What is the difference in Protestants being "saved" and Catholic salvation?

[benhur]

All Christians are part of the Church through baptism, but not perfectly united for not all profess this One Faith. This was an issue very early on as St. Cyprian states:

”Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” Cyprian, To Florentius, Epistle 66/67 (A.D. 254).

And some stray much, not understanding the completeness of this faith that the apostles passed down.

That baptism is symbolic only of one’s faith, and not salvific is just one example of error.

It contradicts both scripture itself and that One Apostolic faith.

HiPp,

Did not some Catholic bishops in Germany become Lutheran bishops, begging the question which bishop is one to follow if not the one in their diocese ?

 

[Porknpie]

Obviously we have different concepts of ecclesiology which is to be expected. Please cite for me one apostolic father making mention of papal infallibility.

Thanks

Grace,

You believe that there not being an apostolic father making an affirmative declaration in writing is proof that the Church has error’d, despite those fathers that later wrote differently?

What if we apply this reasoning to the canon of NT scripture?

Shouldn’t the reasoning be consistent: that for a theological point to be true, an apostolic father must have explicitly said so? Despite there being no contradiction, silence is not good enough?

 

[eazyduzit]

There is a very scary doctrine that I have dubbed the “Do nothing theology”. It seems that this theology says Christ did it all and all I have to do is believe . Don’t give to the poor, don’t give water to the thirsty, don’t visit the widow or orphans. Just sit at home, read your bible and hide. I don’t accept this and neither should anyone else.

My friend you have greatly missed this biblical principle. Faith is not at all a do nothing theology. Please. Read Jn.6:28,29. The Apostles, just like you, my brother, asked Jesus what work they should do. Jesus answered that the work of God is to believe on Him. This is so simple and straightforward that I’m afraid many miss it. The Bible says that Jesus became poor that we might be rich. Heb.4 explains that there is a REST to the people of God, and we should labor to enter into it, and not miss it as the ancient Hebrews did. So don’t try to use them as your example. Look at the “Hall of Faith” in Heb.11. God is pleased by faith. Faith means we accept Jesus’ work on our behalf.

 

[Techno2000]

God is pleased by faith. Faith means we accept Jesus’ work on our behalf.

So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

James 2:17

 

[KathleenGee]

Great responses from different traditions…

All I can do beyond all is to place myself in Christ’s mercy…and the same for all other believers…we trust in Christ’s mercy and we extend His mercy.

Finally, we Catholics look to Scripture as a whole…every word and phrase together…because the Word of God is Christ…Logos, the Living Word…it is imperative we reflect on Him and His Word and to follow Him in the entirety of of His Word, not stand alone phrases.

 

[Porknpie]

HiPp,

Did not some Catholic bishops in Germany become Lutheran bishops, begging the question which bishop is one to follow if not the one in their diocese ?

Hi Ben,

Not knowledgeable on the circumstances you mention but if my Bishop left our diocese and became Lutheran, I wouldn’t follow him as I would know he was disobedient to the Church and his vows. I’d follow his replacement.

I think this is largely true of protestants and pastoral changes in their denominations as well.

PnP

 

[zz912]

Is this the same Cyprian who chastized the pope for being wrong on baptisms and several other things (lapsed Christians )?

I read that Cyprian use the “seat of Peter” as symbolic for church unity, that is the universal church with its episcopacy not necessarily the specific bishop of Rome. For instance Cyprian considered himself to be the “chair of peter” in Carthage. for he was their bishop.( and the church is founded on the bishops)

You’ll have to cite the chastising your are referencing. I’m not sure what you are referencing to. And yes, a bishop, in UNION with the Pope, is the chair of peter in his diocese. Now a bishop can be in or out of union with the Pope. But the Pope, and his seat, will never issue forth error. That’s what he meant and not dancing around it can avoid that he clearly taught papal infallibility.

Says nothing of infallibility but of final authority

.

You conveniently ignored the second quote of Augustine, which was reinforced by the first quote which you did address.

 

[zz912]

My friend you have greatly missed this biblical principle. Faith is not at all a do nothing theology. Please. Read Jn.6:28,29. The Apostles, just like you, my brother, asked Jesus what work they should do. Jesus answered that the work of God is to believe on Him. This is so simple and straightforward that I’m afraid many miss it. The Bible says that Jesus became poor that we might be rich. Heb.4 explains that there is a REST to the people of God, and we should labor to enter into it, and not miss it as the ancient Hebrews did. So don’t try to use them as your example. Look at the “Hall of Faith” in Heb.11. God is pleased by faith. Faith means we accept Jesus’ work on our behalf.

So have faith, but you don’t have to do anything. Sounds like yours is a do-nothing theology.

 

[In_His_Grace]

Grace,

You believe that there not being an apostolic father making an affirmative declaration in writing is proof that the Church has error’d, despite those fathers that later wrote differently?

What if we apply this reasoning to the canon of NT scripture?

Shouldn’t the reasoning be consistent: that for a theological point to be true, an apostolic father must have explicitly said so? Despite there being no contradiction, silence is not good enough?

Hi Porknpie,

I tried to convince myself from scripture and history that the Catholic Church is what she claims to be for 2 years, really wanted to believe this to be true but remain unconvinced based mainly on Holy Writ.

Blessings

 

[eazyduzit]

So have faith, but you don’t have to do anything. Sounds like yours is a do-nothing theology.

Exactly right bro, salvation is not a do it yourself deal. Only Jesus is qualified. You need to trust Him. This is the reason He had to become a man like us . x

 

[Son_of_Niall]

Exactly right bro, salvation is not a do it yourself deal. Only Jesus is qualified. You need to trust Him. This is the reason He had to become a man like us . x

You are aware this:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=493312
Right?

 

[spedteacherita]

You are aware this:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=493312
Right?

I didn’t take Eazy’s answer as an attempt to proselytize but as a continuing clarification of his/her point about salvation in this debate. As a protestant, my answers could be taken as trying to proselytize because of how I understand a certain dogma. Maybe I’m wrong.

I’ve been enjoying the debate (as a lurker).

God bless!

Rita

 

[Lnam22]

From a Lutheran standpoint , we are totally incapable of saving ourselves, Jesus satisfaction for our sins by dying and rising made atonement for sin and he offers salvation . justification is God s grace alone ( unearned resistible favor) manifest in the virgin birth , death on the cross and resurrection of Jesus received through faith alone ( a gift from God created in people’s hearts by the Holy Spirit by the Word and the Sacraments , a passive and personal knowledge of , belief in , acceptance of , and trust in the Gospel , the instrument that receives grace. ) in the atonement of Jesus . one is only justified when they receive the Gospel of Jesus not before . It is Monergistic , forensic , for whosoever will , through the means of grace and resistible .
As for works they are after justification, they are in sanctification, the natural result of faith , there absence would demonstrate that faith is absent , always they have there origin in God , not in human striving , we are commanded to obey the more law , and freely serve Christ and others .
One can lose salvation, but Jesus can save them .
Sactification continues until the second coming of Jesus and the resurrection of all in the future. The unbelieving will be cast into hell for eternity . The saved go into the new Heaven and Earth .
As a sorta off topic , I’m asking for prayers for my family , many of whom aren’t saved , I’m trying to witness to them , but it’s not easy .

If it’s only theoretically possible to lose your salvation, why did St. Paul write so many letters to fellow Christians commending them to continue to work out their salvation in fear and trembling? Why write the letters at all? If it’s only theoretical to lose our salvation, why is he adamant about how many different sins can damn us? Why did he say that he was unsure about his own salvation?

It never ceases to amaze me that, despite the documents from Vatican II and the official Church teachings on those documents vis a vis the subject of salvation, and despite even Pope Francis the First’s statements since his election, there are still Roman Catholics who insist that Protestants are denied salvation. Of course, on the other side, there are Protestants who insist that Roman Catholics are denied salvation, I believe both are equally in error and grievously so.

Which a devout Catholic priest wouldn’t dare say, because we can’t know the state of anyone’s soul. Only God knows the true state of our souls.

Regardless, though, in Catholicism, we believe that to be “born again” simply means to be baptized. When we are baptized, we die to our old selves and become a new creation in Jesus Christ. Now, obviously, most Catholics are baptized during infancy or early childhood (which the Church still considers infancy). As such, the parents make the decision for the child that the child will follow Jesus. By doing so, the parents accept the responsibility for teaching the child about Jesus and His Church. Unfortunately, today, many parents who have taken this responsibility upon themselves have fallen short in the duty that they have undertaken. As such, we have many who have been baptized in Christ who have not heard of Him. This is actually the point of the “New Evangelization” - the knowledge that there are many who have received their sacraments as children (especially baptism) who don’t really know who Jesus is. And also, why, even though we consider baptism of infants perfectly valid (and even preferable in cases where the parents are faithful Catholics or at least attempting to be faithful Catholics), why it might be a better idea pastorally to delay the baptism of a child if the parents don’t understand their responsibilties or take their responsibilities seriously.

How about one proclaims a Christ who puts you in the Body (church), and one proclaims a church that puts you in Christ.

What are all the conditions for salvation according to Scripture?

Then did St. Paul deceive the man in Acts 16:30 who asked “What must I do to be saved?” He did not say “Take up your cross.”

Is the Bible wrong when it declares that salvation is"…not of works lest any man should boast." Eph2:9?

Is that the only thing one must do to be saved?

When Jesus comes to bring judgment upon us, according to what will He judge us?/Q

I read the entire thread and intended on commenting on some points; however, I have decided against doing that. Instead, I just want to remind all of the members posting here of something that should scare the pants off virtually everyone, i.e., that throughout all the posts, no one apparently has referred to the gospel Paul preached (I Cor. 15:1-4.)
And that Paul himself stated in Romans 2:16–" In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

It is not by “another gospel” nor any denomination, but by Paul’s gospel given him by Christ that we will be judged as to eternal life or eternal separation from God.
Gal.2:20
Romans 16:25,26
Eph. 1:13
Eph. 2:8,9

 

[Techno2000]

Exactly right bro, salvation is not a do it yourself deal. Only Jesus is qualified. You need to trust Him. This is the reason He had to become a man like us . x

eazyduzit, Teachers believe in Education , but what if they didn’t go out, and actually teach what would happen ?

 

[zz912]

Exactly right bro, salvation is not a do it yourself deal. Only Jesus is qualified. You need to trust Him. This is the reason He had to become a man like us . x

I do trust Him, have no idea where you got the idea otherwise.

1. Is it your understanding that the Catholic Church teaches that we can save ourselves?
2. What is required of us to be saved?
3. When Jesus judges us, what will His judgment be based upon?

 

[JustaServant]

I didn’t take Eazy’s answer as an attempt to proselytize but as a continuing clarification of his/her point about salvation in this debate. As a protestant, my answers could be taken as trying to proselytize because of how I understand a certain dogma. Maybe I’m wrong.

I’ve been enjoying the debate (as a lurker).

God bless!

Rita

You need to trust Him

…is teetering very much on the edge.

 

[spedteacherita]

…is teetering very much on the edge.

I see that now…thanks for clarifying…

Rita

 

[Porknpie]

Hi Porknpie,

I tried to convince myself from scripture and history that the Catholic Church is what she claims to be for 2 years, really wanted to believe this to be true but remain unconvinced based mainly on Holy Writ.

Blessings

Grace -

Based on your understanding of history, when did the Catholic Church depart from what it claims to be?

PnP

 

[eazyduzit]

…is teetering very much on the edge.

Excuse me very much. I did not mean to be personal. The “you” was meant to be collective as in "you-all or better yet “we” should have been used.

 

[eazyduzit]

I do trust Him, have no idea where you got the idea otherwise.

1. Is it your understanding that the Catholic Church teaches that we can save ourselves?
2. What is required of us to be saved?
3. When Jesus judges us, what will His judgment be based upon?

What gave me the idea is your accusation that i am embracing a “Do nothing” soteriology. It is the scripture that implies that it must either of works or of faith (Rm.11:6),not a mixture. Jn.6:29 tells me that faith itself in the work lc God.

1.From much study of this forum it seems like Catholics believe that their merit and the merit of the saints play a part or count towards one’s righteousness, depending on who you ask. No, I don’t think Catholics believe they’re saving themselves, but many seem to think it’s a cooperative effort.
Faith alone means I am trusting in the finished work of Christ alone as my righteousness. There maybe a certain amount of risk taking to this, bjt it expresses confidence in Christ and His promises. I have confidence that He alone is the solid rock. I do not see, but i walk by faith.

2.The requirement for salvation is purposely simple,so that everyone is able and no one could make the complaint that it was too difficult for them. True repentance and trust in Christ is all that God requires. However,ones heart must be right. If you were to hold an unforgiveness against someone, you will not be forgiven by God.

3.God’s judgement is based on His righteousness. He will even judge every idle word that men speak. However, the sins of believers have already been judged at the cross. God cannot judge them again. However, our works will be judged amd i believe many will be disappointed because their work although good,was not authored by God. There needs to be no “particular judgment” at death since it has already been established whose you are even in life. In life, a person is owned either by God or by Satan. At death, either the angels or the devils will come to claim their own. You have no choice in the matter then.