What is the difference in Protestants being "saved" and Catholic salvation?

[boomerang]

There is a very scary doctrine that I have dubbed the “Do nothing theology”. It seems that this theology says Christ did it all and all I have to do is believe . Don’t give to the poor, don’t give water to the thirsty, don’t visit the widow or orphans. Just sit at home, read your bible and hide. I don’t accept this and neither should anyone else.

There is a lot of that going around. Do you ever read the comments on Yahoo news articles on the pope or Catholic Church? The “do nothings” come out of the woodwork, teeth bared, fangs extended, out for Catholic blood. Crazy.

 

[Techno2000]

No,it is the Jews who must keep the law to be saved. However, the Bible also says the law brought death and not life. Trying to keep the law is the opposite of faith.

eazyduzit, I have a question for you ,and others… after you become saved, the Devil throws in the Towel , as for as Temptation goes, right… I mean it would be just a big waste of time, yes or no ?

 

[JustaServant]

There is a very scary doctrine that I have dubbed the “Do nothing theology”. It seems that this theology says Christ did it all and all I have to do is believe . Don’t give to the poor, don’t give water to the thirsty, don’t visit the widow or orphans. Just sit at home, read your bible and hide. I don’t accept this and neither should anyone else.

This is a fallacy.
Just as I have never met a devout Catholic who believes they are ‘working their way to Heaven’, I have never met a devout Protestant who believes works are unimportant, all I need to do is sit on my laurels and wait for the Rapture.

 

[boomerang]

This is a fallacy.
Just as I have never met a devout Catholic who believes they are ‘working their way to Heaven’, I have never met a devout Protestant who believes works are unimportant, all I need to do is sit on my laurels and wait for the Rapture.

I have met these people, not in person, but in online forums. They truly believe they don’t have to do anything. They exist, really.

 

[JustaServant]

I have met these people, not in person, but in online forums. They truly believe they don’t have to do anything. They exist, really.

Among evangelicals I have met (in person) ‘radical grace’ Christians. They are in a very small minority.
As for the internet, it can make any small group seem much larger than they actually are.
Ask Westboro Baptist.

 

[In_His_Grace]

This is a fallacy.
Just as I have never met a devout Catholic who believes they are ‘working their way to Heaven’, I have never met a devout Protestant who believes works are unimportant, all I need to do is sit on my laurels and wait for the Rapture.

I have never met a devout Protestant who believes works are unimportant, all I need to do is sit on my laurels and wait for the Rapture.

Thank you JustaServant and God bless you.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (Eph 2:8-10)

 

[powerofk]

Among evangelicals I have met (in person) ‘radical grace’ Christians. They are in a very small minority.
As for the internet, it can make any small group seem much larger than they actually are.
Ask Westboro Baptist.

Right, because the Internet is often used as a microphone for the small but loud minority. However, when I was in college, I was asked once by a Protestant if I knew for sure if I was going to Heaven. I said, (paraphrasing - my speech isn’t as good in person as it is over the Internet), “No, Catholics believe that we can’t know if we’re going to Heaven or not.” He replied that the apostle Paul knew that he was going to Heaven, and that if one is “Saved ™”, then one knows that he/she is going to Heaven.

 

[powerofk]

Thank you JustaServant and God bless you.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (Eph 2:8-10)

Odd that it takes 140+ replies to get us here. Yes, this is what the Lutherans teach - and also what the Catholic Church teaches, pretty much verbatim. No one claims that works, in and of themselves, are salvific. It’s simply that works are a response of faith, which is the human acceptance of God’s grace. God pours out His grace on all, but faith is the acceptance of that grace. Faith compels works, which help build the Church, increasing the faith in not only the individual believer but also in the community of believers and draw more people from outside the community of believers to be drawn to the faith and accept God’s salvific grace. In addition, though God imparts His grace on all that would receive it, He allows it to be bestowed in a special way through the reception of the sacraments. It is not the “works” of the sacraments that are salvific - it is that they are special conduits of God’s grace, and by receiving the sacraments, one becomes more open to God’s grace.

 

[PJM]

=In His Grace;13222802]All Christians are saved the same way (John 3:16), both Catholic Christians and non-Catholic Christians.

While that is your teaching; it is not the complete truth.

Why for example does the Bible tell us in** Mt. 19:16-17** that in order to attain salvation ALL must obey the commandments; which by the way are categories of sins; NOT the list off all possible sin.** [1 Jn,1:6-7; 1 Jn.5:16-17 & John 20:19-23**]

AND why in Mt, 28:16-20 does Jesus command the Apostles directly and exclusively to Cf. "Go and teach the world what I have “commanded YOU” [means both taught and commanded.]

AND why bother giving [all of] the KEYS to His Kingdom to JUST Peter and his successors SEE Mt. 10: 1-8 compared to Mt. 28:16-20] Successors that Christ Personally made essentially necessary in order to fulfill the NEW Mandate.

AND why then are their thousands of differing “communions” with in the Protestant ranks?

NO my friend; there is not “total” equality between Catholics and Protestants:shrug:

Christ Himself; desiring as he had in the OT, just One God; One set of Faith believes and One Chosen People; followed with One God and a NEW Covenant; still just ONE set of acceptable [that is TRUE] faith beliefs and in and through just one church.] Please read **Eph. 4: 1-7 **for verification.

May God continue to Bless and Guide you to His Truth’s:thumbsup:

Patrick**

 

[PJM]

=zz912;13222256]1. Can those who do not love Jesus be saved?

1. How do you love Jesus?

Loving Jesus is termed our “Faith”

[1] Isaiah 43: verses 7 & 21 “[7] And every one that calleth upon my name, I have created him for my glory, I have formed him, and made him.” & [21] This people have I formed for myself, they shall shew forth my praise”
**
Can they? YES ; BUT will they… very unlikely.** Jesus is adamant in His command in **John 3: 5 **to be Baptized & Mt. 28:19-20 with water n the Name of the Trinity. ONLY an actual inability to KNOW Christ and His Church with no degree of culpability stance a chance of being saved.

[2] We LOVE Jesus by knowing ALL that He Teaches [which is the exclusive mandate given to the Catholic Church; who alone can Teach the Fullness of God’s Teachings …**. Mt. 16:15-19 & 28:16-20]; and then freely choosing to Obey and accept ALL that He Teaches.

Because the Catholic Church has been given by Jesus the Seven Sacraments which are given as a source of Grace to aid and to DIRECT us in the path of necessary perfection [John 4: 23-24], we Catholics have opportunities not granted outside of the Catholic Church.

1st KNOW

2nd Obey

3td Live Fully:thumbsup:

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[PJM]

**Originally Posted by eazyduzit **
That is NOT what I’m suggesting. The question is about salvation, not everything after that. What needs to be done to be saved is spelled out for you in Rm.10:10. "For with the heart man believes unto righteousness ; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. "
That is perfectly plain and clear to me .
Is that the only thing one must do to be saved?

When Jesus comes to bring judgment upon us, according to what will He judge us?

=zz912;13222260]Is that the only thing one must do to be saved?

When Jesus comes to bring judgment upon us, according to what will He judge us?

MY COMMENTS: PJM

Your reply is a GREAT leading question:thumbsup:

What so many non-catholics seem not to grap; because its not taught to them

**Is that there exist an infallible rule for right understanding on the bible:

Never -Ever
Can, may, or Does
One verse, passage or teaching
HAVE the power or authority to
make Void; invalidate or override another
verse, passage or teaching.

Were this even the slightest possibility [Its NOT!] it would render the buble as useless to teach one God’s One True Faith**

**2 Tim 3:16-17 **“All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.”

Mt 16:18-19 “** And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon [YOU Peter] this rock I will build my church,[singular] and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. **And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven”

Jn 3: 5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Mt. 19:16-17 And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? [17] Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

My friend there is a GREAT deal more that we can share in God’s TRUTH with you, but space is limited.

Clearly your position does not align FULLY with God’s Word…PRAY about it.

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

=benhur;13219077]Listen to the site I posted, #122, on his conversion. Actually he states that the new birth is not based on emotions or feelings but on the Word of God. Having said that, emotions are ok especially if they are based on real God induced realities. I mean having the scales removed from your eyes and seeing for the first time is a reality. I would think it natural that the real event would come with feelings and emotions. But I understand some are more dramatic than others. I would also say it is ok to check on oneself if they do not sense they have a testimony, a before and after. You certainly seem to say you have a before and after, but do not want to asses it anymore than what you say it was. It is kind of sacred ground, yours. I would hope all our convinced in themselves and are not afraid of looking at others fire for checking on our own fire or rebirth reality.
Sorry to hear that but apparently His grace is sufficient , yet Lord help you heal. Hey, we peaked at 30 years old, physically that is. Not easy to face our physical destiny. Part of me is starting to say we are closing in on the finish line yet another hopes it will be ok for a good chunk of time.
There are many possibilities.The more I think about it maybe you have a point. It fits what I said about a personal encounter with the Savior. Yet, I will not deny the doctrinal/practice issues that may facilitate the "impersonal, bucreautic ways’’.

Thank you for not taking offense in bringing the topic up (Catholics going Protestant) Certainly as JMM posted (#112), a bit defensively I think, it goes both ways . I think you see that is not my point.
We have same problem with "mega churches’. Some do exactly what you suggest, home churches or satellites.The earliest church did it.
Not sure on this one. Listen to that testimony and his words seemed genuine and were the old true and steady words. So on one hand we preach Christ crucified, and yet Paul adapted to what was around him with his preaching at Mar’s Hill. “I become all things to all men so that some might be saved”.Hopefully that is what Pope meant.
At least you are humble enough to admit it and not just "defend’’ . We all have glass house churches (good, bad and ugly being visible). Thankfully, a Christian in the end (and beginning), ultimately follows Christ. God is true.

Blessings

I’m a bot short on time today; but wish to point out while the Catholic scandals are indefensible; because the RCC remains the BULLSEYE on the target of the Secular Press; we get a lot more BAD PRESS than anyone else.

That is NOT to excuse the VERY Sinfukl actions of the FEW who are generating the Bad Presss, We have over 1 BILLION Catholics World wide. There ARE going to be some VERY bad examples of Christ in that mix

But we ought not over look Mt 16:19 where JESUS say’s “MY CHURCH” [singular] & the "Gates of Hell shall NOT prevail against HER [again singular]

There is dear friend; Just One True God; who has, had and akways ill have JUST One set of TRUE faith beliefs [even God can’t do anything but that]; and desired Just oen Church which is exactly what He desired and set up:

READ please

Eph. 4: 1-7 [all singular tense]
Mt. 10:1-8
Mt. 16:15-19
John 17:11-26
Mt. 28:16-20

With a 2,000 year history dating back to the Apostles themselves; there is undoubtedly some TRASH in our history; BUT it is GREATLY overshadowed by ALL of the Good the Catholic Church has accompliswd and continues to accomplish.

God Bless you!

Patrick

 

[In_His_Grace]

Odd that it takes 140+ replies to get us here. Yes, this is what the Lutherans teach - and also what the Catholic Church teaches, pretty much verbatim. No one claims that works, in and of themselves, are salvific. It’s simply that works are a response of faith, which is the human acceptance of God’s grace. God pours out His grace on all, but faith is the acceptance of that grace. Faith compels works, which help build the Church, increasing the faith in not only the individual believer but also in the community of believers and draw more people from outside the community of believers to be drawn to the faith and accept God’s salvific grace. In addition, though God imparts His grace on all that would receive it, He allows it to be bestowed in a special way through the reception of the sacraments. It is not the “works” of the sacraments that are salvific - it is that they are special conduits of God’s grace, and by receiving the sacraments, one becomes more open to God’s grace.

I appreciate your response powerofk. We both know that Lutherans and Catholics are light years apart regarding the issues of justification and sanctification (i.e. Soteriology) but we do hold to many commonalities. I can honestly say that there is so much that I treasure in Catholicism. Dialogue is important, the Protestant Reformation continues on.

pax

 

[In_His_Grace]

While that is your teaching; it is not the complete truth.

Why for example does the Bible tell us in** Mt. 19:16-17** that in order to attain salvation ALL must obey the commandments; which by the way are categories of sins; NOT the list off all possible sin.** [1 Jn,1:6-7; 1 Jn.5:16-17 & John 20:19-23**]

AND why in Mt, 28:16-20 does Jesus command the Apostles directly and exclusively to Cf. "Go and teach the world what I have “commanded YOU” [means both taught and commanded.]

AND why bother giving [all of] the KEYS to His Kingdom to JUST Peter and his successors SEE Mt. 10: 1-8 compared to Mt. 28:16-20**] Successors that Christ Personally made essentially necessary in order to fulfill the NEW Mandate.

AND why then are their thousands of differing “communions” with in the Protestant ranks?

NO my friend; there is not “total” equality between Catholics and Protestants:shrug:

Christ Himself; desiring as he had in the OT, just One God; One set of Faith believes and One Chosen People; followed with One God and a NEW Covenant; still just ONE set of acceptable [that is TRUE] faith beliefs and in and through just one church.] Please read **Eph. 4: 1-7 **for verification.

May God continue to Bless and Guide you to His Truth’s:thumbsup:

Patrick

Yes, one church Patrick. All Christians are part of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.

God bless you and give you His peace.

 

[Porknpie]

Yes, one church Patrick. All Christians are part of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.

God bless you and give you His peace.

All Christians are part of the Church through baptism, but not perfectly united for not all profess this One Faith. This was an issue very early on as St. Cyprian states:

”Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” Cyprian, To Florentius, Epistle 66/67 (A.D. 254).

And some stray much, not understanding the completeness of this faith that the apostles passed down.

That baptism is symbolic only of one’s faith, and not salvific is just one example of error.

It contradicts both scripture itself and that One Apostolic faith.

 

[In_His_Grace]

All Christians are part of the Church through baptism, but not perfectly united for not all profess this One Faith. This was an issue very early on as St. Cyprian states:

”Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” Cyprian, To Florentius, Epistle 66/67 (A.D. 254).

And some stray much, not understanding the completeness of this faith that the apostles passed down.

That baptism is symbolic only of one’s faith, and not salvific is just one example of error.

It contradicts both scripture itself and that One Apostolic faith.

Obviously we have different concepts of ecclesiology which is to be expected. Please cite for me one apostolic father making mention of papal infallibility.

Thanks

 

[zz912]

Obviously we have different concepts of ecclesiology which is to be expected. Please cite for me one apostolic father making mention of papal infallibility.

Thanks

Cyprian of Carthage

“Would the heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come?” (Letters 59 [55], 14).

Augustine

“Rome has spoken; the case is concluded” (Sermons 131, 10).

“Number the bishops from **the See of Peter **itself. And in that order of Fathers see who has succeeded whom. That is the rock against which the gates of Hell do not prevail.” (Psalm Against the Party of Donatus 18)

 

[In_His_Grace]

Cyprian of Carthage

“Would the heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come?” (Letters 59 [55], 14).

Augustine

“Rome has spoken; the case is concluded” (Sermons 131, 10).

“Number the bishops from **the See of Peter **itself. And in that order of Fathers see who has succeeded whom. That is the rock against which the gates of Hell do not prevail.” (Psalm Against the Party of Donatus 18)

Apostolic Fathers (e.g. St. Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, St. Polycarp of Smyrna, etc.)???

 

[benhur]

Cyprian of Carthage

“Would the heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come?” (Letters 59 [55], 14).

Is this the same Cyprian who chastized the pope for being wrong on baptisms and several other things (lapsed Christians )?

I read that Cyprian use the “seat of Peter” as symbolic for church unity, that is the universal church with its episcopacy not necessarily the specific bishop of Rome. For instance Cyprian considered himself to be the “chair of peter” in Carthage. for he was their bishop.( and the church is founded on the bishops0

Augustine

“Rome has spoken; the case is concluded” (Sermons 131, 10).

Says nothing of infallibility but of final authority.

Blessings

 

[eazyduzit]

When Jesus comes to bring judgment upon us, according to what will He judge us?

MY COMMENTS: PJM

Your reply is a GREAT leading question:thumbsup:

What so many non-catholics seem not to grap; because its not taught to them

**Is that there exist an infallible rule for right understanding on the bible:

Never -Ever
Can, may, or Does
One verse, passage or teaching
HAVE the power or authority to
make Void; invalidate or override another
verse, passage or teaching.

Were this even the slightest possibility [Its NOT!] it would render the buble as useless to teach one God’s One True Faith**

**2 Tim 3:16-17 **“All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.”

Mt 16:18-19 “** And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon [YOU Peter] this rock I will build my church,[singular] and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to the**e the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven”

Jn 3: 5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Mt. 19:16-17 And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? [17] Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

My friend there is a GREAT deal more that we can share in God’s TRUTH with you, but space is limited.

Clearly your position does not align FULLY with God’s Word…PRAY about it.

God Bless you,

Patrick

I will demonstrate that my faith aligns with scripture.
The first point you have overlooked is baptism is not mentioned in the Nicodemus discourse. V.5 could just as legitimately be translated." Born of water even the spirit" as some versions have it. Then we continue down to v.14 were Jesus is still speaking to Nicodemus, it reads, And as Moses lifted up the serpent is the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:" The bronze serpent was lifted up on a pole so that anyone who looked on it would be healed. This was a symbol and a type of how Jesus was to be lifted up for our salvation, which leads to v.15 that in turn explains what anyone must do to be saved, and agrees perfectly with v.40 in ch6 "…everyone which seeth the Son,and believeth on Him,may have everlasting life. This is Jesus own explanation to Nicodemus of what he has said.

Everything must agree in a sound interpretation. Then look at 1Jn. 5:13 in which John is assuring his church concerning their salvation,saying: “These things have I WRITTEN unto you that you believe on the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, and this life is in His Son.” Nowhere in the letter is baptism mentioned.

I know that i have eternal life according to the harmony of scripture.

But thanks for your help anyway,

Eazy