforting breasts,
That you may suck and be delighted with her bountiful bosom.”
12.* For thus says the LORD, "Behold, I extend peace to her like a river,
And the glory of the nations like an overflowing stream;
And you will be nursed, you will be carried on the hip and fondled on the knees.
13.* “As one whom his mother comforts, so I will comfort you;
And you will be comforted in Jerusalem.”
14.* Then you will see this, and your heart will be glad,
And your bones will flourish like the new grass;
And the hand of the LORD will be made known to His servants,
But He will be indignant toward His enemies.
15.* For behold, the LORD will come in fire
And His chariots like the whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16.* For the LORD will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the LORD will be many.
17.* “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens,
Following one in the center,
Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice,
will come to an end altogether,” declares the LORD.

However, what is consisted within “God’s love that nurse the child” is not necessarily only the love of the “birth mother”. It also can mean the love of adoptive parents, and even care-giver at the orphanage, grandparents, and biological father too.

The passage choose the word “nurse” to depict the imporance of a motherly love for the newborn child (the child=Israel, plase read Isiah 46:3), and in contrast, such “nursing love” is not present for God’s enemies (Isiah 66:14-17).

Humanity cooperation to God’s salvation is the question. Our permissive culture goes against God’s plan. God doesn’t will adultery. However, **God’s saving grace can’t be defeated by our sins when a child is born despite the parent’s sins, not by coercion. **

Please read also Job3:11, 10:18-19, 24:20, 31:15-18, 38:8-29; Isiah49:15, 44:24, 46:3, and there are many more verses regarding conception/ the birth of Israel/ God’s foundation of salvation, and so on.

Isiah particularly speaks about God’s plan for salvation in the mixed prophesy about the birth of Christ and Judah’s war with God’s enemies (the nations who practice abominations). Please Read Isiah 7.

Isiah 7
1.* Now it came about in the days of Ahaz, … king of Judah, that Rezin the king of Aram and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up to Jerusalem to wage war against it, but could not conquer it.
2.* When it was reported to the house of David, saying, “The Arameans have camped in Ephraim,” his heart and the hearts of his people shook as the trees of the forest shake with the wind.
3.* Then the LORD said to Isaiah, "Go out now to meet Ahaz,…
14.* "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

I write all of the above not in order to defend abortion, but to make a point that abortion is an outcome of adultery and abomination according to the bible.

Since conception and fertilization are different but not separate, I agree that we as humans (and not Gods) should not decide whether a biological life of fetus can be terminated. Instead we should try to save it if we can. The question is how? Shall we declare Adultery Illegal? Shall we arrest those who commit adultery? In South Korea and many other parts of the world, adultery has been crime until recently.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

My understanding is being Pro-Life is the polar opposite of being Pro-Choice.

In real life people are not always as polarized as the labels attached to them. So if you take a polarized approached to the semantics the applicability to real people may be reduced.