What is the Eastern Orthodox view of the Catholic Church?

[Randy_Carson]

Capitulation in degrees against the error of western culture. For example:

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/11/homosexual-marriage-how-catholics-lost.html

You cite a sedevacantist blog as evidence?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Capitulation in degrees against the error of western culture. For example:

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/11/homosexual-marriage-how-catholics-lost.html

A Traditionalist blog? Or sedevacantist?

C’mon…

 

[Nine_Two]

A Traditionalist blog? Or sedevacantist?

C’mon…

Given that one of their contributers is a member of FSSP, it is safe to say they aren’t sedevacantist. Dismissing someone’s message because they are traditionalist would only seem to lend wait to the accusation that has been leveled against your church.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Given that one of their contributers is a member of FSSP, it is safe to say they aren’t sedevacantist. Dismissing someone’s message because they are traditionalist would only seem to lend wait to the accusation that has been leveled against your church.

So, Fr. John cites liberal, feminist nuns against the Church while chrisb cites conservative Traditionalists against the Church.

We must be doing something right.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Good point. Some of us Catholics need to be reminded about that every so often, when we’re tempted to get into the how-dare-they-not-recognize-our-sacraments mode.

Well said.

It makes no more sense for us Catholics to take offense at Orthodox denial of or skepticism about our Sacraments than it does for Anglican Christians to take offense at the official Catholic position’s stating that Anglican Sacraments are invalid (except baptism and Matrimony, of course).

Each church has a right to its position, and openness on one side in no way binds another church to adopt an equally palatable position with respect to other churches.

It doesn’t bother me what Orthodox Christians think of our Sacraments. I’m glad I’m Catholic, I know our Sacraments are valid/with grace, and I know Orthodox Holy Mysteries are too. So others can believe what they want, and it’s no cause for offense.

Same goes for closed Communion. I can’t receive at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, and to enforce that rule is absolutely the right of the Orthodox Church. I am not entitled to their Holy Eucharist any more than a Protestant is entitled to my church’s.

 

[Nine_Two]

It doesn’t bother me what Orthodox Christians think of our Sacraments. I’m glad I’m Catholic, I know our Sacraments are valid/with grace, and I know Orthodox Holy Mysteries are too. So others can believe what they want, and it’s no cause for offense.

I wish this opinion were more widespread. I honestly don’t understand what our stance on these things has to do with others practicing the Catholic faith.

 

[Protestor]

Everyone who post about eastern orthodox in the non catholic section I hope you know that there is a whole section for this. I wish protestants could get a whole section instead of being lumped in with non christians.

 

[RyanBlack]

No, there is not an Eastern Orthodox subforum here. There is an Eastern Catholicism subforum.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Since the Orthodox are neither Roman Catholic nor Eastern Catholic, this seems as good a place as any to discuss Orthodoxy.

 

[dzheremi]

I frankly don’t see how it matters which subforum we post on. The attitudes encountered are largely invariant, with a few very welcome exceptions (Fonebone, Jharek, RyanBlack, etc). It is probably sufficient to say that a Roman Catholic board (any Roman Catholic board; I don’t mean to single out CAF, which is better than some others I’ve seen) is not really the best place to openly and honestly discuss Orthodoxy and/or its differences with the Roman communion, in the same way that an Orthodox board is not the best place to discuss Catholicism.

I’ve long thought this forum (and all similar forums) would be greatly improved by having a “converts” section, ideally with sub-forums for converts to and from the church it is advocating. I understand why that doesn’t happen (who would want to pay for bandwith for apostates to talk about their apostasy?), but I also think it might cut down on some of the misdirected/misinformed apologetics we see from RCs who address Orthodox, and vice-versa. I have read many a Catholic Answers tract, and many of them describe a thing they call “Orthodoxy” that bears essentially no relation to anything I’ve experienced since joining the Orthodox Church some two and a half years ago. If there were a place for those who are practicing a given tradition to talk about it openly and honestly from their own viewpoints, including reasons why they find it preferable to their previous faith tradition, it would make better Catholic apologists, better/more open and honest discussions between RC and non-RC folk, and an overall healthier environment. I truly do believe that we have a lot that we could learn from each other, even as we continue to disagree on central points of theology and ecclesiology, but the current format and/or environment stifles this a bit because Orthodox know that there are some things that we must be careful when broaching (or avoid entirely), given how quickly non-Catholics can find themselves under moderation for being honest and open about our disagreements, even in the context of topics that are explicitly about our differences.

Ahhh, the world that could be but isn’t…

 

[Nine_Two]

No, there is not an Eastern Orthodox subforum here. There is an Eastern Catholicism subforum.

We all look alike.

 

[ronyodish]

I truly do believe that we have a lot that we could learn from each other, even as we continue to disagree on central points of theology and ecclesiology, but the current format and/or environment stifles this a bit because Orthodox know that there are some things that we must be careful when broaching (or avoid entirely), given how quickly non-Catholics can find themselves under moderation for being honest and open about our disagreements, even in the context of topics that are explicitly about our differences.

dzheremi,

Folks can get in trouble with the moderators here not because they are “honest and open about our disagreements”, but because they tend to push the limits of the rules of these forums, thinking that they can get away with being overtly uncharitable, or abusive in some cases. This holds true for not just the non-Catholics, but for Catholics as well.

If folks are charitable in their discussions, even during strong disagreements, then there isn’t anything to worry about, as far as, one’s membership here.

God bless,

Rony

 

[dzheremi]

Rony,

You’d have to be completely daft if you’d think I’m going to get into a discussion on all the different perspectives that can be found here among Catholics and non-Catholics regarding moderation of this website. Suffice it to say I recognize your perspective and find it to be in accord with the rules as written. Good. That bodes well for you here, and long may you continue to enjoy posting among like-minded folks.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Well said.

It makes no more sense for us Catholics to take offense at Orthodox denial of or skepticism about our Sacraments than it does for Anglican Christians to take offense at the official Catholic position’s stating that Anglican Sacraments are invalid (except baptism and Matrimony, of course).

Each church has a right to its position, and openness on one side in no way binds another church to adopt an equally palatable position with respect to other churches.

It doesn’t bother me what Orthodox Christians think of our Sacraments. I’m glad I’m Catholic, I know our Sacraments are valid/with grace, and I know Orthodox Holy Mysteries are too. So others can believe what they want, and it’s no cause for offense.

Same goes for closed Communion. I can’t receive at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, and to enforce that rule is absolutely the right of the Orthodox Church. I am not entitled to their Holy Eucharist any more than a Protestant is entitled to my church’s.

 

[Peter_J]

I frankly don’t see how it matters which subforum we post on. The attitudes encountered are largely invariant, with a few very welcome exceptions (Fonebone, Jharek, RyanBlack, etc). It is probably sufficient to say that a Roman Catholic board (any Roman Catholic board; I don’t mean to single out CAF, which is better than some others I’ve seen) is not really the best place to openly and honestly discuss Orthodoxy and/or its differences with the Roman communion, in the same way that an Orthodox board is not the best place to discuss Catholicism.

I’ve long thought this forum (and all similar forums) would be greatly improved by having a “converts” section, ideally with sub-forums for converts to and from the church it is advocating. I understand why that doesn’t happen (who would want to pay for bandwith for apostates to talk about their apostasy?), but I also think it might cut down on some of the misdirected/misinformed apologetics we see from RCs who address Orthodox, and vice-versa. I have read many a Catholic Answers tract, and many of them describe a thing they call “Orthodoxy” that bears essentially no relation to anything I’ve experienced since joining the Orthodox Church some two and a half years ago. If there were a place for those who are practicing a given tradition to talk about it openly and honestly from their own viewpoints, including reasons why they find it preferable to their previous faith tradition, it would make better Catholic apologists, better/more open and honest discussions between RC and non-RC folk, and an overall healthier environment. I truly do believe that we have a lot that we could learn from each other, even as we continue to disagree on central points of theology and ecclesiology, but the current format and/or environment stifles this a bit because Orthodox know that there are some things that we must be careful when broaching (or avoid entirely), given how quickly non-Catholics can find themselves under moderation for being honest and open about our disagreements, even in the context of topics that are explicitly about our differences.

Ahhh, the world that could be but isn’t…

To throw in my :twocents:, regarding the possibility of having a section specifically for converts to Catholicism: it would certainly have some advantages, but it could conceivably give people the wrong idea. (Possibly you’ve seen this quote before: “Pastoral activity in the Catholic Church, Latin as well as Eastern, no longer aims at having the faithful of one Church pass over to the other”)

 

[josie_L]

I think this is the sort if thing people are talking about. Now make no mistake, as a Protestant moving toward conversion to Catholicism I’m hardly qualified to talk about the historical traditions and developments with the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, but this statement just seems mean spirited, not to mention absurd. With regard to being mean spirited, has any Catholic on this thread attacked the Orthodox Church except to say she is prejudiced against her Latin brothers and sisters (if indeed she considers the Catholic Church to be her siblings) as you seem to support with this very comment. With regard to it being absurd, what basis do you have for seeing the Roman Catholic Church in free fall or akin to the Anglican Communion? The Catholic Church fiercely upholds the sanctity of life, the Sacramental nature of marriage between a man and woman and the sanctity of the family: the “domestic church”, the threefold ministry of bishops, priests, and deacons; the all-male nature of the priesthood, apostolic succession, the primacy of the Bishop of Rome as a unique successor of Sts. Peter and Paul (though by no means the only successor of the apostles, see Pope Francis’ Apostolic Exhortation “The Joy of the Gospel”), the real presence of Christ in Holy Communion and the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the Creeds, the Bible (including the DC books the Protestants rejected), and dogmatically proclaims the truths of the faith and promulgates sound doctrine through her Magisterium. While her liturgy might not be exactly the same as St. John C. used and some authentic development in doctrine has occurred as the Church has had need to define “the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.” (Jude 1:3) in an ever changing world: the fundamental teachings and practice of the Catholic Church are the same as they have always been.

What a wonderful defense of the Catholic faith/Church from someone not yet Catholic.

P.S. I will be praying for your full conversion. God bless you and yours.

 

[chimo]

I think this is the sort if thing people are talking about. Now make no mistake, as a Protestant moving toward conversion to Catholicism I’m hardly qualified to talk about the historical traditions and developments with the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, but this statement just seems mean spirited, not to mention absurd. With regard to being mean spirited, has any Catholic on this thread attacked the Orthodox Church except to say she is prejudiced against her Latin brothers and sisters (if indeed she considers the Catholic Church to be her siblings) as you seem to support with this very comment. With regard to it being absurd, what basis do you have for seeing the Roman Catholic Church in free fall or akin to the Anglican Communion? The Catholic Church fiercely upholds the sanctity of life, the Sacramental nature of marriage between a man and woman and the sanctity of the family: the “domestic church”, the threefold ministry of bishops, priests, and deacons; the all-male nature of the priesthood, apostolic succession, the primacy of the Bishop of Rome as a unique successor of Sts. Peter and Paul (though by no means the only successor of the apostles, see Pope Francis’ Apostolic Exhortation “The Joy of the Gospel”), the real presence of Christ in Holy Communion and the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the Creeds, the Bible (including the DC books the Protestants rejected), and dogmatically proclaims the truths of the faith and promulgates sound doctrine through her Magisterium. While her liturgy might not be exactly the same as St. John C. used and some authentic development in doctrine has occurred as the Church has had need to define “the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.” (Jude 1:3) in an ever changing world: the fundamental teachings and practice of the Catholic Church are the same as they have always been.

I think chrisb in his statement may have been referring to the Western captivity of the Church which is largely composed of many Roman Catholics. Our Orthodox brothers and sisters who live also in the West and are living in the United States while they have not all been affected like our brothers and sisters of the Catholic Church must be careful in addressing problems that the Catholic Church are going through in the West. This secular society which tries to tell our Churches that they do not need us was not created by the Catholic Church. These people who want to live the secular life without God may have been Catholic at one time, or Protestant, or even today many of the Orthodox who have now adopted this secular way of life but these people were not actively involve in the Church in the first place. I sense we the Orthodox were sent here to the West not to belittle our brothers and sisters but to help them and as we are here to help them they can also return the favor to help us. I am convinced that our enemy is never the Church but it is those forces which tries to dismantle it that is this secular society which we are now part of. We need to be more supportive of each other so that we can strengthen each other in combatting this secular way of life which now exists among us. We can do this when we can find the strength in each other to witness to people who today think they do not need God and particular His Son. I guess what I am saying is we are in for a fight. I encourage my brothers and sisters in the Orthodox Church to see in the Catholic Church a strength that can help us both because we are here also combatting the same secular way of life. I also encourage my brothers and sisters of the Catholic Church to see in the Eastern Church a strength that can be of help as well.

 

[MattofTexas]

I think chrisb in his statement may have been referring to the Western captivity of the Church which is largely composed of many Roman Catholics. Our Orthodox brothers and sisters who live also in the West and are living in the United States while they have not all been affected like our brothers and sisters of the Catholic Church must be careful in addressing problems that the Catholic Church are going through in the West. This secular society which tries to tell our Churches that they do not need us was not created by the Catholic Church. These people who want to live the secular life without God may have been Catholic at one time, or Protestant, or even today many of the Orthodox who have now adopted this secular way of life but these people were not actively involve in the Church in the first place. I sense we the Orthodox were sent here to the West not to belittle our brothers and sisters but to help them and as we are here to help them they can also return the favor to help us. I am convinced that our enemy is never the Church but it is those forces which tries to dismantle it that is this secular society which we are now part of. We need to be more supportive of each other so that we can strengthen each other in combatting this secular way of life which now exists among us. We can do this when we can find the strength in each other to witness to people who today think they do not need God and particular His Son. I guess what I am saying is we are in for a fight. I encourage my brothers and sisters in the Orthodox Church to see in the Catholic Church a strength that can help us both because we are here also combatting the same secular way of life. I also encourage my brothers and sisters of the Catholic Church to see in the Eastern Church a strength that can be of help as well.

While I would take issue with the idea of “western captivity” I think we can agree that both the Catholic and Orthodox, and indeed Protestants too, face threats to the Christian way of life, to the life of faith. We do live in world of increasing secularization, a world corrupted by those who are “filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.” (Rom 1:29-31), and God willing Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox may be a great blessing to each other, and the world, in this time of new challenges to the Faith. This is very similar to what Pope (soon, God willing, to be St.) John Paul the Great had to say in his letter Orientale Lumen:

In conducting this letter, my thoughts turn to my beloved brothers and sisters the Patriarchs, Bishops, Priests and Deacons, the Monks and Nuns, the men and women of the Eastern Churches.

On the threshold of the third millennium we all hear in our Sees the cry of those oppressed by the burden of grave threats, but who, perhaps even without realizing it, long to know what God in his love intended. These people feel that a ray of light, if it is welcomed, is capable of dispelling the shadows which cover the horizon of the Father’s tenderness.

Mary, “Mother of the star that never sets,”(67) “dawn of the mystical day,”(68) “rising of the sun of glory,”(69) shows us the Orientale Lumen.

Every day in the East the sun of hope rises again, the light that restores life to the human race. It is from the East, according to a lovely image, that our Savior will come again (cf. Mt 24:27).

For us, the men and women of the East are a symbol of the Lord who comes again. We cannot forget them, not only because we love them as brothers and sisters redeemed by the same Lord, but also because a holy nostalgia for the centuries lived in the full communion of faith and charity urges us and reproaches us for our sins and our mutual misunderstandings: we have deprived the world of a joint witness that could, perhaps, have avoided so many tragedies and even changed the course of history.

We are painfully aware that we cannot yet share in the same Eucharist. Now that the millennium is drawing to a close and our gaze turns to the rising Sun, with gratitude we find these men and women before our eyes and in our heart.

The echo of the Gospel - the words that do not disappoint - continues to resound with force, weakened only by our separation: Christ cries out but man finds it hard to hear his voice because we fail to speak with one accord. We listen together to the cry of those who want to hear God’s entire Word. The words of the West need the words of the East, so that God’s word may ever more clearly reveal its unfathomable riches. Our words will meet for ever in the heavenly Jerusalem, but we ask and wish that this meeting be anticipated in the holy Church which is still on her way towards the fullness of the Kingdom.

**May God shorten the time and distance. May Christ, the Orientale Lumen, soon, very soon, grant us to discover that in fact, despite so many centuries of distance, we were very close, because together – perhaps without knowing it – we were walking towards the one Lord, and thus towards one another.

May the people of the third millennium be able to enjoy this discovery, finally achieved by a word that is harmonious and thus fully credible, proclaimed by brothers and sisters who love one another and thank one another for the riches which they exchange. Thus shall we offer ourselves to God with the pure hands of reconciliation, and the people of the world will have one more well - founded reason to believe and to hope.**

 

[chimo]

While I would take issue with the idea of “western captivity” I think we can agree that both the Catholic and Orthodox, and indeed Protestants too, face threats to the Christian way of life, to the life of faith. We do live in world of increasing secularization, a world corrupted by those who are “filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.” (Rom 1:29-31), and God willing Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox may be a great blessing to each other, and the world, in this time of new challenges to the Faith. This is very similar to what Pope (soon, God willing, to be St.) John Paul the Great had to say in his letter Orientale Lumen:

By Western captivity I am referring to the governments of the West who do not want to acknowledge what Christianity means to them. I was using the word as an example of what undisciplined governments and peoples can mean to the Church. What has happened in the West is just a wake up call that needs our participation meaning that more of the Laity needs to come to witness for God and His Church. The problems of the West are much different than what had occurred in the East. But we need to come together more here and not be so much trying to figure each other up and pointing out too many things that really are unimportant to God. I find the Laity are the Churches greatest treasures but they can be sometimes a great burden as well when they will not cooperate in trying to understand that one Church cannot do it all. The focus of our present dilemma is actually our own unwillingness to come to know each other as we are able to. We seem to want to join this Church or that Church. Isn’t what John Paul II was addressing was that we hardly even want to know what the other can give to us? We need to focus ourselves more towards engaging into dialogue in the same manner as the Holy Father presented to us and continues to do so with the present Holy Father. As yet I do not see this among the Laity. Yes from the highest office but not from the Laity. The Pope will want the Laity to be more involve into this dialogue.

 

[MattofTexas]

By Western captivity I am referring to the governments of the West who do not want to acknowledge what Christianity means to them. I was using the word as an example of what undisciplined governments and peoples can mean to the Church. What has happened in the West is just a wake up call that needs our participation meaning that more of the Laity needs to come to witness for God and His Church. The problems of the West are much different than what had occurred in the East. But we need to come together more here and not be so much trying to figure each other up and pointing out too many things that really are unimportant to God. I find the Laity are the Churches greatest treasures but they can be sometimes a great burden as well when they will not cooperate in trying to understand that one Church cannot do it all. The focus of our present dilemma is actually our own unwillingness to come to know each other as we are able to. We seem to want to join this Church or that Church. Isn’t what John Paul II was addressing was that we hardly even want to know what the other can give to us? We need to focus ourselves more towards engaging into dialogue in the same manner as the Holy Father presented to us and continues to do so with the present Holy Father. As yet I do not see this among the Laity. Yes from the highest office but not from the Laity. The Pope will want the Laity to be more involve into this dialogue.

Good points. There is a moving away from Christianity in many western governments in some respects, and we do need to move together for the benefit of each other and the world, and rejoin to become one as Jesus prayed.