What is the "good news"?

[meltzerboy]

Dear friend, Steve.

I genuinely believe there is a flaw in the logic of original sin and it is not the true teaching of Jesus.

I am here to discuss this with you all in order that you may be drawn closer to Jesus, not to doctrine.

Why would God need to humble Himself and sacrifice Himself in order to rectify a “flaw” in the system in which He created in the first place?
Original sin wreaks of an imperfect creation in the first place…

The doctrine does not satisfy the conditions and perfections which Christianity and Jesus Himself places God under. When thoroughly and intellectually analysed, it either breaks apart itself, or breaks God apart as someone severely flawed and imperfect.

I’m here to explore this with you all

.

Judaism believes that mankind, though imperfect, is not fallen. The very fact that Adam and Eve disobeyed G-d even in the Garden of Eden, where they had everything, illustrates their lack of perfection, but it also illustrates the fact they acted on the free will that G-d bestowed upon them, and, in this sense, were created better than perfect. And just as they had the free will to disobey G-d, they also had the free will to atone for their disobedience. Repentance (returning to G-d), that is, by seeking forgiveness and making amends in one’s behavior, is the principal means of atonement according to Jewish law, and this is possible by exercising one’s free will. Thus, while G-d previously called His creation “good,” it was only on the last day of creation, during which G-d created mankind with free will, that He called His creation “very good.”

 

[GaryTaylor]

"Why would God need to humble Himself and sacrifice Himself in order to rectify a “flaw” in the system in which He created in the first place?
Original sin wreaks of an imperfect creation in the first place…

The doctrine does not satisfy the conditions and perfections which Christianity and Jesus Himself places God under. When thoroughly and intellectually analysed, it either breaks apart itself, or breaks God apart as someone severely flawed and imperfect."

Bahá’u’lláh said:

All-praise to the unity of God, and all-honor to Him, the sovereign Lord, the incomparable and all-glorious Ruler of the universe, Who, out of utter nothingness, hath created the reality of all things, Who, from naught, hath brought into being the most refined and subtle elements of His creation, and Who, rescuing His creatures from the abasement of remoteness and the perils of ultimate extinction, hath received them into His kingdom of incorruptible glory. Nothing short of His all-encompassing grace, His all-pervading mercy, could have possibly achieved it.

“Who, rescuing His creatures from the abasement of remoteness and the perils of ultimate extinction,”

"Why would God need to humble Himself and sacrifice Himself in order to rectify a “flaw” in the system in which He created in the first place?
Original sin wreaks of an imperfect creation in the first place…

The doctrine does not satisfy the conditions and perfections of God"

 

[GaryTaylor]

Servant19

also Baha’l said…

“The door of the knowledge of the Ancient Being [God] hath ever been, and will continue to be, closed in the face of men. No man’s understanding shall ever gain access unto His holy court. As a token of His mercy, however, and as a proof of His loving-kindness, He hath manifested unto men the Day Stars of His divine guidance, the Symbols of His divine unity, and hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical with the knowledge of His own Self.”

This is where you deny Jesus Christ is God, and we say He is God identical with the knowledge of His own Self.

Baha’l said…

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth… He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God”

The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self, which we call the Second Person Trinity. .

Next to this testimony is His Revelation. which we call the Public Revelation of Jesus Christ and since you believe morality is an objective evidence of God my point stands above of which you have no comparison of Jesus Christ who you acknowledge existed. Amen

For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth…AMEN the Living God.

He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God…Music

God ;loves us so much He sent His Son, The Word of God, who…" Who, rescuing His creatures from the abasement of remoteness and the perils of ultimate extinction,"

God loves you so much He suffered for your iniquity.

Servent19, He didn’t need to do anything, what He did He did in Love, all of it.

Jesus Christ with the amazing morality He spread to the world and with free will the standing offering of Divine Mercy and eternal salvation asked one question…Who do you say I am?

 

[Servant19]

If you believe that you do not have a full grasp of the concept then why do you feel you can criticize it? Wouldn’t that be better done after you have a full grasp of the concept? Should I make a critique of Buddhist beliefs before I really even know what those beliefs are?

Well, unfortunately, many times our “feelings” are not correct. The Catholic Church understands the concept very well.

I don’t feel I am criticising dear friend. I am questioning its logical context and how it is the foundation to attitudes of Christian exclusivity and elitism. Problems which contribute to oppression and injustice in THIS world…you may have guessed it, but I am interested in resolving the problems of THIS world sustainably. Christianity seems to feel that humans are incapable of doing this and are waiting for Jesus to come and create a NEW world, whenever that will be, but we have been waiting since Paul was waiting over 1900 years ago, and yet the world still suffers the same problems…THIS world…

Is there a flaw in God’s design which allows innocent infants to be born with a genetic disease inherited from a parent which may result in their death? How do you explain that?

Two points need to be raised here dear friend:

1. How do we know that genetic disease is a flaw in God’s design and not a thing of our own doing?
2. And this is more important than point 1. God is merciful and just. Any sufferings encountered in this world through no fault of our own is recompensed a million fold in the spiritual realm.

You seem to think that the God’s creation is limited to this physical world. It is not. Human suffering in this world benefits the soul of man. This is the “design” that God has created, not a design of injustice in this world AND the next world, which is what original sin is all about…suffering here and injustice in the afterlife for all the billions of souls before Jesus arrival…

Your statement is predicated on the assumption that it is a flaw. I don’t agree in the least with that assumption.

So you obviously are veiled from seeing the flaw…

No, because Christ has defeated sin. We will no longer be disposed toward sin after our purification and entrance into the life of God.

…you may have misunderstood what I was asking here. I was asking why did God not create the new Jerusalem in the first place? It would have been more just…

Do you have children? What is absolutely evident in all children is that they must learn to give up their selfish desires. When a small child sees a toy that they desire it is not uncommon for them to rip it out of the arms of another child and take it as their own. When they are hungry they will cry until they are fed, no matter how tired the poor mother may be. A child must be taught to share, to sacrifice for others… to love. And we must do this with patience. But the entire life of a child revolves around satisfying his innate desires and this carries into adulthood if not addressed early on. Love requires sacrifice and sacrifice is not easy, nor is it natural. Actually, it is supernatural.

Steve, dear friend, the most important words you mention here are “learn” and “taught”
Children LEARN selflessness (which they resonate with internally) and how to manifest that quality of the soul
Children LEARN patience (which they resonate with internally) and how to manifest that when they are hungry.
Children LEARN love and how to manifest it in practice.

Children are not born as murderers, which they have to UN-learn
Children are not born rapists, which they have to UN-learn
Children are not born promiscuous, which they have to UN-learn…

If by original sin, we are talking about the physical human nature and its needs which are sometimes overpowering, and the human ego, then I believe in it. But these qualities have not been removed by Jesus, they were around when Abraham was on earth and they always will be around. It is the job of the Prophets and Messengers to give guidance on how we can overcome our egoistic nature and overpower it with our spiritual nature…

Baptism carries a responsibility. It is not a matter of waving a wand and “poof” we have a perfect Christian. We must live out our Baptismal calling as children of God. Again, we can choose to reject the grace received in Baptism, and, unfortunately we do this every time we sin. But God has provided a way to restore that grace through his sacraments.

Dear friend, if baptism requires humans to become responsible and overpower their irresponsible animal nature with the spiritual quality of responsibility, then what purpose does it serve?

I know plenty of responsible atheists…

When you say “we must live out our baptismal calling as children of God”, what does that look like. What does a truly baptised Christian do? What are his/her responsibilities after baptism?

We all sin, do all Christians therefore reject the grace received in baptism?

So the sacraments make you sinless?
Why has there been a plethora of heinous crimes committed by Catholics who have received a lifetime of sacraments?

I apologise if these are hard questions, but I hope I am asking them with courtesy and I hope that you understand that these are questions we should ALL be asking if we are to be true to God and our relationship with Him…

God bless you and your noble faith in Jesus

.

 

[Servant19]

Servant19

also Baha’l said…

“The door of the knowledge of the Ancient Being [God] hath ever been, and will continue to be, closed in the face of men. No man’s understanding shall ever gain access unto His holy court. As a token of His mercy, however, and as a proof of His loving-kindness, He hath manifested unto men the Day Stars of His divine guidance, the Symbols of His divine unity, and hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical with the knowledge of His own Self.”

This is where you deny Jesus Christ is God, and we say He is God identical with the knowledge of His own Self.

Baha’l said…

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth… He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God”

The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self, which we call the Second Person Trinity. .

Next to this testimony is His Revelation. which we call the Public Revelation of Jesus Christ and since you believe morality is an objective evidence of God my point stands above of which you have no comparison of Jesus Christ who you acknowledge existed. Amen

For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth…AMEN the Living God.

He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God…Music

God ;loves us so much He sent His Son, The Word of God, who…" Who, rescuing His creatures from the abasement of remoteness and the perils of ultimate extinction,"

God loves you so much He suffered for your iniquity.

Servent19, He didn’t need to do anything, what He did He did in Love, all of it.

Jesus Christ with the amazing morality He spread to the world and with free will the standing offering of Divine Mercy and eternal salvation asked one question…Who do you say I am?

Thankyou for this Gary.

I will hopefully discuss some of the points you raise here in the next day or two…its a very busy weekend dear friend

You enjoy your weekend

.

 

[Servant19]

“Krishna” is a part of the Hindu religion. If I were to answer this it would be with a direct attack against the idea of Krishna, and the Hindu religion, where it came from and what it is based on. I’m not going there.

They sure can offer it! The difference is who can deliver.

And I can give you plenty that describe an atheism.

All humans, by fact of being human, are eternal in the sense that they won’t cease to exist, however, the eternal life Jesus talks of isn’t just eternal existence. And, yes, all people have always had a chance to faithe on God, not all did.

Now you are speaking for these people? I have no comeback to imagined dialogue.

No, Moses was used by God, with his will, to deliver the Israelites out of Egypt and to est. a covenant between the chosen people and God. God was their Saviour and Moses was a messiah and type of The Messiah.

Because that is specifically what He taught, and specifically what He proved by being born of a virgin, living a sin-free life, dying, and raising 3 days later.

Short answer: It depends. Long answer: It depends on their level of knowledge. God will judge us on what we know and respond to, not what we don’t know.

Indeed righteous OT saints had faith and are hence with God in Heaven. They aren’t denied anything beyond Abraham’s bosom, they are currently in Heaven with God.

The church is different. God is a covenant making God; His covenant with the Jewish people is not the same covenant I’m a part of. Jesus was the fulfillment of the old, and the Institute of the new. Just because the covenant is different doesn’t mean the destination is. The OT saints are in Heaven.

Dearest Kliska,

Please enjoy your weekend

 

[SteveVH]

I don’t feel I am criticising dear friend. I am questioning its logical context and how it is the foundation to attitudes of Christian exclusivity and elitism. Problems which contribute to oppression and injustice in THIS world…you may have guessed it, but I am interested in resolving the problems of THIS world sustainably.

Whereas Christians view the world through heavenly colored glasses, the Baha’i view the world through worldly glasses. Salvation to a Baha’i means a just human government. Salvation to a Christian means eternal life in the family of God.

Christianity seems to feel that humans are incapable of doing this and are waiting for Jesus to come and create a NEW world, whenever that will be, but we have been waiting since Paul was waiting over 1900 years ago, and yet the world still suffers the same problems…THIS world…

Which should give you a clue that humans really are incapable of doing this. We have tried since the beginning of time, and, as you say, the world still suffers the same problems. The Baha’i wish to continue down this road. The Christian knows, as Jesus told us, that we will always have the poor and so we relieve suffering where we find it and look forward to a new heaven and a new earth where every tear will be wiped away. Only God can accomplish this.

 

[SteveVH]

Two points need to be raised here dear friend:

1. How do we know that genetic disease is a flaw in God’s design and not a thing of our own doing?

I didn’t say that genetic disease is a flaw in Gods plan anymore than original sin is a flaw in God’s plan. They both stem from “our own doing”. You just made my point.

1. And this is more important than point 1. God is merciful and just. Any sufferings encountered in this world through no fault of our own is recompensed a million fold in the spiritual realm.

On this we agree. It is part of our purification and can happen in this life and/or in the next life before we enter into eternal life with God. Our reward is called “heaven”.

You seem to think that the God’s creation is limited to this physical world.

No, that is not at all what think. I believe that everything that exists, both in heaven and on earth was created by God, things visible and invisible. So please don’t put words in my mouth.

 

[SteveVH]

So you obviously are veiled from seeing the flaw…

This is the post to which you were responding:

Originaly Posted by SteveVH
Your statement is predicated on the assumption that it is a flaw. I don’t agree in the least with that assumption.

Why? Because I don’t agree with your position I am “obviously veiled from seeing the flaw”. Are you infallible? If this is not an elitist attitude I don’t know what is.

…you may have misunderstood what I was asking here. I was asking why did God not create the new Jerusalem in the first place? It would have been more just…

He did. It was called Eden.

If by original sin, we are talking about the physical human nature and its needs which are sometimes overpowering, and the human ego, then I believe in it.

What you are describing are the consequences of original sin. It is called concupiscence; the human tendency toward sin. When we were created our spirit informed our intellect (soul) which then controlled our flesh. When we suffered spiritual death, through sin, our flesh began controlling our intellect (soul). The world was turned upside down. We now here the common human cry “I just don’t have any will power”. And they are right. Rather than our will controlling our flesh, instead our will submits to our flesh and we fall into sin. Sin is, at its root, the turning of our eyes to the created rather than the Creator.

But it all started with spiritual death. That was the consequence of the original sin and it affected human nature itself. I commend you for at least acknowledging the evidence in front of us each and every day that the human condition is flawed and that evil exists in the world. And this flaw is not the design of God, but the failure of a free willed, rational being who is capable also of choosing love. This being, created in the image and likeness of God was both tempted and deceived by another being, also created with free will, named Lucifer, an angle of light, in fact the most beautiful of angels. God did not create devils. He created beings who became devils of their own free will.

My point in all of this is that we have been in a spiritual battle since Lucifer was thrown out of heaven. His desire is to take as many of God’s children with him as possible. All of the suffering and evil on earth is due to this spiritual battle which manifests in our physical world as well. Hatred, envy, pride, jealousy, selfishness, brutality, sickness, death… the list goes on.

That is why no human effort, no great human government and system of justice, will ever bring an end to human suffering. It is not a physical battle. It is a spiritual battle and that battle has been won, in eternity, while still being fought in time and space. Christ has defeated sin and death. That is why the Christian finds the Baha’i notion that we must look to another, as Christ’s time has come and gone, completely unconvincing. Who can offer us more than the One who has already won the victory?

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, dear friend, the most important words you mention here are “learn” and “taught”
Children LEARN selflessness (which they resonate with internally) and how to manifest that quality of the soul
Children LEARN patience (which they resonate with internally) and how to manifest that when they are hungry.
Children LEARN love and how to manifest it in practice.

Children are not born as murderers, which they have to UN-learn
Children are not born rapists, which they have to UN-learn
Children are not born promiscuous, which they have to UN-learn…

No. Children are not born murderers. But they are born with pride and envy and those things, which if not brought under control can lead to murder.

No., children are not born rapists, but they are born with the capability for violence and if not taught about the dignity of each person can lead to rape.

No, children are not born promiscuous, but they are born with a sexual drive that if not taught about in terms of its meaning within God’s plan, can certainly lead to promiscuity.

 

[SteveVH]

Dear friend, if baptism requires humans to become responsible and overpower their irresponsible animal nature with the spiritual quality of responsibility, then what purpose does it serve?

If marriage requires humans to be faithful to each other and to love one another in times of sickness and in health then what purpose does it serve?

Through Baptism our spiritual life is restored. That is not the end of the story but rather the beginning of the story. We are then called to spread the kingdom of God through Christ dwelling within us. Yes, absolutely Baptism carries with it certain responsibilities and obligations, just like being married does.

I know plenty of responsible atheists…

And… Did I say that the purpose of Baptism was to make us responsible people? No. I said we must be responsible to our obligations as Baptized Christians.

When you say “we must live out our baptismal calling as children of God”, what does that look like. What does a truly baptised Christian do? What are his/her responsibilities after baptism?

It means to love God with all our heart and mind and strength and to love our neighbors as ourselves.

We all sin, do all Christians therefore reject the grace received in baptism?

Yes, to varying degrees depending upon the sin. When we commit serious sin (murder, adultery, etc.) we completely reject God’s grace and are left spiritually dead once again. But God is merciful and calls us back and has provided the sacraments, doors to the sacred, channels of grace, so that we might once again be joined with him. We are absolved from our sins and then once again are united with him in the Eucharist.

So the sacraments make you sinless?

Our sins are absolved in the sacrament of Reconciliation, as well as in the Mass. Do not confuse having one’s sins forgiven with rendering the person incapable of committing sin in the future. It is why we must return again and again to the sacraments, even while growing in holiness. It is how we grow in holiness.

Why has there been a plethora of heinous crimes committed by Catholics who have received a lifetime of sacraments?

A plethora of heinous crimes, huh? You mean out of the billions of Catholics that have walked the earth we have had some of have committed heinous crimes or do you want to characterize this as a Catholic trait?

In any regard, the reason some Catholics have committed heinous crimes is because they suffer from the same human weaknesses as do Baha’is, and when they do not put their faith in practice they suffer the same fate as do non-Catholics who commit heinous crimes.

The sacraments are not a magic wand, Servant. They do not take away our human passions, rather they help us overcome them. When we are in need of forgiveness they provide the means for that forgiveness. When we wish to embrace our Savior, they provide the means for us to do that. When we are in need of healing, they are the balm. They do not take away our humanness. They join it with the divine.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

( “…*”: for the sake of space).

…2. And this is more important than point 1. God is merciful and just. Any sufferings encountered in this world through no fault of our own is recompensed a million fold in the spiritual realm.

The Baha’i God is merciful, but he is not just. We are sinners, born corrupt, and deserve
nothing safe one thing: Death. Jesus came and paid the price for us so that we who have
trust in what he did for us don’t have to pay that price. Islam and the Baha’i Faith believe
not this fundamental point in our relationship with God. Also, ALL suffering is our fault, all
our fault. Had it not been for humans, God’s creation would be perfect, but we allowed sin
to come and corrupt everything that God has made, and that is where justice needs to be
enacted against all.

You seem to think that the God’s creation is limited to this physical world. It is not. Human suffering in this world benefits the soul of man. This is the “design” that God has created,…*

You think human suffering is part of God’s desires for us? like it was an intended part of
creation? Such is not the case. In a way suffering is good, it humbles our souls, making
us turn to God, but it was never intended from the beginning, that was our fault. Original
Sin came when Man placed his own judgement above God’s, and from that Original Sin,
Death and Suffering came into the world.
And you bring up again that “injustice in the afterlife for all the billions of souls be–
fore Jesus arrival” card? I think we’ve been over this. First off, God is just, whatever
he wills is completely just, how dare any of us question the will of God, & Second,
they who lived before Jesus came were delivered from captivity in Sheol by Jesus.
Did you forget?

…you may have misunderstood what I was asking here. I was asking why did God not create the new Jerusalem in the first place? It would have been more just…

Be-… …-cause it wouldn’t then be NEW Jerusalem…?
Sin and the Devil had not been totally eradicated yet, so the New Jerusalem will have to
wait until then, after the end of the world. Again: Who are we to question the very God?!

Steve, dear friend, the most important words you mention here are “learn” and “taught”
Children LEARN selflessness (which they resonate with internally) and how to manifest that quality of the soul
Children LEARN patience (which they resonate with internally) and how to manifest that when they are hungry.
Children LEARN love and how to manifest it in practice.
…*

We are all born sinful with the potential to sin. I think now you are getting confused
as to the physical abilities of humans at a particular age. Babies are not big enough
to murder, do not have fully matured genitals with which to rape, and promiscuous?
Can you please be a little more realistic than that?

If by original sin, we are talking about the physical human nature and its needs which are sometimes overpowering, and the human ego, then I believe in it. But these qualities have not been removed by Jesus…*

OF COURSE THEY WERE AROUND WHEN ABRAHAM WAS ON EARTH! That is be–
cause the Original Sin began long before Abraham. You told me that you read the Bible,
well do you really? Now of course the symptoms of sin haven’t yet been removed totally
by Jesus, but that’s not what he came to do. He came that we can be forgiven of these
sins. When one receives the Grace of God also, we want to sin as little as possible.
And the job of prophets, they were to teach people that there’s only One God, how God
is to be worshiped, that we are to repent of our sins, and so forth, but your definition of
a prophet sounds more like Marshall Applewhite, it really does.

Dear friend, if baptism requires humans to become responsible and overpower their irresponsible animal nature with the spiritual quality of responsibility, then what purpose does it serve?

Baptism doesn’t do that exactly, but it makes forgiveness of our sins possible. Going
back also to the Grace of God, many who are devout will actually WANT to avoid sin.
We may stumble, trip, and fall into sin, but we who are saved by Grace don’t want to
sin and will do much to avoid it, if you so want God to be practical.

We all sin, do all Christians therefore reject the grace received in baptism?

No, we are all fallible creatures so we do make mistakes.
Baptism is for repentance and salvation, from what though?
SIN, if there is no sin, then there’s no need, but sin is real,
so it is needed.

So the sacraments make you sinless?
Why has there been a plethora of heinous crimes committed by Catholics who have received a lifetime of sacraments?

Absolutely no, the sacraments don’t make us sinless, but it covers our sins, show
that we have sought forgiveness and thus are forgiven. We are, again, fallible crea–
tures, we will always sin until the Last Day, but in Christ we can find mercy. Baha’i
and Muslims believe that we can go straight to God, without any prior covering for
sin, come in sinful nature, and thus take God’s mercy for granted. That is unbeliev-
ably arrogant.
Here is a little figurative story:When each of us die, we will stand before God. Jesus and Satan will
be there too. Satan will then accuse us of all our sins, giving God ev-
ery good reason to send us off to Hell in a hand-basket. When Jesus
has his turn, he will say of those who had faith in him and his sacrif–
ice that his blood covers them because they believed, because they
gave themselves up to the will of the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit.
Are you covered in the Blood of Jesus, shed for the many who believe on him?

 

[Servant19]

What sources outside Baha’l do you have beside the Quran and Bible etc? Each one denounces the other as the objective truth.

What do you have that Baha’l has, outside objective evidence in this regard? Who verifys anything you say is true and is objective evidence, you? Certainly not any of the faiths you read sola scripture into.

Its a Straw man.

There is tremendous historical proofs of the events of the Baha’i Faith’s history which have been ratified by non-Bahai sources. Its the most authentic independent religion to date.
Just a quick visit down to the British library will give you evidence aplenty.

For online resources, the books of Cambridge orientalist, Edward G. Brown will be a starting point…

No straw man at all

 

[Servant19]

"Why would God need to humble Himself and sacrifice Himself in order to rectify a “flaw” in the system in which He created in the first place?
Original sin wreaks of an imperfect creation in the first place…

The doctrine does not satisfy the conditions and perfections which Christianity and Jesus Himself places God under. When thoroughly and intellectually analysed, it either breaks apart itself, or breaks God apart as someone severely flawed and imperfect."

Bahá’u’lláh said:

All-praise to the unity of God, and all-honor to Him, the sovereign Lord, the incomparable and all-glorious Ruler of the universe, Who, out of utter nothingness, hath created the reality of all things, Who, from naught, hath brought into being the most refined and subtle elements of His creation, and Who, rescuing His creatures from the abasement of remoteness and the perils of ultimate extinction, hath received them into His kingdom of incorruptible glory. Nothing short of His all-encompassing grace, His all-pervading mercy, could have possibly achieved it.

“Who, rescuing His creatures from the abasement of remoteness and the perils of ultimate extinction,”

"Why would God need to humble Himself and sacrifice Himself in order to rectify a “flaw” in the system in which He created in the first place?
Original sin wreaks of an imperfect creation in the first place…

The doctrine does not satisfy the conditions and perfections of God"

Hi Gary,

Nowhere do I say that we do not have the free will to reject the ordinances and admonitions and teachings of the Messenger of God and be consumed by our animal nature and desires.

The Messenger of God comes to attract us to our “higher” nature, the real truth of what it means to be a human being. We have free will. That is what Baha’u’llah is saying here. When we exercise our free will we have the choice to live by the divine laws or reject them.
When we live by the divine laws we have “elevated” ourselves or “saved” ourselves from the animal nature.

All Messengers of God gave us this opportunity. To choose God, or ourselves.
Jesus was not the only Saviour.

The real good news is that God ALWAYS will send Messengers, to refresh and revitalise the Divine Springtime, so we may be “attracted” and “save” ourselves again…

.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

There is tremendous historical proofs of the events of the Baha’i Faith’s history which have been ratified by non-Bahai sources. Its the most authentic independent religion to date.
Just a quick visit down to the British library will give you evidence aplenty.

For online resources, the books of Cambridge orientalist, Edward G. Brown will be a starting point…

No straw man at all

We Christians have been throwing at you Scriptures for a
while now, why not throw at us examples of what you just
said, not just sources where we can find such.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

All Messengers of God gave us this opportunity. To choose God, or ourselves.
Jesus was not the only Saviour.

The real good news is that God ALWAYS will send Messengers, to refresh and revitalise the Divine Springtime, so we may be “attracted” and “save” ourselves again…

Jesus is not the only Savior? Really?I, even I, am YHWH; and beside me there is no Saviour.

• (Isaiah 43:11)

In the beginning was the Word, and the **Word **
was with God, and the **Word **was God.

• (John 1:1)

And the **Word **was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and
we saw **his **glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten
of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

• (John 1:14)

For the law was given by Moses; grace and truth came by **
Jesus Christ**.

• (John 1:17)

Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the
great God and our Savior Jesus Christ,

• (Titus 2:13)

Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who through the righteousness of our **God
and Savior Jesus Christ **have received a faith as
precious as ours:

• (2 Peter 1:1)

But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and
Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and un-
to the day of eternity. Amen.

• (2 Peter 3:18)

to the only** God our Savior **be glory, majesty, power and
authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages,
now and forevermore! Amen.

• (Jude 1:25)
  Jesus Christ is the Word made Flesh is God is the ONLY SAVIOR.

Also on what you call “Good News,” reminder for Hebrews 1:2.

 

[GaryTaylor]

All Messengers of God gave us this opportunity. To choose God, or ourselves.
Jesus was not the only Saviour…

Jesus is God. And he gave you the choice to accept or reject Him. Thus “who do you say I am?” I don’t think you should answer that yet. :nope:

The real good news is that God ALWAYS will send Messengers, to refresh and revitalise the Divine Springtime, so we may be “attracted” and “save” ourselves again.

The bad news is only false prophets contradict Christ and add to the deposit of faith. :sad_yes:

But Baha’l is so bold they do that with Islam, the Jews, Christianity and romance Hindu and Buddhist theology but in the end reject it also, let alone the Islamic view of Gods necessity and the heretical christian view of total depravity is just a bit TOOoooo much.

Interesting story, lots of sola scripture reading going on and in all faiths.

Still waiting on this…

“There is tremendous historical proofs of the events of the Baha’i Faith’s history which have been ratified by non-Bahai sources. Its the most authentic independent religion to date.”

 

[Servant19]

We Christians have been throwing at you Scriptures for a
while now, why not throw at us examples of what you just
said, not just sources where we can find such.

…sure brother

Don’t throw Scripture mate, its the only treasures we have left

There literally is a plethora in the British Library, and the Bibliotheque Nationale in Paris…

Online stuff, here’s some links:

iranicaonline.org/articles/browne-edward-granville
amazon.com/Literary-History-Persia-Classics-Literature/dp/093634766X
bahai-library.org/books/msbr/

…and some earlier observations from Comte de Gobineau
books.google.com.au/books?id=BuDaac0rsvoC&pg=PA229&lpg=PA229&dq=comte+de+gobineau+bab&source=bl&ots=UtmfJ7QYc9&sig=auB1rzW_CJ8x3XbUqnxECbVyIC0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5nWuUq7LKOSjiAfRzYDgAg&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=comte%20de%20gobineau%20bab&f=false

Cheers

.

 

[Servant19]

Jesus is not the only Savior? Really?

I, even I, am YHWH; and beside me there is no Saviour.

• (Isaiah 43:11)

Yes, YHWH (God) is the true Saviour, and those He sends, SAVE on His behalf…

…there is no other Saviour but YHWH, God…

Jesus never said He was God…

.​

 

[Servant19]

The bad news is only false prophets contradict Christ and add to the deposit of faith. :sad_yes:

There is not one instance, dear friend, where Jesus says He is God.

Maybe those that contradict this are the false prophets?