What is the Eastern take on Eucharistic miracles?

[theistgal]

I’m having a bit of a disagreement in another thread about Eucharistic miracles. For example, the ones where the Host miraculously changes into a piece of bloody flesh, or the Cup seems to be filled with very red blood.

I’m a Latin Rite Catholic so I’m familiar with these miracles, but I can see why they might be a bit disconcerting (to say the least) to a non-Catholic. I’ve been attending the Byzantine Rite church with my husband for a couple of years now so I just wondered if there are any comparable miracles in the Eastern tradition; and what the Eastern sensibility is about these types of miracle/apparition.

Thanks for any (name removed by moderator)ut you can offer!

 

[SedesDomi]

I’m having a bit of a disagreement in another thread about Eucharistic miracles. For example, the ones where the Host miraculously changes into a piece of bloody flesh, or the Cup seems to be filled with very red blood.

Do these changes make the Host and Cup any more the Body and Blood of Christ than they were before the changes occurred?

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I’m having a bit of a disagreement in another thread about Eucharistic miracles. For example, the ones where the Host miraculously changes into a piece of bloody flesh, or the Cup seems to be filled with very red blood.

I’m a Latin Rite Catholic so I’m familiar with these miracles, but I can see why they might be a bit disconcerting (to say the least) to a non-Catholic. I’ve been attending the Byzantine Rite church with my husband for a couple of years now so I just wondered if there are any comparable miracles in the Eastern tradition; and what the Eastern sensibility is about these types of miracle/apparition.

Thanks for any (name removed by moderator)ut you can offer!

The question itself is problematic:* What is the Eastern take on Eucharistic miracles?*

“The East” isn’t a singular monolithic place.

Inasmuch as I believe Eucharistic miracles are classified as a sort of private revelation, even faithful Latin Catholics would be free to not be concerned with them.

Otherwise, many (maybe even most) of us who are in full Union with Rome will be affirming or silent on such matters (if we are even familiar) as when we are brothers in communion it would be an odd indeed to speculate on what a sister church has ruled or to be contra-distinctive.

I am not aware of occurences of any special manifestations being made in the species of the Eucharist in Eastern circles (of course there may well be some I simply do not know about) but more commonly I think you would find the situation in Eastern circles are miracles related to those who receive the Eucharist and are moved to feats of great piety and holiness.

I think we can all agree - eastern, western, northern or southern, that the Eucharist alone (to begin with) is a miracle in and of itself.

 

[theistgal]

The question itself is problematic:* What is the* Eastern take on Eucharistic miracles?

“The East” isn’t a singular monolithic place.

True, and neither is the West, but we use the expressions as shorthand for purposes of discussion.

Otherwise, why call this forum “Eastern Catholicism”, and not “Some variations of some forms of what some people might call ‘Eastern’ Catholicism”?

 

[HashemEchad]

If there have been no “Eucharistic miracles” in the Eastern Catholic church, I would find that interesting…meaning its probably a Latin Rite phenomenon, for some reason.

 

[Madaglan]

A few months ago I read a story from the Sayings of the Desert Fathers. It concerned a pious monk who nonetheless did not not entirely believe that the bread and wine became the Body and Blood of Christ. Two other monks challenged him, and all three decided to pray for a certain period of time. At the end of the prescribed time, as the old pious monk was about to receive the Eucharist, it actually became Body and Blood in his sight. This is how I remember the story at least, and it comes from the East, although not a recent example.

I’m not familiar with many Eucharistic miracles in the East. In the Eastern Christian tradition, or at least in the Byzantine tradition, there is greater emphasis on miracles of light, of miracles from icons (weeping icons), etc. Perhaps since in the Western Catholic tradition there is a greater emphasis on “seeing” the Eucharist during the Mass and even outside the Mass, in Benedictions, Eucharistic Processions, Adoration, etc., these Eucharistic miracles occur more frequently than in the East. Likewise, if you think about the prominence of the iconstasis and icons in general in an Eastern church, it is no surprise that many miracles of the East are associated with icons.

 

[HashemEchad]

A few months ago I read a story from the Sayings of the Desert Fathers. It concerned a pious monk who nonetheless did not not entirely believe that the bread and wine became the Body and Blood of Christ. Two other monks challenged him, and all three decided to pray for a certain period of time. At the end of the prescribed time, as the old pious monk was about to receive the Eucharist, it actually became Body and Blood in his sight. This is how I remember the story at least, and it comes from the East, although not a recent example.

I’m not familiar with many Eucharistic miracles in the East. In the Eastern Christian tradition, or at least in the Byzantine tradition, there is greater emphasis on miracles of light, of miracles from icons (weeping icons), etc. Perhaps since in the Western Catholic tradition there is a greater emphasis on “seeing” the Eucharist during the Mass and even outside the Mass, in Benedictions, Eucharistic Processions, Adoration, etc., these Eucharistic miracles occur more frequently than in the East.

I was going to mention the weeping ikons, but forgot. Yes, you’re right that that is more of the Eastern tradition along those lines.

And YES, I completely forgot that in the Eastern Catholic church, they do not use a wafer/host, but rather, pieces of bread dipped in wine, right?

I wonder what this says about the Latin Rite phenomenon of seeing the host, it turning into flesh, etc? I’d think that it would also happen in the Eastern Rite, since the belief is the same…would the form of the communion used really make a difference?

 

[Madaglan]

I was going to mention the weeping ikons, but forgot. Yes, you’re right that that is more of the Eastern tradition along those lines.

And YES, I completely forgot that in the Eastern Catholic church, they do not use a wafer/host, but rather, pieces of bread dipped in wine, right?

I wonder what this says about the Latin Rite phenomenon of seeing the host, it turning into flesh, etc? I’d think that it would also happen in the Eastern Rite, since the belief is the same…would the form of the communion used really make a difference?

I don’t think the form would make a large difference. Usually the Bread (leavened and cut into small crouton-sized pieces) is mixed with the Wine and administered with a spoon.

Another matter to consider: why these Eucharistic miracles happen or are claimed to happen. Unlike in the West, in the East there never really has been any widespread rejection of the Bread and Wine as the Body and Blood of Christ. There were the Bogomils in Bulgaria, but that’s the only group I’m aware of. It seems that many cases of Eucharistic Miracles (such as even the Eastern one I provided) are in response to disbelief of the change, such as followers of Berengar, or later, the Reformed and Anabaptist Protestants.

 

[Nicholas82]

These miracles have happened in the East as well. Here is one account from a book published by SVS Press:
svspress.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=&products_id=2598

While serving as head sacristan Brother Constantine(Elder Cleopa before his tonsure) was an eyewitness to several miracles, which occured during the Divine Liturgy at Sihastria. He recalled these in later years and would recount them to those who came to him for their spiritual edification.
"Look at at what happened to a very good priest, Fr.Calistrat Bobu. He was a known spiritual father and confessor, but he went to see a nun who was living as a hermit in the forest. At that time there were about fifty known monks and nuns living alone like that in the woods. This particular nun continued to adhere to the old calendar, in opposition to the decision of the Holy Synod of the Romanian Orthodox Church. When Fr.Calistrat visited her, she said,“The Holy Spirit does not descend when you serve the Divine Liturgy because you have gone over to the new calendar!” From that time on, Fr.Calistrat had doubts about the decision of the Holy Synod.
“Once while I was serving my turn as sacristan, I noticed that the antidoron for the abbot was white and very sweet, while the one for Fr.Calistrat was green and almost spoiled. I asked Abbot Ioanichie about this.
" ‘Fr.Abbot why is it that when Fr.Calistrat serves his antidoron is green and rancid?’ "
" ‘Oh! My son he serves with doubt in his mind! He went to an ascetic nun in the forest who told him that the Holy Spirit does not descend upon the Holy Gifts at the at the Liturgy because of the calendar issue. I told him he is going to endure trials because of this doubt in his mind!’”
"Then when Fr.Calistrat was serving the Divine Liturgy and invoked the grace of the Holy Spirit, he saw that the Lamb had become flesh, and blood was flowing on the holy disc and onto the holy antimins. Then when he looked into the chalice he saw blood. He called me over to the altar table: ‘Brother Constantine, come over here! What do you see?’
" ‘Oh! Fr.Calistrat! The holy communion has become real flesh and blood!’
"Then he sent me to call the abbot. When Fr.Ioanichie came into the altar he immediately told those at the cliros to read from the Psalter. Then he turned to Fr.Calistrat and said, ‘So! Fr.Calistrat, now do you believe that the Holy Spirit descends upon the Gifts?’
" ‘Forgive me, Father!’ Fr.Calistrat answered and fell on his knees.
"Fr.Abbot Ioanichie continued to speak to Fr.Calistrat ‘Look! Has the Holy Spirit come? Has he transformed this into flesh? Is this blood? Do you still have doubts, Father?’
" ‘I do believe Fr.Abbot. I beg you to forgive me!’
" ‘Gather up the Holy Mysteries!’ "
“Then with the spear they made a small hole in the leg of the, altar table, because the altar table is the tomb of Christ, and they buried they buried the Holy Mysteries there according to the teachings of the holy fathers. They then washed the chalice in the basin in the altar, together with the holy antimins. I stayed there for several hours until the entire Psalter had been read. Then they began the Divine Liturgy again from the point of the of the Proskomedia ‘And one of the soldiers pierced His side with a lance . . .’ They continued through the Divine Liturgy, and the miracle did not repeat itself.
" ‘Now do you believe?’ the Abbot asked Fr.Calistrat.
" ‘I believe Father.’”

 

[Madaglan]

These miracles have happened in the East as well. Here is one account from a book published by SVS Press:
svspress.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=&products_id=2598

While serving as head sacristan Brother Constantine(Elder Cleopa before his tonsure) was an eyewitness to several miracles, which occured during the Divine Liturgy at Sihastria. He recalled these in later years and would recount them to those who came to him for their spiritual edification.
"Look at at what happened to a very good priest, Fr.Calistrat Bobu. He was a known spiritual father and confessor, but he went to see a nun who was living as a hermit in the forest. At that time there were about fifty known monks and nuns living alone like that in the woods. This particular nun continued to adhere to the old calendar, in opposition to the decision of the Holy Synod of the Romanian Orthodox Church. When Fr.Calistrat visited her, she said,“The Holy Spirit does not descend when you serve the Divine Liturgy because you have gone over to the new calendar!” From that time on, Fr.Calistrat had doubts about the decision of the Holy Synod.
“Once while I was serving my turn as sacristan, I noticed that the antidoron for the abbot was white and very sweet, while the one for Fr.Calistrat was green and almost spoiled. I asked Abbot Ioanichie about this.
" ‘Fr.Abbot why is it that when Fr.Calistrat serves his antidoron is green and rancid?’ "
" ‘Oh! My son he serves with doubt in his mind! He went to an ascetic nun in the forest who told him that the Holy Spirit does not descend upon the Holy Gifts at the at the Liturgy because of the calendar issue. I told him he is going to endure trials because of this doubt in his mind!’”
"Then when Fr.Calistrat was serving the Divine Liturgy and invoked the grace of the Holy Spirit, he saw that the Lamb had become flesh, and blood was flowing on the holy disc and onto the holy antimins. Then when he looked into the chalice he saw blood. He called me over to the altar table: ‘Brother Constantine, come over here! What do you see?’
" ‘Oh! Fr.Calistrat! The holy communion has become real flesh and blood!’
"Then he sent me to call the abbot. When Fr.Ioanichie came into the altar he immediately told those at the cliros to read from the Psalter. Then he turned to Fr.Calistrat and said, ‘So! Fr.Calistrat, now do you believe that the Holy Spirit descends upon the Gifts?’
" ‘Forgive me, Father!’ Fr.Calistrat answered and fell on his knees.
"Fr.Abbot Ioanichie continued to speak to Fr.Calistrat ‘Look! Has the Holy Spirit come? Has he transformed this into flesh? Is this blood? Do you still have doubts, Father?’
" ‘I do believe Fr.Abbot. I beg you to forgive me!’
" ‘Gather up the Holy Mysteries!’ "
“Then with the spear they made a small hole in the leg of the, altar table, because the altar table is the tomb of Christ, and they buried they buried the Holy Mysteries there according to the teachings of the holy fathers. They then washed the chalice in the basin in the altar, together with the holy antimins. I stayed there for several hours until the entire Psalter had been read. Then they began the Divine Liturgy again from the point of the of the Proskomedia ‘And one of the soldiers pierced His side with a lance . . .’ They continued through the Divine Liturgy, and the miracle did not repeat itself.
" ‘Now do you believe?’ the Abbot asked Fr.Calistrat.
" ‘I believe Father.’”

Well, there you go!

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Otherwise, why call this forum “Eastern Catholicism”, and not “Some variations of some forms of what some people might call ‘Eastern’ Catholicism”?

That dichotomy does not work.

This is the Eastern Catholics Forum because the whole ball of wax that includes Catholics who are non-Roman/Eastern are included here.

But if you spend some time here, you realize we don’t all sing (or chant) with one voice.

 

[SVP]

That dichotomy does not work.

This is the Eastern Catholics Forum because the whole ball of wax that includes Catholics who are non-Roman/Eastern are included here.

But if you spend some time here, you realize we don’t all sing (or chant) with one voice.

Why then DO we have differences in Theology, why call the East and West “two lungs” of the Catholic Church if there is not a difference in teachings and viewpoint? This is kind of the antithesis to the point that if were are all Catholics faithful to Rome, then shouldn’t we then behave as Roman Catholics as has been discussed in another thread?

Perhaps the question might be asked whether such Eucharistic miracles have been reported in the Orthodox or other Eastern traditions.

P.S. if you notice: Theist Gal *registered *here in 2005,(Join Date: May 20, 2005 ) almost a full two years prior to you, so remarks like “But if you spend some time here, you realize we don’t all sing (or chant) with one voice.” might come across as somewhat condescending in tone. Does one have to post 2000+ posts to prove they have also read and followed what goes on?

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Why then DO we have differences in Theology, why call the East and West “two lungs” of the Catholic Church if there is not a difference in teachings and viewpoint? This is kind of the antithesis to the point that if were are all Catholics faithful to Rome, then shouldn’t we then behave as Roman Catholics as has been discussed in another thread?.

Some of us are of the thinking that “two lungs” in a great metaphor that got the idea right, but the math wrong. As a Greek Catholic yourself, married to an RC, if both of you head to the local Maronite or Chaldean parish neither would exactly be in “home territory”. Sure they are “Eastern”…

The temptation for a lot of folks is to think “all those Easterners are pretty interchangable” but that just isn’t the case. Even among the Latins or the Greeks or the Syrian families of Christians there are manifold parties in each and the moment one persons starts to assert that "X" is the official singular theology of “(insert church here)” I get a little nervous… I begin to think “Who made them the voice of a whole ancient tradition?”

P.S. if you notice: Theist Gal *registered *here in 2005,(Join Date: May 20, 2005 ) almost a full two years prior to you, so remarks like “But if you spend some time here, you realize we don’t all sing (or chant) with one voice.” might come across as somewhat condescending in tone. Does one have to post 2000+ posts to prove they have also read and followed what goes on?

No, but after 2000+ posts you kind of begin to notice who posts and reads here regularly. I can’t “hear your tone” so I am going to roll with the idea you aren’t dressing me down for that. I can understand you sticking up for your wife if you were mistaken in thinking I was condescending. (Yes, I do pay attention.)

 

[theistgal]

No matter what I say here lately I seem to get myself in trouble, so – “Uncle”.

 

[Amadeus]

No matter what I say here lately I seem to get myself in trouble, so – “Uncle”.

I’m here!

Well, Christine, having known you for a longer time than many here, internetly speaking, I can vouch for the sincerity of your Eastern quest!

Keep plugging in!

 

[Jakub]

Registered date and #'s of posts does not equate to knowledge…

You do your thing Christine…

james

 

[Ghosty]

An Ethiopian Orthodox friend of mine related a case of a Eucharistic Miracle that happened to a priest she knew. In their tradition they consecrate whole leavened loaves, and then bless others that aren’t used for the Eucharist itself for eating and distribution as a blessing.

At any rate, this priest accidentally took home one of the consecrated loaves rather than the blessed ones, and put it in the oven to heat up for lunch. He smelled burning flesh in a few minutes, and ran to find out what it was. The smell was coming from the oven, and he realized his mistake, removed the Eucharist, and returned it to the church.

Just a third-hand story, but it demonstrates that Eucharistic miracles are not something that only the Latins think about.

Peace and God bless!

 

[ronyodish]

At any rate, this priest accidentally took home one of the consecrated loaves rather than the blessed ones, and put it in the oven to heat up for lunch. He smelled burning flesh in a few minutes, and ran to find out what it was. The smell was coming from the oven, and he realized his mistake, removed the Eucharist, and returned it to the church.

Wow!

Blessed be the Lord Jesus Christ!

God bless,

Rony

 

[ASimpleSinner]

No matter what I say here lately I seem to get myself in trouble, so – “Uncle”.

You aren’t in trouble - this is a tough crowd!

Personally I have a French Canadian grandmother who digs all the stories of Eucharistic miracles and as a Catholic myself, I am right there with her. Some other Eastern Catholics (like some Latin Catholics) aren’t as enthusiastic, and being that this falls under the sphere of “private revelation” they don’t have to be…

 

[bpbasilphx]

Do these changes make the Host and Cup any more the Body and Blood of Christ than they were before the changes occurred?

**Actually, it would make them LESS the Body and Blood of Christ.

The substance of the Boidy and Blood of Christ exist under the APPEARANCES of bread and wine. If the accidents are not longer there, then neither is the substance.

At least, this is what the Russian liturgikon says on this matter.**