G
GaryTaylor
Guest
No, Jesus never said the exact three words, “I am God”. But Jesus also never said the exact four words, “I am a prophet”
- Status
J
Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
But the Apostles who knew Jesus and were charged by him to go out and preach the real
Gospel to the world identified Jesus as God. John, Paul, Peter, even Jude ID Jesus as the
God of all creation, the Creator of all that exists. Why did you skip all the other verses that
I provided which prove that Jesus is God, the only Savior?
Did you not say right before this: “Don’t throw Scripture mate, its the
only treasures we have left”? You say they’re treasure, but you sure
don’t treat them as such.
Also, Jesus said, remember(?), “Before Abraham was, I AM,” then remember how the
Jews reacted? They were furious, because they understood that Jesus was identifying
himself with THE I AM, YHWH, the same that spoke to Moses from the Burning Bush.
S
Servant19
Guest
Thats exactly why assertions cannot be made either way…No, Jesus never said the exact three words, “I am God”. But Jesus also never said the exact four words, “I am a prophet”
Maybe God Himself will clarify?
Maybe a Prophet “sent from God” (who’s Spirit is well tested and thoroughly examined) will come who will clarify, not speaking His own Words, but the Words of Him who sent Him?
.
J
Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
First: Pardon the figurative language “throwing.”
You’ll have to forgive me, but that is a lot of material to sift through, plus I do not
have the money to buy that one book from Amazon. Could you then provide ex–
cepts to be read here on the forum (you may recall how I did something similar
to that before).
Anyway……sure brother
Don’t throw Scripture mate, its the only treasures we have left
There literally is a plethora in the British Library, and the Bibliotheque Nationale in Paris…
Online stuff, here’s some links:
iranicaonline.org/articles/browne-edward-granville
amazon.com/Literary-History-Persia-Classics-Literature/dp/093634766X
bahai-library.org/books/msbr/
…and some earlier observations from Comte de Gobineau
books.google.com.au/books?id=BuDaac0rsvoC&pg=PA229&lpg=PA229&dq=comte+de+gobineau+bab&source=bl&ots=UtmfJ7QYc9&sig=auB1rzW_CJ8x3XbUqnxECbVyIC0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5nWuUq7LKOSjiAfRzYDgAg&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=comte%20de%20gobineau%20bab&f=false
Cheers
You’ll have to forgive me, but that is a lot of material to sift through, plus I do not
have the money to buy that one book from Amazon. Could you then provide ex–
cepts to be read here on the forum (you may recall how I did something similar
to that before).
(I mean seriously …
…
$202.39, …
WHAT THE FRAK?)
…
$202.39, …WHAT THE FRAK?)
S
Servant19
Guest
…we can only know what we interpret to be Truth. To me there is NOTHING that I can know of God except through the Person of Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab, Baha’u’llah etc.
I know of NO OTHER GOD but these Individuals. The impact of Jesus on the lives of these Apostles was REMARKABLE.
Do me a favour brother, please…
Go look at how the Apostles were impacted by Jesus and compare with how the Apostles of Baha’u’llah were impacted by Him.
Educated Islamic scholars of Persia, those who were theological envoys to the Shah of Iran, would SHAVE OFF THEIR BEARDS (a great humiliation in Iran at that time), make brushes out of their beard hair and use it to sweep the dust outside the prison home of Baha’u’llah and dispose of the dust into the nearby river so as the holy dust cannot be polluted by anything!!
(reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/MF/)
Are you saying that these individuals did not think that Baha’u’llah was God?
Humiliating themselves like that, for the DUST trodden on by their Lord??
However, this still does not mean that Baha’ullah was God, in His essence…
Come on brother, you are an educated and intelligent being…
S
Servant19
Guest
Brother, you do not have to point out your good works to assist me with my learning here with you.First: Pardon the figurative language “throwing.”
Anyway…
You’ll have to forgive me, but that is a lot of material to sift through, plus I do not
have the money to buy that one book from Amazon. Could you then provide ex–
cepts to be read here on the forum (you may recall how I did something similar
to that before).
(I mean seriously …
…
WHAT THE FRAK?)
You can ask me to do whatever you like and I will oblige with delight!!
You are a good soul, Judas, I keep saying that because your purity shines through
I will look through some exerpts and post them up for you
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
Your premise is that he hasn’t(based on three words), mine is He has(not based on three words) and my objective evidence was the morality of God whom you agree lived and died on the Cross for you. You think He loved you?
S
Servant19
Guest
S
Servant19
Guest
[/QUOTE]
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
Bab and Baha’u’llah are God? They raised the dead, gave sight to blind, healed the afflicted, walked on water, turned water into divine wine, multiplied the food. I don’t believe it. And since these guys are from last 200 years you should have a ton of objective evidence.
J
Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
BUT THE APOSTLES SAID IT! They said that Jesus is the Creator of all things,
Heaven and Earth, things seen and unseen, all thrones, dominions, principal-
ities, and powers (classes of angels), the Eternal Creator, not just called “god”
like Moses was called “God to Pharaoh” or like judges and so forth.
Baha’u’llah was inspiring, I realize how remarkable his life story was, and I don’t
even need to click on that link to realize how he has effected the world, but many
will do extraordinary things, that would just leave one in awe, if they find a cause
worth the humility.
UNFAIR (or at least imperfect) example: Charles Manson led a crazy cult to do
unspeakable things, all from his charisma. When all were jailed, Charles had
carved an X into his forehead, his girl cult did likewise. He shaved his head, &
so did they. Manson’s girls sang joyfully to court, I even think they crawled their
way to court on one occasion, I’m not too sure about that. All for Manson.
AGAIN, UNFAIR (or at least imperfect) COMPARISON,
but the point being made is you can’t just conclude a
prophet to be true because of the humble and meek-
ness of his followers.
God did not leave us an example to follow, he gave us his Word, written in Scripture.
S
Servant19
Guest
Raised the dead, yes…
All the other “specific” stuff you mention, not sure (miracles are not asserted in the Faith, because all objective observers are now Baha’is, so its no longer objective anymore is it?)
But plenty of miracles as recorded from the memorials and recollections of countless individuals.
A collection of these can be found in these links:
reference.bahai.org/en/t/nz/DB/
reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/MF/
.
S
Servant19
Guest
And so did the Apostles of Baha’u’llah, and thats coming from an EDUCATED Islamic background where the appearance of God in human form is totally a heresy, yet they saw in Baha’u’llah, God as a theophany
I agree
Really? show me 30,000 examples of this please, and thats only a small percentage of those who were persecuted in His name…
Can you show me ONE example of this?
Charles Manson?
Really, lets not get too far ahead of ourselves brother
How do you know Jesus was not another Charles Manson?
.
J
Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
But did the Apostles of Baha’u’llah say that he created all things? That he and God
were one and the same? That by him, again, all things were made? Not just a theo-
phany.
Well first in relevance to the quote
you have from me, just extraordin-
ary things in general:
Well I already told you about the Manson Family, though I did say also
that it was at the very least an imperfect example. I would then cite the
legend about Mary Magdalene, who for the space of 30―33 years lived
as a hermit in a cave, no clothes or other convenient things. That’s just
a legend, of course. **
Now on to the persecution . . .**
I would the consider all the early Christians fed to lions, tortured in the
Colosseum, used as torches to light Nero’s garden, all for Jesus’ sake.
Also in modern times, a Christian missionary organization Open Doors
has estimated that 100 million Christians face persecution, particularly
in Muslim-dominated countries such as Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.[3][4]
I don’t want to suggest that the Christian persecution mentioned
above makes it right or wrong, but the Baha’i are by no means a
unique case.
S
Servant19
Guest
Yes, Baha’u’llah Himself affirms that there were two different sets of adherents to His Cause.
His Apostles and those nearest to Him not only thought, but KNEW He was the Creator of all things seen and unseen.
His eldest Son, Abdu’l-Baha would not go up to Him and say “Hey dad!” he would, when attended the presence of His Father, bow before Him and prostrate Himself. Baha’u’llah was the pinnacle of Lordly Majesty and Love, as attested to by Cambridge orientalist, Edward. G. Browne himself.
"Though I dimly suspected whither I was going and whom I was to behold (for no distinct intimation had been given to me), a second or two elapsed ere, with a throb of wonder and awe, I became definitely conscious that the room was not untenanted. In the corner where the divan met the wall sat a wondrous and venerable figure… The face of him on whom I gazed I can never forget, though I cannot describe it. Those piercing eyes seemed to read one’s very soul; power and authority sat on that ample brow… No need to ask in whose presence I stood, as I bowed myself before one who is the object of a devotion and love which kings might envy and emperors sigh for in vain!
A mild dignified voice bade me be seated, and then continued: ***“Praise be to God that thou hast attained!..Thou hast come to see a prisoner and an exile…We desire but the good of the world and the happiness of the nations; yet they deem us a stirrer up of strife and sedition worthy of bondage and banishment…That all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease, and differences of race be annulled – what harm is there in this?..Yet so it shall be; these fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the `Most great Peace’ shall come…Do not you in Europe need this also? Is this not what Christ foretold?..Yet do we see your kings and rulers lavishing their treasures more freely on means for the destruction of the human race than on that which would conduce to the happiness of mankind…These strifes and this bloodshed and discord must cease, and all men be as one kindred and one family…Let not a man glory in this, that he loves his country; let him rather glory in this, that he loves his kind…” ***
As I have said, you seem to be showing me the truth and devotion shown by the followers of Jesus. Yes, the followers of Jesus and the followers of Baha’u’llah exhibited the same devotion towards their Lord.
But Manson is not in that league, not even in the league of the “dust” outside their homes…
When God comes, it instills undeniable reactions which is unique in human history…
He has COME, O Lord, Rejoice!!
.
J
Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
Oy, I can say the Apostles of Jesus knew him as God and identified Jesus as the
Creator AND cite passages for your convenience (Have I not yet for that, I cannot
remember after all the passages I gave). I also googled “Baha’u’llah Creator” (No
Quotes) and found a few Baha’i sites and forums saying that “Bahá’u’lláh is, of
course, not God and not the Creator,” also in “Lights of Guidance”.
Be helpful if you brought up quotes attesting to Baha’u’llah’s
nearest disciples actually calling him the Creator of all things.
S
Servant19
Guest
Dear friend, why are you looking for passages from human beings who have finite minds making definitive declarations about who God is?
Jesus Himself never said that He is God, and HE WAS JESUS?
Were the Apostles greater than Jesus?
Did they know God better than Jesus to assign definitions upon God as if they were closer to God than Jesus Himself?
Nevertheless, Baha’u’llah did write about this in one of His Tablets as follows:
" O Jamal! On this Day it is befitting that you should exhibit such love, compassion, humility, detachment and sanctity that none of the servants (of God) may inhale from your words and deeds, the unsavoury odour of the words and deeds of past communities who, on hearing merely one word, would immediately anathematize and curse one another, for "We have created souls to be in diverse states. There are those who have attained to the highest levels of spiritual comprehension while others are different therefrom. For example, one person envisages the Unseen the Transcendent, the Inaccessible One in the Person of the Manifestation without making any distinction or connection. Others there are who recognise the Person of the Manifestation as the Appearance of God ([Himself] or theophany, and consider the commands and prohibitions of the Manifestation to be identical with such as originate with the one True God. These two positions are both acceptable before the throne of God. If however, the supporters of these two positions should contend and quarrel with one another in their exposition of the two perspectives, both groups are, and hath ever been, rejected. This inasmuch as the purpose of the spiritual understanding and the exposition of the highest levels of the elucidation of the teachings is to attract the hearts, cause fellowship between souls, and further the propagation of the Cause of God. As a result of contention and disputation amongst those who hold to these two positions, there hath been and will ever result the dissipation of the Cause of God and both groups shall return to the hellfire despite the fact that they, in their own estimation, soar in the highest horizon of spiritual understanding."
.
K
Kliska
Guest
Guys, the problem here is that you can quote scripture all day long and they deny the OT and NT are accurate, picking up the false notion the Muslims put forth that the scriptures have been tampered with, and that the Koran supersedes the Scriptures. That assertion, by the Muslims, is incorrect.
We know that anyone that denies that Jesus is the Son of God, that He is Divine, or that He has come in the flesh and raised bodily is not from God. They don’t believe that because they have bought the lie.
The same words bring life to some and death to others.
We know that anyone that denies that Jesus is the Son of God, that He is Divine, or that He has come in the flesh and raised bodily is not from God. They don’t believe that because they have bought the lie.
The same words bring life to some and death to others.
S
Servant19
Guest
Nope that’s not true at all Kliska my dear
Can you quote me where I, or any Bahai has said that please?
Can you quote me where I, or any Bahai has said that please?
K
Kliska
Guest
You don’t teach that the Koran is also the revelation of God and that since it comes later than the Bible that the Koran represents the building of progressive style revelation from God? Muslims clearly taught the same thing based on their idea that the Bible has been tampered with. While the Bahai don’t say that the scriptures were tampered with, they embrace the idea that the Koran superseded the scriptures, correct? So if I were alive during the time the Koran was being drafted and finalized I should follow the Koran, correct?Nope that’s not true at all Kliska my dear
Can you quote me where I, or any Bahai has said that please?
- Status