What is the difference in Protestants being "saved" and Catholic salvation?

[Graceful_Lamb]

Which is ironic and funny since they deny having an altar.

My church does not deny having an altar.

 

[Church_Militant]

My church does not deny having an altar.

You guys don’t count in that statement.

I think that the essential difference between most n-Cs “being saved” and our view of salvation is that we know it (from the New Testament) as a lifelong process and many of them preach it as a one time event. That latter is not the teaching of the New Testament and is a gross oversimplification that causes people all manner of problems.

See the articles of mine listed in post #11
%between%

 

[Elizium23]

Would it be a sin to not believe what you wrote? I mean, really, why even try to convert people to Catholicism if anyone can go to heaven. What’s the purpose?

Yes, heaven is through Jesus Christ. He died for all human salvation. But what do we need to do in order to receive this salvation? Scripture makes it very clear. You have to believe in Jesus. I don’t think Jew, Muslim or Agnostic and others believe in Jesus. Oh, they admit he lived, but they don’t believe in him. They don’t believe him when He says he is God’s son etc. Thus, I don’t see how they can be saved?

So if what you say is Catholic doctrine, am I sinning by not believing it???

The Sacraments and the Church are the sole ordinary means of salvation, because God has bound salvation to them. IF there are other means of salvation, they are unknown to mankind, because only the Sacraments and the Church have been revealed to us.

Invincible ignorance explains how non-Catholics can be saved despite not being believers in this life.

 

[SJacob7]

The Sacraments and the Church are the sole ordinary means of salvation, because God has bound salvation to them. IF there are other means of salvation, they are unknown to mankind, because only the Sacraments and the Church have been revealed to us.

Invincible ignorance explains how non-Catholics can be saved despite not being believers in this life.

Not only the Sacraments and the Church, but also one needs to believe in Jesus Christ.

CCC. 161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. “Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’”

So I still don’t see how Jews, Muslims, etc can be saved without believing in Jesus Christ. It’s a bit confusing!

 

[patmiron]

=IGotQuestions;13185612]If Catholics are Christians what are the steps they take to receive salvation?
Protestants believe Romans 10:9 & 10. Confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and you shall be saved.

I replied once to this, but found my reply to be incomplete. Profound question warrant a profound reply; but as space is prudently limited here, I will provide a site for you to check out

http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/trent6.htm

If after reading this you ave further questions; PLEASE send me a private message and we can discuss them.

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[Elizium23]

Not only the Sacraments and the Church, but also one needs to believe in Jesus Christ.

CCC. 161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. “Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’”

So I still don’t see how Jews, Muslims, etc can be saved without believing in Jesus Christ. It’s a bit confusing!

Is There Really “No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church?”

1. There is no salvation apart from Christ and his One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Again, this is an infallible teaching and not up for debate among Catholics.

1. Those who are “invincibly” ignorant concerning the truth of #1 above will not be culpable for this lack of knowledge before God.

1. Those in the category of #2 have the real possibility of salvation even if they never come to an explicit knowledge of Christ and/or his Church.

 

[SJacob7]

Is There Really “No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church?”

Ok, it still doesn’t make sense. Why does CCC 161 state believing in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation? But in other CCC paragraphs it says otherwise. You must agree, that CCC 161 is pretty clear.

CCC. 161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. “Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’”

 

[Elizium23]

Ok, it still doesn’t make sense. Why does CCC 161 state believing in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation? But in other CCC paragraphs it says otherwise. You must agree, that CCC 161 is pretty clear.

CCC. 161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. “Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’”

Don’t prooftext the Catechism. You are too focused on one single paragraph. Look at these paragraphs, which explain it more:

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

 

[opulumpu]

My wife is Roman Catholic (48 year old cradle Catholic, Catholic grade school/high school etc.) and to say that she is poorly catechized would be an understatement. How widespread would you say this problem is in Catholicism? What is the Catholic Church doing to address this issue?

You will be amazed at how much ignorance about our faith we have in the Catholic Church. However, the problem lies mostly with us individuals; we do not put in much effort into understanding our faith. The Catholic Church is not just the Pope, Bishops, Priests and Concecrated; it includes you (if you are a Catholic) and I. What are you doing to address the problem; what am I doing to address the problem.

 

[powerofk]

My wife is Roman Catholic (48 year old cradle Catholic, Catholic grade school/high school etc.) and to say that she is poorly catechized would be an understatement. How widespread would you say this problem is in Catholicism? What is the Catholic Church doing to address this issue?

You will be amazed at how much ignorance about our faith we have in the Catholic Church. However, the problem lies mostly with us individuals; we do not put in much effort into understanding our faith. The Catholic Church is not just the Pope, Bishops, Priests and Concecrated; it includes you (if you are a Catholic) and I. What are you doing to address the problem; what am I doing to address the problem.

I would say that poor catechesis has been a problem for the Catholic Church for centuries. It’s been fairly recent in which the laity have had formal educations of any kind. There’s a reason why many older devout Catholics seemed to follow “superstitious Christianity” - in which they would “punish” their “santos” if their petitions were not granted. For the longest time, theology and deep catechesis were considered to be for the clergy only. And only clergy or religious sisters were able to teach catechism classes for those preparing for sacraments. Religious sisters would teach elementary level, and clergy would teach high school level.

In all actuality, though, today, the main fault lies not with the catechism teachers or with the catechism programs. The fault lies primarily with the home church. Most people don’t have more than a very elementary level of catechesis - just enough to have qualified to do their First Communions. And if their parents don’t make going to Mass a priority, neither will their children. Parents who faithfully bring their children to Mass, who make prayer a priority at home, make Christian living a priority, etc., are much more likely to have children who are well catechized and faithful Catholics as adults. Sure, the children could still be lured by the world and fall away, but the foundation is there, and they’re more likely to come back if they do fall away. Parents who don’t make Mass and prayer a priority will have children who don’t even know who this Jesus person is and why He’s important. It’s quite simple, actually.

 

[In_His_Grace]

Hi powerofk and opulumpu. What both of you have said goes right to the heart of the matter. The individual & the family as the basic building block of human society.

 

[KathleenGee]

yes…I look at the world’s problems, and all could be relieved with all returning to their families and their families restoration…focused on God as the center of His life…His Word, His Sacrament, His tradition.

Right now I am starting to read a Jewish rabbi teaching on proper speech…I find my Jewish clients very sober, no alcoholism reported so far…don’t waste time…very tight and mutually caring families…they fall back on many traditions of their faith and ethnicity…

 

[patmiron]

=SJacob7;13201988]Ok, it still doesn’t make sense. Why does CCC 161 state believing in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation? But in other CCC paragraphs it says otherwise. You must agree, that CCC 161 is pretty clear.

CCC. 161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. “Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’”

I have read all of the Catechisms issues in the past 20yrs or so; could you please be specific on your point of the Catechism NOT requiring belief in Jesus:shrug:

God Bless you!

Patrick

 

[Elizium23]

I have read all of the Catechisms issues in the past 20yrs or so; could you please be specific on your point of the Catechism NOT requiring belief in Jesus:shrug:

God Bless you!

Patrick

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

 

[KathleenGee]

If you look at the world today…it is so bad…and so much slaughter in the name of religion and state…and free choice…worshipping the flesh without God.

Now beginning to understand with all this bloodshed…and such subsequent distortion of man that many now don’t even want to marry and have children…that Our Lord had to be come the Sacrificial Lamb, shed His Blood and die for us…and to live within us…in the Eucharist…so we could be restored to our own selves, our humanity and that of others…that we must forgive constantly and believe irregardless that Christ stands before the heart of every person.

We must realize that true Christianity is in essence…besides loving God with all our heart, soul and mind…that if we mistreat our neighbor…we are abusing God Himself.

Christ restores our faith in God that He is present among human beings, irregardless of today’s world’s behavior and slaughter.

 

[Michael68]

Which is ironic and funny since they deny having an altar.

LOL!!! I have always thought that was hilarious!

 

[IGotQuestions]

Here my friend is both a short answer and a more detailed reply. THANKS for asking

Catholics hold and always have that Salvation is a PROCESS not a single step.

The Process is centered around the Seven Sacraments

Baptism
Eucharist
Confirmation
Penance [Confession of our sins John 20:19-23]
Marriage
Holy Orders [the priesthood extended from the time of Moses; now perfected
The Last rites

Each of which was Instituted By Christ either explicitly or implicitly Mt 16:015-19

Protestants hold very often to Once Saved Always Saved; Altar calls and the Sinners Prayer; none of which is biblically grounded when using the entire Bible.

Part of the difference is our different views of the necessity of Suffering.

Non-catholic s often take the position that Christ DID IT ALL, which is not biblical when using the entire New Testament.

Because GOD suffered so much for us Christ Himself TAUGHT that we too must expect to suffer in order to prove our love for Him.

Take Up your Cross and Follow Me

Phil.2: 8 “And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross Luke.9 :23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke.14: 7 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” Matt.5: 19 “Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. “ Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

Your question requires much further discussion but space is limited.

God Bless you!
Patrick

Thanks Patrick.
Many altar calls I saw involved music to manipulate the feelings of the ‘unsaved’ so we would feel compelled to go forward. One evangelist talked about a fellow who never went forward, and died on the way back from church! Implying he must be in Hell now.
[/quote]

 

[powerofk]

Thanks Patrick.
Many altar calls I saw involved music to manipulate the feelings of the ‘unsaved’ so we would feel compelled to go forward. One evangelist talked about a fellow who never went forward, and died on the way back from church! Implying he must be in Hell now.

Which a devout Catholic priest wouldn’t dare say, because we can’t know the state of anyone’s soul. Only God knows the true state of our souls.

Regardless, though, in Catholicism, we believe that to be “born again” simply means to be baptized. When we are baptized, we die to our old selves and become a new creation in Jesus Christ. Now, obviously, most Catholics are baptized during infancy or early childhood (which the Church still considers infancy). As such, the parents make the decision for the child that the child will follow Jesus. By doing so, the parents accept the responsibility for teaching the child about Jesus and His Church. Unfortunately, today, many parents who have taken this responsibility upon themselves have fallen short in the duty that they have undertaken. As such, we have many who have been baptized in Christ who have not heard of Him. This is actually the point of the “New Evangelization” - the knowledge that there are many who have received their sacraments as children (especially baptism) who don’t really know who Jesus is. And also, why, even though we consider baptism of infants perfectly valid (and even preferable in cases where the parents are faithful Catholics or at least attempting to be faithful Catholics), why it might be a better idea pastorally to delay the baptism of a child if the parents don’t understand their responsibilties or take their responsibilities seriously.

 

[PJM]

=Elizium23;13206465]

** Originally Posted by patmiron View Post**
I have read all of the Catechisms issues in the past 20yrs or so; could you please be specific on your point of the Catechism NOT requiring belief in Jesus

God Bless you!

Patrick

REPLY:Quote:
Originally Posted by Catechism of the Catholic Church
1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

Thank you for the additional clarity: I’m familiar with these passages. For the sake of clarity I thought it to be prudent to explain that ONLY those who for what ever God Ordained; not to make possible the otherwise NECESSARY Catholic Church and Sacramental Baptism; through NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN; are granted the possibility of salvation based on how they live their lives with charity

God Bless you my friend,

PJM [Patrick]

 

[PJM]

=IGotQuestions;13211099]Thanks Patrick.
Many altar calls I saw involved music to manipulate the feelings of the ‘unsaved’ so we would feel compelled to go forward. One evangelist talked about a fellow who never went forward, and died on the way back from church! Implying he must be in Hell now.

WOW! What some Brethren do in the name of Christ [some Catholics included] is nothing short of astounding:blush:

THANK you so very much for sharing,

Patrick [PJM]