What is the Goal of Jihad?

[R_not]

According to Muslim scholar Bassam Tibi (quoted recently at FrontPage Magazine), “Muslims are religiously obliged to disseminate the Islamic faith throughout the world… If non-Muslims submit to conversion or subjugation, this call can be pursued peacefully. If they do not, Muslims are obliged to wage war against them.” World peace, according to Islamic teaching, “is reached only with the conversion or submission of all mankind to Islam.”

Centrality of jihad in islam

Here is how the distortion of words come. They do not look at ‘opening the world up to islam as war, or violence’:

Moreover, continues Tibi, when Muslims disseminate Islam through violent means, that is not war (harb), as that word only describes the use of force by non-Muslims. Islamic wars are acts of “opening” the world to Islam. “[T]hose who resist Islam cause wars and are responsible for them.”

In other words, simply by the act of existing, the entire non-Islamic world is equated with war. That is why Muslims call it the Dar al-Harb, the Realm of War. Yet when Muslims wage jihad, they are doing it to bring about the peace of universal Islam. So whatever Muslims do, is by definition peace, and whatever infidels do, is by definition war.

This explains, by the way, why “moderate” Muslims almost never admit that Muslim terrorists are terrorists. It is because jihad itself is not war, but a way of pursuing peace. By such manipulations of language and such massive double standards, Islam reveals itself as a closed system that precludes any critical thought about itself, as well as any fair and honest dealings with non-Muslims.

I have to add this to my list of words that muslims have alternate definitions for which include peace, and innocent.

Read the rest of the article above, it is interesting and along with the website in my previous post it shows us how muslims manipulate words to fool us.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I guess so. In this day and age, I would think people in industrialized countries with access to information would all be “unbelievers” then if they’re not Muslim - or maybe it’s actually learning the teachings of Islam as opposed to just knowing it exists too. Would I then be considered an “unbeliever” because I have obviously heard of Muhammad and Islam and what it teaches and whole-heartedly and knowingly reject it?

I am not the one who can see what is in people’s hearts. I don’t know what you actually believe, what you’ve been exposed to, and what you reject. So I couldn’t say if you (or anyone else, really) is actually a believer or not–that determination is left to the Almighty.

There are, for instance, many people who might think they reject Islam but they only reject what they think is Islam, and not what is actually Islam, because perhaps their understanding is incorrect.

 

[Sister_Amy]

According to Muslim scholar Bassam Tibi (quoted recently at FrontPage Magazine), “Muslims are religiously obliged to disseminate the Islamic faith throughout the world… If non-Muslims submit to conversion or subjugation, this call can be pursued peacefully. If they do not, Muslims are obliged to wage war against them.” World peace, according to Islamic teaching, “is reached only with the conversion or submission of all mankind to Islam.”

Centrality of jihad in islam

Here is how the distortion of words come. They do not look at ‘opening the world up to islam as war, or violence’:

I have to add this to my list of words that muslims have alternate definitions for which include peace, and innocent.

Read the rest of the article above, it is interesting and along with the website in my previous post it shows us how muslims manipulate words to fool us.

Who is Bassam Tibi? I’ve never heard of him.

 

[R_not]

I want to make an interesting observation. I recently started taking a class on the “Sirah,” the text for which is called Fiqh as-Sirat an-Nabawiyyah or something like that–Jurisprudence of the Prophetic Biography.

That’s what “Sirah” or “Seerah” (or even “Sira”) means or refers to–the life of the Prophet Muhammad.

Now, the interesting observation is that the typical text used by those who wish to attack Islam, as regards the Sirah, is something by Ibn Ishaaq. It’s a text that actually doesn’t exist, interestingly enough, except in pieces preserved in other writings.

The sirah by Ibn Ishaaq, however, was not a complete biography of Muhammad’s Life. In fact, it was a description of military expeditions! I can’t remember off-hand the title, but it was the Arabic for ‘military expeditions.’ It was not a description of Muhammad’s family life, sermons, etc., but a description of military expeditions.

So what would you expect to find in a book about military expeditions? Probably war and violence.

Moreover, many reputable scholars (like Imam Al-Bukhari) would not even use Ibn Ishaaq as an authoritative source.

So when you see someone trying to bash Islam, like R_Not above, who claims that the “Sirah” is “filled” with violence–look at what is actually being referenced.

tsk tsk tsk sister amy. You tell us that you don’t want us to read the koran because we take it out of context, you tell us that the muslims don’t follow the hadiths, but we find out that the sira is based on the hadiths, and then you now tell us that we are taking the sira out of context. but it is the same story we hear about the koran - we are misinterpreting it. Well, it is the accepted translation especially among the sunni.

Sorry, but your thinking I am bashing islam by showing its texts is just not the case. I only tell the truth about islam, unlike yourself who plays word games with us.

It is a common complaint that I have heard before when your texts are being exposed. kpeople: we need to stand on the tallest buildings and yell it to the world!

Most of mohammed’s life AFTER he started up islam WAS military conquests.

 

[Jay53]

I am not the one who can see what is in people’s hearts. I don’t know what you actually believe, what you’ve been exposed to, and what you reject. So I couldn’t say if you (or anyone else, really) is actually a believer or not–that determination is left to the Almighty.

There are, for instance, many people who might think they reject Islam but they only reject what they think is Islam, and not what is actually Islam, because perhaps their understanding is incorrect.

Well, for me, I decisively reject Islam because I KNOW that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died on the cross for all of us. Whether I understand the rest of Islam, i.e. jihad, sharia, the five pillars etc. or not is irrelevant to me personally, because I completely reject that aspect of Islam (rejecting the divinity of Christ). Can anyone reject that part of Islam, believe Jesus is God and still be a believer? Is that even possible?

 

[R_not]

Here is a quote from one of the websites above

MOHAMMED, THE FILM: If the Sira were a 2-hour movie of Mohammed as a prophet, it would go like this:

Mohammed has his first revelation in the first scene. The first fight starts 2 minutes into the movie. After that it is plotting, shouting, arguing, threatening and preaching. Even when the scene is in Mohammed’s camp, the backdrop is always the struggle with the kafirs. Then 34 minutes into the film, the first killing happens and killing continues for the next 1 ½ hours. Armed raids, assassinations, plots, spies, executions, torture, rape, battles, and on and on. Kafirs (non-Muslims) die and lose. Mohammed dies. Islam triumphs. End of film.

DO THE MATH: The Sira defines Mohammed. The Sira IS Mohammed. Mohammed is Islam. Sira = kafir hatred = Mohammed = Islam. Therefore, Islam = kafir hatred.

 

[R_not]

Well, for me, I decisively reject Islam because I KNOW that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died on the cross for all of us. Whether I understand the rest of Islam or not is irrelevant to me personally, because I completely reject that aspect of Islam. Can anyone reject that part of Islam, believe Jesus is God and still be a believer? Is that even possible?

I don’t think so. It is why they had to make life so miserable for people they captured either as slaves, or as dhimmi, that they eventually were forced to convert. Probably not realizing that they were taking away Jesus out of their children’s lives as they knew Him and replacing Him with a nasty warlord.

mohammed was a self-proclaimed (false) prophet who changed the original message of all the prophets before him which should show us all he was not legitimate. He sinned so often that he had to redefine sin.

It is sad that so many are duped by this ‘religion’.

 

[cathopologist]

There are, for instance, many people who might think they reject Islam but they only reject what they think is Islam, and not what is actually Islam, because perhaps their understanding is incorrect.

I reject Islam because the Qu’ran is not historically accurate and contradicts earlier messages from the Torah and NT. I reject it because it teaches Jesus is not as great as Mohammad. I reject it because Mohammad does not strike to me as a good role model for any human.

I do not think Muslims are necessarily bad people, as i have many Muslim friends. I do admire Muslims who are steadfast in the monotheistic belief and i will never call a Muslim a ‘devil-worshipper’ since the Catholic Church does acknowledge Muslims worship the same God of the Jews and Christians. I just find it disappointing Muslims still think of Christians as polytheists because of what the Qu’ran incorrectly teaches about the Trinity. Sometimes i feel some Muslims know we are not polytheists but they cannot change the opinions of Muslim scholars and sheikhs because that would mean re-editing the Qu’ran. We all know what happened when Uthman did that and he paid for it with his life.

 

[Sister_Amy]

tsk tsk tsk sister amy. You tell us that you don’t want us to read the koran because we take it out of context,

ROFL.

Silly, silly. READ THE QUR’AN. This, more than anything else, I wish you would do. Read it. Read the whole thing. Read it again, over and over. I wish you would! I never said I don’t want you to read it.

It is true that people take verses out of context–they do with the Bible as well. It doesn’t mean they shouldn’t read it. In fact, by reading they would ideally GET the context, right? So please, read the Qur’an. By all means.

you tell us that the muslims don’t follow the hadiths,

Funny how I can’t ever remember saying that!! Muslims don’t follow hadiths? Whatever. Just a few months ago I prepared a lengthy set of powerpoint presentations providing proof that a Muslim who rejects hadiths is not even a Muslim.

but we find out that the sira is based on the hadiths,

Based on hadiths? Can you tell the difference, I wonder, between seerah and hadiths? There are hadiths in the seerah, of course. We would expect as much. But not everything in the seerah is considered a valid hadith, authenticated and strong.

and then you now tell us that we are taking the sira out of context.

Am I? Or am I telling you that you’re only looking at part of the story? Or is that the same thing?

but it is the same story we hear about the koran - we are misinterpreting it.

Yes. Don’t you think Muslims are “misinterpreting” the Bible when they use it to prove Islam? Bit of a double standard, perhaps?

Well, it is the accepted translation especially among the sunni.

What is the accepted translation? There are dozens of english translations. More to the point, a translation is not the same as an interpretation. To say your interpretation is wrong doesn’t mean the translation is incorrect or fault. LOL.

Sorry, but your thinking I am bashing islam by showing its texts is just not the case. I only tell the truth about islam, unlike yourself who plays word games with us.

Do you work for FrontPageMag? I’m just curious.

It is a common complaint that I have heard before when your texts are being exposed. kpeople: we need to stand on the tallest buildings and yell it to the world!

Right. Try to brush off legitimate criticism. I would expect nothing less from you.

Most of mohammed’s life AFTER he started up islam WAS military conquests.

Factually incorrect, as usual. Typical.

With very few excptions, I haven’t read your posts now for many months. I think I now remember why.

Auf wieder sehen.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Well, for me, I decisively reject Islam because I KNOW that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died on the cross for all of us. Whether I understand the rest of Islam, i.e. jihad, sharia, the five pillars etc. or not is irrelevant to me personally, because I completely reject that aspect of Islam (rejecting the divinity of Christ). Can anyone reject that part of Islam, believe Jesus is God and still be a believer? Is that even possible?

Jihad, Shari’ah, the Five Pillars is irrelevant to a person who doesn’t believe Muhammad is a Prophet. The starting point is really important. There are only a couple of things about Islam a person needs to understand to become a Muslim.

(1) Allah
(2) Qur’an
(3) Muhammad

 

[Sister_Amy]

I just find it disappointing Muslims still think of Christians as polytheists because of what the Qu’ran incorrectly teaches about the Trinity. Sometimes i feel some Muslims know we are not polytheists but they cannot change the opinions of Muslim scholars and sheikhs because that would mean re-editing the Qu’ran. We all know what happened when Uthman did that and he paid for it with his life.

Uthman did no editing or re-editing of the Qur’an. He supervised copying it. And that’s not why he was killed, either.

On the matter of polytheism, it’s a word we have in English, not a word in Arabic. The Arabic word which might be used for the same, to call Christians polytheists would be to call them mushrikeen. And considering what Muslims accuse Christians of doing–worshiping Jesus, it seems to be correct.

 

[Jay53]

Jihad, Shari’ah, the Five Pillars is irrelevant to a person who doesn’t believe Muhammad is a Prophet. The starting point is really important. There are only a couple of things about Islam a person needs to understand to become a Muslim.

(1) Allah
(2) Qur’an
(3) Muhammad

So, if I think the Quran is a made up book by Muhammad and reject Muhammad as a prophet (I honestly think he was a misguided, sinful man - I’ve recently been wondering if he had a mental illness (i.e. hearing voices, schizophrenia … I don’t know) that he was struggling with and writing the Quran was how he dealt with it - trying to “conquer his demons” so to speak). In any event, to the Muslim mind, does this make me an unbeliever and destined for hell? (Don’t worry, you won’t hurt my feelings if you and other Muslims would think so - I know the truth ) I’m just trying to learn the Muslim perspective.

 

[Jay53]

Uthman did no editing or re-editing of the Qur’an. He supervised copying it. And that’s not why he was killed, either.

On the matter of polytheism, it’s a word we have in English, not a word in Arabic. The Arabic word which might be used for the same, to call Christians polytheists would be to call them mushrikeen. And considering what Muslims accuse Christians of doing–worshiping Jesus, it seems to be correct.

Only because, once again, they don’t understand the Trinity. Christians worship/have ALWAYS worshipped ONE God. You would think Muslims would celebrate this commonality between the two religions. It might lead to a more peaceful coexistence. As much as I disagree with Islam, I respect the fact that they worship one God. I concede they have a different view of Him, but I (IMO) believe it is the same God.

 

[Sister_Amy]

So, if I think the Quran is a made up book by Muhammad and reject Muhammad as a prophet (I honestly think he was a misguided, sinful man - I’ve recently been wondering if he had a mental illness (i.e. hearing voices, schizophrenia … I don’t know) that he was struggling with and writing the Quran was how he dealt with it - trying to “conquer his demons” so to speak). In any event, to the Muslim mind, does this make me an unbeliever and destined for hell? (Don’t worry, you won’t hurt my feelings if you and other Muslims would think so - I know the truth ) I’m just trying to learn the Muslim perspective.

Have you even read the Qur’an?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Only because, once again, they don’t understand the Trinity. Christians worship/have ALWAYS worshipped ONE God. You would think Muslims would celebrate this commonality between the two religions. It might lead to a more peaceful coexistence. As much as I disagree with Islam, I respect the fact that they worship one God. I concede they have a different view of Him, but I (IMO) believe it is the same God.

I’m not entirely convinced that understanding the Trinity is necessary, or that it would conflict with my statement. Rather, it is only believing in the Trinity that would allow one to think that worshipping Jesus at all is not shirk.

 

[Jay53]

Have you even read the Qur’an?

Not cover to cover. Just verses posted on these forums, or other verses I find when I look up various topics I’m interested in. My impression from others who have read it (I think I read this in a book at my church about the Catholic view of Islam) is that it is a very confusing read - not chronologically in any order, repeats things, contradicts things, etc. I’ll have to see if I can find that book again - I’ll be at church Friday AM - that may not even be the book I’m thinking of. ???

Anyhow, given the verses I have read so far, I don’t think I could handle reading the whole thing. Don’t get me wrong, some verses are completely innocent, but some of them I just shake my head and think ‘how can anyone actually believe this guy’. No offense! Of course, some of what I may be thinking of may be hadiths and not specifically in the Quran. One of my biggest “eye-rolling” topics is about how Muhammad is allowed more than the 4 wives he allots to everyone else, but he claims “Allah” has allowed it for him. How convenient! But, like I said, that may not even be directly in the Quran. But, it’s behaviors like that that make me question Muhammad’s “prophethood” in the first place. If he was a chaste/humble/peaceful man like Jesus, I would be more inclined to believe him.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Not cover to cover. Just verses posted on these forums, or other verses I find when I look up various topics I’m interested in. My impression from others who have read it (I think I read this in a book at my church about the Catholic view of Islam) is that it is a very confusing read - not chronologically in any order, repeats things, contradicts things, etc. I’ll have to see if I can find that book again - I’ll be at church Friday AM - that may not even be the book I’m thinking of. ???

Anyhow, given the verses I have read so far, I don’t think I could handle reading the whole thing. Don’t get me wrong, some verses are completely innocent, but some of them I just shake my head and think ‘how can anyone actually believe this guy’. No offense!

The reason I asked is that I think without having reading it, your opinion about it is uninformed.

The Qur’an is indeed non-linear, which might make it difficult to understand. But that’s just one level of complexity regarding the Qur’an–those who study it can see precisely how it ties together, verses, passages, even chapters, and sections of chapters are all intricately bound.

The verses which people tend to quote here are mostly revealed in Medina, i.e., late in the development of Islam. They are more complex verses, with more complex themes and more difficult language. And they are also more difficult to understand since the reader is supposed to have a particular background/baseline understanding before diving in.

 

[R_not]

ROFL.

Silly, silly. READ THE QUR’AN. This, more than anything else, I wish you would do. Read it. Read the whole thing. Read it again, over and over. I wish you would! I never said I don’t want you to read it.

It is true that people take verses out of context–they do with the Bible as well. It doesn’t mean they shouldn’t read it. In fact, by reading they would ideally GET the context, right? So please, read the Qur’an. By all means.

Funny how I can’t ever remember saying that!! Muslims don’t follow hadiths? Whatever. Just a few months ago I prepared a lengthy set of powerpoint presentations providing proof that a Muslim who rejects hadiths is not even a Muslim.

Based on hadiths? Can you tell the difference, I wonder, between seerah and hadiths? There are hadiths in the seerah, of course. We would expect as much. But not everything in the seerah is considered a valid hadith, authenticated and strong.

Am I? Or am I telling you that you’re only looking at part of the story? Or is that the same thing?

Yes. Don’t you think Muslims are “misinterpreting” the Bible when they use it to prove Islam? Bit of a double standard, perhaps?

What is the accepted translation? There are dozens of english translations. More to the point, a translation is not the same as an interpretation. To say your interpretation is wrong doesn’t mean the translation is incorrect or fault. LOL.

Do you work for FrontPageMag? I’m just curious.

Right. Try to brush off legitimate criticism. I would expect nothing less from you.

Factually incorrect, as usual. Typical.

With very few excptions, I haven’t read your posts now for many months. I think I now remember why.

Auf wieder sehen.

Oh, I have read it and basically it is just as violent when refering to jihad as the other texts. And you know it. I don’t know who you are trying to kid - yourself maybe, but not anyone who has read it.

164 jihad verses (and take note the violence in them) from the koran.

So how else do you want it dished up to you? Do you want all the hadiths that are violent?

maybe you can show us that one surah that is not violent. and it is probably the weaker Meccan surah, but go ahead and show it for us. I can’t find it.

I don’t want to read the koran anymore - I find it kludgy. It is mostly about mohammed, mohammed obsessing on kufirs, mohammed obsessing on himself, mohammed obsessing on controlling his followers, mohammed obsessing on hating kufirs and stating different ways to kill them, and even mohammed obsessing on women and how he can control them.

 

[Jay53]

The reason I asked is that I think without having reading it, your opinion about it is uninformed.

But, even if I read it, I will still believe Jesus is God. I’m not sure how reading it would change my opinion. ??

 

[Sister_Amy]

But, even if I read it, I will still believe Jesus is God. I’m not sure how reading it would change my opinion. ??