What is the good homosexual life, a life that is complete, fulfilled, and happy?

  • Thread starter Thread starter djeter
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
And to think it all starts with that “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect…” No no no says the swamp rat, join me here in my relativist swamp. Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see. It’s getting hard to be someone but it all works out. It doesn’t matter much to me. You know it’s nothing but a dream. Nothing is real. Nothing to get hung about…Strawberry Swamp forever…Stawberry Swamp…forever. Sing along, Larkin31…Let me take you down…

dj
Are you snidely calling me a swamp rat? I was just cautioned for saying that someone told bald lies

this, hardly, seems better, although you might say you were just speaking generally to whomever

I just want to understand the acceptable coin of trade here.
 
But you’ll agree that words like good, happiness and most importantly love don’t quite enjoy the same level of substantialness to them today as they did in St Thomas’s day.
Careful now or I’ll start singing Strawberry Swamp to you too. Josef Pieper made a business out of interpreting the great Saint. He never mentioned the meaning of the words had changed…

One such book on happiness is here (reading selections):

payingattentiontothesky.com/2010/08/20/book-recommendation-happiness-and-contemplation-by-josef-pieper/

dj
 
See here we go…back to the island of Relativia.

Our ultimate good and our real happiness is divine perfect union with God for eternity. That’s Catholic teaching. Using our sexuality against God’s will is also against Catholic teaching.

What God does in the end with our souls is His call of course. From what the Church has learned about God’s will, we’re move into the area of presumption when dismiss/ignore/self-define Church teaching, its teaching authority, etc etc…and ‘love as we want’
 
Are you snidely calling me a swamp rat? I was just cautioned for saying that someone told bald lies

this, hardly, seems better, although you might say you were just speaking generally to whomever

I just want to understand the acceptable coin of trade here.
I’ll change it to swamp walrus, kook kook a chooo…

whoops seems my 20 minute edit time was up. You’ll just have to live with it and my apology.

dj
 
Just helps to know what kind of mentality I am dealing with

that, I will thank you for being clear about 👍
 
Our ultimate good and our real happiness is divine perfect union with God for eternity. That’s Catholic teaching. Using our sexuality against God’s will is also against Catholic teaching.
Excellent Edward.
 
My belief is that love is the most valuable thing in the world, both to give and to receive. Now, it has been my experience in life that I am capable of giving and receiving the most intimate and full expressions of love to another man, and I am not capable of doing the same with a woman. I can find no harm to anyone or any injustice that would be caused by my love of another man, so it seems that since I have been given the opportunity to do so I should joyfully embrace that opportunity. I will concede to you that *if *I did believe that any aspect of a gay relationships endangered a person’s eternal life that I would be obliged to refrain from those aspects. However, that is something I do not believe.

I hope this addresses some of what you are asking.

-Kevin
Yes it does, thank you. You mention things like “eternal life” yet your religious affiliation says “unsure.” Do you accept the idea of a personal God, a God that “is” love and who literally loved you into existence?

*Man is constructed from within, in the image of God, to be loved and to love. In the Trinity, Love’s own essence portrays itself. Man is in God’s image and thereby he is a being whose innermost dynamic is likewise directed toward the receiving and giving of love.*from “God and the World,” Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger

Does that resonate with you at all? From what you have written here, I think it would…I guess what I’m stumbling about for is a confession of faith because I don’t think the concept of sin arises if there is no conciousness of a divine being.

dj
 
Many kids don’t grow up with a mom and dad. As for Catholic adoption agencies shutting down, how does that hurt the kids? I am sure that the other secular adoption agencies will pick up the slack. Its not like kids are getting thrown onto the street because these adoption agencies are shutting down.
And you feel the same about Catholic Hospitals – shut 'em down if they refuse to perform abortions or grant doctors and nurses a right of concientious objection?

I would think we could all live together, the more doctors, nurses, adoption agencies the better, wouldn’t you say? Your thinking here has me flummoxed.

dj
 
Once, I admitted to a Franciscan that I have these tendencies, and he told me never to focus on asking God to “get rid of” my homosexuality, but that I should focus on asking God to fill me entirely and push all my sins away. This should be the same for every homosexual human being. It seems, to me, that the good homosexual life is one that consists in visiting the Tabernacle daily and begging God to fill you with His Spirit. A homosexual has some extra hurdles to get over, but a sinful lust remains so no matter who it is.

The most complete homosexual person is the one who acknowledges that he is human, and that heterosexuals are human. In this, God shows him his infinite worth as a living being, a beloved child of the Most High. It’s the same as a good heterosexual life…
To the extent both are called chaste living, I believe you are right.

dj
 
No harm has yet been demonstrated to children adopted by gays (because they are gay, meaning not also the same harm as caused by heteros). You can’t just claim it; you must demonstrate it. In a court of law, anyway.
Maybe not a court of law but there is a significant amount of social research that indicates children of gay parents encounter difficulties:

Love Isn’t Enough: Five Reasons Why Same-Sex Marriage Will Harm Children By Trayce Hansen, Ph.D.

payingattentiontothesky.com/causes-of-homosexuality-a-christian-appraisal-of-the-data/gay-adoption-issues/

dj
 
Maybe not a court of law but there is a significant amount of social research that indicates children of gay parents encounter difficulties:

Love Isn’t Enough: Five Reasons Why Same-Sex Marriage Will Harm Children By Trayce Hansen, Ph.D.

payingattentiontothesky.com/causes-of-homosexuality-a-christian-appraisal-of-the-data/gay-adoption-issues/

dj
So you know, there is not an iota of “social research” referenced in that opinion column.

But if you actually have any on the harm done to children by gay parents, I would be very interested in it.
 
Yes it does, thank you. You mention things like “eternal life” yet your religious affiliation says “unsure.” Do you accept the idea of a personal God, a God that “is” love and who literally loved you into existence?

*Man is constructed from within, in the image of God, to be loved and to love. In the Trinity, Love’s own essence portrays itself. Man is in God’s image and thereby he is a being whose innermost dynamic is likewise directed toward the receiving and giving of love.*from “God and the World,” Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger

Does that resonate with you at all? From what you have written here, I think it would…I guess what I’m stumbling about for is a confession of faith because I don’t think the concept of sin arises if there is no conciousness of a divine being.

dj
I do not know whether or not I believe in God, or for that matter whether I believe a personal God exists. All I can say it that I feel that it is possible God could exist, but I am unconvinced that Catholicism, or any other religion has a grasp on God. My inclusion of, “I will concede to you that if I did believe that any aspect of a gay relationships endangered a person’s eternal life that I would be obliged to refrain from those aspects,” was meant to demonstrate that if I believed as you do, I would certainly understand your opposition and would be glad of your correction. As I said though, I am not even sure that God exists, much less that the Catholicism is the “one true church”. The idea of a personal God is certainly very beautiful, as are many things within the Catholic Church, but that does not lead me to believe in it as you do.
 
I do not know whether or not I believe in God, or for that matter whether I believe a personal God exists. All I can say it that I feel that it is possible God could exist, but I am unconvinced that Catholicism, or any other religion has a grasp on God. My inclusion of, “I will concede to you that if I did believe that any aspect of a gay relationships endangered a person’s eternal life that I would be obliged to refrain from those aspects,” was meant to demonstrate that if I believed as you do, I would certainly understand your opposition and would be glad of your correction. As I said though, I am not even sure that God exists, much less that the Catholicism is the “one true church”. The idea of a personal God is certainly very beautiful, as are many things within the Catholic Church, but that does not lead me to believe in it as you do.
I converted three years ago and the Church is my life now. Are you familiar with Brideshead Revisited, the Evelyn Waugh story of Catholicism and social mores between the wars in England?

payingattentiontothesky.com/2010/03/12/book-and-film-recommendation-brideshead-revisited-by-evelyn-waugh/

The best film adaption was the 1980’s BBC dramatization. I saw that a few months back and then read the novel. If you haven’t read it or are unfamiliar with the story: Brideshead Revisited is the story of Charles Ryder’s college affair with the young lord, Sebastian Flyte at Oxford. Despite the difference in class and economic circumstances, Charles becomes almost a member of the family, Catholic peers of the realm, meeting Lord Marchmain on a trip to Italy with Sebastian and Lady Marchmain (Sebastian’s mother and father are divorced) and 20 years later has an affair with Sebastian’s younger sister, Julia. This all happens in the period between the two World Wars before England’s landed gentry had declined.

More than a novel of manners and social class, Brideshead also shows the Catholicism of the Flyte family through the eyes of the pagan Charles Ryder and the struggles that the four children (Bridey, Sebastian, Julia and Cordelia) have living in harmony with their faith. It ultimately is the story of Ryder’s conversion to faith on the eve of the Normandy landings.

I was always struck by this exchange:

"Sebastian’s faith was an enigma to me at that time, but not one which I felt particularly concerned to solve. I had no religion. I was taken to church weekly as a child, and at school attended chapel daily, but, as though in compensation, from the time I went to my public school I was excused church in the holidays. The view implicit in my education was that the basic narrative of Christianity had long been exposed as a myth, and that opinion was now divided as to whether its ethical teaching was of present value, a division in which the main weight went against it; religion was a hobby with some people professed and other did not; at the best it was slightly ornamental, at the worst it was the province of “complexes” and “inhibitions” — catchwords of the decade — and of the intolerance, hypocrisy, and sheer stupidity attributed to it for centuries. No one had ever suggested to me that these quaint observances expressed a coherent philosophic system and intransigent historical claims; nor had they done so, would I have been much interested.

Often, almost daily, since I had known Sebastian, some chance word in his conversation had reminded me that he was a Catholic, but I took it as a foible, like his Teddy-bear. We never discussed the matter until on the second Sunday at Brideshead, when Father Phipps had left us and we sat in the colonnade with the papers, he surprised me by saying: “Oh dear, it’s very difficult being a Catholic.”

“Does it make much difference to you?”

“Of course. All the time.”

“Well, I can’t say I’ve noticed it. Are you struggling against temptation? You don’t seem much more virtuous than me.”

“I’m very, very much wickeder,” said Sebastian indignantly.

“Well then?”

“Who was it used to pray, ‘Oh God, make me good, but not yet’?”

“I don’t know…You, I should think.”

“Why, yes, I do, every day. But it isn’t that.” He turned back to the pages of the News of the World and said, “Another naughty scout-master.”

“I suppose they try and make you believe an awful lot of nonsense?”

“Is it nonsense? I wish it were. It sometimes sounds terribly sensible to me.”

“But, my dear Sebastian, you can’t seriously believe it all.”

“Can’t I?”

“I mean about Christmas and the star and the three kings and ox and the ***.”

“Oh yes, I believe that It’s a lovely idea”

**“But you can’t believe things because they’re a lovely idea”

“But I do! That’s how I believe.”**

I was always a bit mystified when they would refer to the Christmas story as the “Greatest Story Ever Told” and then one day I realized nothing could be truer. I understand the need of others to approach everything through the modernity of science etc but for some of us (Sebastian and myself) I think we find it all in the idea: it IS a lovely idea and if you can embrace it you will find all the love you will ever need.

God bless you Kevin

dj
 
So you know, there is not an iota of “social research” referenced in that opinion column.

But if you actually have any on the harm done to children by gay parents, I would be very interested in it.
I’m sorry I wasn’t claiming there was. The two articles that follow it quote research papers however. There is also this:

"An overwhelming body of social science research shows that children do best when raised by their own biological mother and father who are committed to one another in a lifelong marriage. Research specifically on children of homosexuals has major methodological problems, but does show specific differences.

Few findings in the social sciences have been more definitively demonstrated than the fact that children do best when raised by their own married mother and father. The non-partisan research group Child Trends summarized the evidence this way:

Research clearly demonstrates that family structure matters for children, and the family structure that helps the most is a family headed by two biological parents who are in a low-conflict marriage. Kristin Anderson Moore, et al., 2002. “Marriage from a Child’s Perspective: How Does Family Structure Affect Children and What Can We Do About It?”, Child Trends Research Brief (Washington, D.C.: Child Trends) (June): 1 (available at childtrends.org/PDF/MarriageRB602.pdf).

Homosexual activists say that having both a mother and a father does not matter — it is having two loving parents that counts. But social science research simply does not support this claim. Dr. Kyle Pruett of Yale Medical School, for example, has demonstrated in his book Fatherneed that fathers contribute to parenting in ways that mothers do not. Kyle D. Pruett, Fatherneed: Why Father Care is as Essential as Mother Care for Your Child (New York: The Free Press, 2000). On the other hand, Dr. Brenda Hunter has documented the unique contributions that mothers make in her book, The Power of Mother Love. Brenda Hunter, The Power of Mother Love: Transforming Both Mother and Child (Colorado Springs: Waterbrook Press, 1997).

The truth is that most research on “homosexual parents” thus far has been marred by serious methodological problems. Robert Lerner and Althea K. Nagai, No Basis: What the Studies Don’t Tell Us About Same Sex Parenting (Washington: Ethics and Public Policy Center, 2001). However, even pro-myth 7 – footnotes homosexual sociologists Judith Stacey and Timothy Biblarz report that the actual data from key studies show the “no differences” claim to be false.

Surveying the research (primarily regarding lesbians) in an American Sociological Review article in 2001, they found that:

Children of lesbians are less likely to conform to traditional gender norms.
Children of lesbians are more likely to engage in homosexual behavior.
Daughters of lesbians are “more sexually adventurous and less chaste.”
Lesbian “co-parent relationships” are more likely to break up than heterosexual marriages. Judith Stacey and Timothy J. Biblarz, “(How) Does the Sexual Orientation of Parents Matter,” American Sociological Review 66 (2001), pp. 159-83
A 1996 study by an Australian sociologist compared children raised by heterosexual married couples, heterosexual cohabiting couples and homosexual cohabiting couples. It found that the children of heterosexual married couples did the best, and children of homosexual couples did the worst, in nine of the thirteen academic and social categories measured. Sotirios Sarantakos, “Children in three contexts: Family, education and social development,” Children Australia 21, No. 3 (1996): 23-31.

The clear superiority (in outcomes for children) of households with a married, biological mother and father; the limited but revealing research on children raised by homosexual parents; and the inherent mental and physical health risks and dysfunctional behaviors associated with homosexual relationships — all of these combine to suggest that we should be exceedingly cautious about deliberately placing children in the care of homosexuals, whether through foster care, adoption, or the use of artificial reproductive technologies."

Sorry about the broken link. Google it – it’s probably still around. Most of this is not revolutionary stuff or do you find it so?

dj
 
And you feel the same about Catholic Hospitals – shut 'em down if they refuse to perform abortions or grant doctors and nurses a right of concientious objection?

I would think we could all live together, the more doctors, nurses, adoption agencies the better, wouldn’t you say? Your thinking here has me flummoxed.

dj
The government isn’t shutting them down. They are shutting themselves down because they don’t agree with the government.
 
I’m sorry I wasn’t claiming there was. The two articles that follow it quote research papers however. There is also this:

"An overwhelming body of social science research shows that children do best when raised by their own biological mother and father who are committed to one another in a lifelong marriage. Research specifically on children of homosexuals has major methodological problems, but does show specific differences.

Few findings in the social sciences have been more definitively demonstrated than the fact that children do best when raised by their own married mother and father. The non-partisan research group Child Trends summarized the evidence this way:

Research clearly demonstrates that family structure matters for children, and the family structure that helps the most is a family headed by two biological parents who are in a low-conflict marriage. Kristin Anderson Moore, et al., 2002. “Marriage from a Child’s Perspective: How Does Family Structure Affect Children and What Can We Do About It?”, Child Trends Research Brief (Washington, D.C.: Child Trends) (June): 1 (available at childtrends.org/PDF/MarriageRB602.pdf).

Homosexual activists say that having both a mother and a father does not matter — it is having two loving parents that counts. But social science research simply does not support this claim. Dr. Kyle Pruett of Yale Medical School, for example, has demonstrated in his book Fatherneed that fathers contribute to parenting in ways that mothers do not. Kyle D. Pruett, Fatherneed: Why Father Care is as Essential as Mother Care for Your Child (New York: The Free Press, 2000). On the other hand, Dr. Brenda Hunter has documented the unique contributions that mothers make in her book, The Power of Mother Love. Brenda Hunter, The Power of Mother Love: Transforming Both Mother and Child (Colorado Springs: Waterbrook Press, 1997).

The truth is that most research on “homosexual parents” thus far has been marred by serious methodological problems. Robert Lerner and Althea K. Nagai, No Basis: What the Studies Don’t Tell Us About Same Sex Parenting (Washington: Ethics and Public Policy Center, 2001). However, even pro-myth 7 – footnotes homosexual sociologists Judith Stacey and Timothy Biblarz report that the actual data from key studies show the “no differences” claim to be false.

Surveying the research (primarily regarding lesbians) in an American Sociological Review article in 2001, they found that:

Children of lesbians are less likely to conform to traditional gender norms.
Children of lesbians are more likely to engage in homosexual behavior.
Daughters of lesbians are “more sexually adventurous and less chaste.”
Lesbian “co-parent relationships” are more likely to break up than heterosexual marriages. Judith Stacey and Timothy J. Biblarz, “(How) Does the Sexual Orientation of Parents Matter,” American Sociological Review 66 (2001), pp. 159-83
A 1996 study by an Australian sociologist compared children raised by heterosexual married couples, heterosexual cohabiting couples and homosexual cohabiting couples. It found that the children of heterosexual married couples did the best, and children of homosexual couples did the worst, in nine of the thirteen academic and social categories measured. Sotirios Sarantakos, “Children in three contexts: Family, education and social development,” Children Australia 21, No. 3 (1996): 23-31.

The clear superiority (in outcomes for children) of households with a married, biological mother and father; the limited but revealing research on children raised by homosexual parents; and the inherent mental and physical health risks and dysfunctional behaviors associated with homosexual relationships — all of these combine to suggest that we should be exceedingly cautious about deliberately placing children in the care of homosexuals, whether through foster care, adoption, or the use of artificial reproductive technologies."

Sorry about the broken link. Google it – it’s probably still around. Most of this is not revolutionary stuff or do you find it so?

dj
I have also seen many studies that show healthy children from both gay and straight couples. I don’t really want to get into a “show me your study” discussion, but there is one point I find interesting:

In the court case here in Cali, from what I have read, the defense (those supporting a ban on gay marriage) had every opportunity to support their case, as well as what I am lead to believe was a healthy defense fund. Meaning they were not held back by lack of defense funding. This case was the opportune time to defend hetero-only marriage with all the evidence/studies/expert testimony that they could muster. My understanding was that they had a near complete absence of testimony, and a very limited selection of evidence presented. I can only surmise that this was because they understood any further testimony or evidence to not be sound enough to stand up on a cross examination by the prosecution. If not at this trial, why would they hold any of this information back? I find this telling that many of the arguments to be made were not defensible in a legal context. Any thoughts?
 
I converted three years ago and the Church is my life now. Are you familiar with Brideshead Revisited, the Evelyn Waugh story of Catholicism and social mores between the wars in England?



I was always a bit mystified when they would refer to the Christmas story as the “Greatest Story Ever Told” and then one day I realized nothing could be truer. I understand the need of others to approach everything through the modernity of science etc but for some of us (Sebastian and myself) I think we find it all in the idea: it IS a lovely idea and if you can embrace it you will find all the love you will ever need.

God bless you Kevin

dj
dj,

Thank you very much for the link. I don’t think you should expect my conversion anytime time soon, because even if I were to find Catholicism more persuasive, there are quite a few things I would have to settle before I could rejoin the Church. That being said, I would not be foolish enough to say my conversion is totally out of the question since I would like to think that I am open to listening to all ideas and beliefs. Your kind discourse has been much appreciated and if nothing else has been accomplished, you have piqued my interest in a new novel. 😃

Peace,
Kevin
 
Careful now or I’ll start singing Strawberry Swamp to you too. Josef Pieper made a business out of interpreting the great Saint. He never mentioned the meaning of the words had changed…

One such book on happiness is here (reading selections):

payingattentiontothesky.com/2010/08/20/book-recommendation-happiness-and-contemplation-by-josef-pieper/

dj
Huh? I don’t think the media, and 99.999% of the world know Pieper, let alone his work and his interpretations. To try to dismiss my point that the world and St Thomas don’t share the same understanding of love, good, etc. by pointing to Pieper’s work, doesn’t hold a drop of water.

The world doesn’t understand the meaning of love as interpreted by St Thomas. To the world, love is a feeling, emotion, attraction, a high, desire, even today, sadly this strange notion of “reciprocal love”…If I you love me…I will love you…like some balanced legal agreement, “irreconcilable differences”. Same with words/notions like happiness and goodness. Don’t get me started.

To St Thomas love was Jesus on the Cross, kenosis, self donation, self-giving, free gift. etc.
 
dj,

Thank you very much for the link. I don’t think you should expect my conversion anytime time soon, because even if I were to find Catholicism more persuasive, there are quite a few things I would have to settle before I could rejoin the Church. That being said, I would not be foolish enough to say my conversion is totally out of the question since I would like to think that I am open to listening to all ideas and beliefs. Your kind discourse has been much appreciated and if nothing else has been accomplished, you have piqued my interest in a new novel. 😃

Peace,
Kevin
The reference to conversion was to explain more about myself rather than my expectations for you. Recent converts are sort of a strange subgroup of Catholics and their stories can be quite interesting. This is one fellow I found to be so:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/07/30/conversion-stories-my-bright-abyss/

Find the DVDs of the 1980s miniseries. It’s really quite good and at the time was must-see tv.

“There are quite a few things I would have to settle before I could rejoin the Church.” Whatever those things are, check them all out again because I found Church administrators can be a decidedly unreliable bunch. The first woman I spoke to in Boston almost caused me to reconsider joining the Church. Happily I survived to speak to a wonderful priest who put me on the right path.

dj
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top