Yes, Peter was first amongst equals. All the apostles shepherded and fed, and that beyond each other. All the apostles were commissioned equally later on in the gospels. All the apostles, twelve, are our foundation , as written in Revelations. But yes Peter was a leader for sure but there is poor evidence, in my opinion, of any “head bishop” succession in scripture and the earliest history, but this is another thread rc.
Please support this claim. When did God declare it and in what form? Could you cite when exactly when and how the letter of Hebrews was publicly declared to be God’s word by God? And please cite this for the other 26 books of the New Testament.
You are right that authority is a big key. It is fundamental. Will you submit to the authority of the Apostles that was handed on to the bishops of today? Or will you break away from them and the authority Jesus gave?
Well let’s look at the effects. In the 500 years of the Protestant Revolt, eventually every single one of the doctrines of the Christian faith has been questioned or denied by some denomination of the Protestant world. Every single one, including the divinity of Jesus and the Trinity.
Is that why Jesus said to listen to the Church? Is that why the Bible says the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth? Because it’s artificial?
Then you will no doubt become Mormon, correct? If there’s a group that bears more good fruit than them, I have yet to see it? They are devoted to family, perform many good works, try their best to follow God, and live out Christian lives. But I’m betting their is some excuse you will claim why they are obviously in error, so this rule above doesn’t apply (conveniently).
So he has some good fruit, so he’s obviously on the right track, but the Catholic Church is not, even though it has much more good fruit. Convenient.
No, there’s not. Jesus, the Word, has not made a public revelation to you personally. So everything you know about Him comes from others. So who is accurately and truthfully telling you about Him? Even the Bible, which you will claim to be objective, relies upon the Catholic Church to tell you that it is the word of God.
So everyone in the Christian faith has exactly the same authority?
How were covenants in the Bible expressed? Did they come through everyone, or were certain people given authority in each covenant?
Can you give an example from the Bible where the individuals were allowed to determine what doctrines were correct and which ones were not? Were Christians bound by the declaration the Apostles made or not?
Easy, we compare what they preach against what the Church teaches. If it is in conformity, it is true. If it is not, it is in error. Billy Graham had much that he preached that was true, but he did have some serious error as well. There was very little of Jones that was true.
Quite the opposite. Even if a bishop were to teach us something, if it is contrary to what the Church teaches, then it is false.
You’ve got this completely backwards. Peter is showing humility in his letter, but the fact that he is writing a letter to the other bishops shows he has authority. Otherwise he couldn’t be writing the letter giving them instructions. Equals don’t give instructions and commands to equals. He is exercising his authority to instruct them. He is strengthening them as Jesus commanded.Well and good except that Peter himself affirms in his apostolic letter to his fellow elders that
he is an an elder the same as they are, not more equal, but just equal. Who’s interpretation should I accept? Yours or Peter’s? Methinks Peter would know just a little better than we.
Alternate sources, like the Table of Contents of your Bible? Since you look to alternate sources for your revelation, this means you are in serious error and need to close up shop, correct? When are you closing your church and coming back home?
The Bible tells ABOUT the covenants God has made with man. It is NOT the covenant. The Body and Blood of Jesus is the New Covenant.
The Bible says differently.
Jesus seems to disagree with you. He thinks Christians are the light in the world, and His Church is the city on a hill shining light to the world.
Christians are led by His Church, by the shepherds He gives.
You can’t know Jesus by remaining in His Church?
So the table of contents in your bible is unreliable? How is your bible reliable then?
Did Jesus say they had it wrong? Or did He say they were hypocrites and didn’t live out their own teachings?
Really?! What about Mark 2:5? Jesus saw “their” faith - the faith of those who were carrying the paralytic. And, when He saw “their” faith, He said to the paralytic, “My son, your sins are forgiven.”
Great point.
Right. I would only add that their customs were not initiated out of love. They did not desire the salvation of others, but enjoyed the false security that their positions made them worthy. But not all, of course.
If everything else is unreliable except the Bible, where does it say so in the Bible. How do you know the Bible is reliable to begin with; how do you know that nothing else besides the Bible is reliable. You need an external source to the Bible to validate the reliability of the Bible; I am sure you will not claim God or the Holy Spirit wrote the Bible, bound it up and sent it down to mankind. Here is an anology: Suppose I wrote a fantastic book about life on a far away planet that you do not know exists. Will you accept my book as a reliable account of life on such a planet or that such a planet even exists? I do not think you will, without first having complete confidence and thrust in me, the guy who put the book together. How can you accept the reliability of the Bible, which (for the sake of discussion) may be a fictional story without having complete confidence and thrust in the Catholic Church that put the Bible together.
So there you go.
I never said we “should not be able to know”.
Indeed.
I remember getting into a discussion with my MIL one day about reincarnation. She said there was reincarnation in the Bible. I said, “no, there isn’t”. She was genuinely perplexed. It led to a longer discussion of her religious education at Catholic grade school. It was shocking how little there was. And this was rampant decades and decades ago.
Almost any time I hear someone make a claim about the Catholic faith that is wrong, many times they’ll follow it up with “I went to XX of years of Catholic education, so I know what I’m talking about”. It’s a sure sign they don’t have the first clue.
No where.
Well, as far as “reliability”, we can simply look at it as a historical document, using the same methods we use for any ancient text, and see that it’s “reliable”.
As much as they have what was “authored” by God.
There certainly was when the Lord spoke of how to deal with brethren faulting one another.
Did the Bereans just put all discernment aside when an apostolic message came to them ? Acts 17:11
The apostles did not override free will and individual conscience. It was quite a personal thing to hear and believe. The attitude is "see for yourself’, not just do as I say.