What is the "good news"?

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Baha’u’llah states that God “can in no wise incarnate His Essence”, so when we speak of “His Essence”, we are not speaking of His Manifestation which appears in human form.

So God is locked out of his creation? Can’t enter into it to fulfill his own agendas?
Certainly not what Paul writes to the Philippians:
For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who being
in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But em-
ptied himself, taking the form of a servant,being made in the likeness of
men, and in habit found as a man.He humbled himself, becoming obedi-
ent unto death, even to the death of the cross.
– (Philippians 2:5-8)

He who was in the “Form of God,” meaning to be AS GOD, what it means to BE GOD,
meaning that Jesus is God. The “Form of God” is an even stronger indication of Christ’s
divinity, as judges were called gods, prophets like Moses, even kings at times, however
we are talking about someone who was in THE FORM OF GOD.

We might also say that God fashions for Himself an Instrument, a Divine Pen, which is the means of His expression and communication to mankind, whether verbal or written. We do not say that this Pen which He has fashioned is God.

Yet in the case of the 12 Apostles, they knew
and died for the belief that Jesus is the Word
is the God.

From your Christian theology, you say that the “Pen” which is named Jesus is God. Baha’is do not state the position of the Manifestation of God in this way. Understand, however, that if God, through the Instrument of His Pen, says to us: “I am God”, that this is indeed the Voice of God. It is in this sense that people may refer to the Manifestation of God as God, but for Baha’is, there is always this distinction that God is not compressed into human form and appearance. He is not subject to the laws of gravity, composition, and decomposition.

So . . . God is a ventriloquist? Nope, can’t believe that God would confuse the issue like
that. God knew well, assuming he’s omniscient, that Jesus would be seen as God by a-
bout half of the world today, but if Jesus is not God, then that makes God irresponsible.

When Jesus says: “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man cometh to the Father but by Me.” this refers to the “Manifestation of God”, Who is that Way, Truth, and Life. The Sufis, for example, think that they can attain the presence of God independently from Muhammad, or Jesus, or Moses, etc. Baha’u’llah says this is not possible. This concept applies to any age or any Manifestation and to all people. Our only access to God is through Him Who is the Manifestation of God.

. Does this help?
.

If what you say is true, then Abraham, Moses, Krishna, Zoroaster, Muhammad, etc would
all had to have said that, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man cometh to the
Father but by Me,” and we would certainly have Scriptural evidence for this, as it isn’t like
God to keep us in the dark about things of the past, “For what things soever were written,
were written for our learning: that through patience and the comfort of the Scriptures, we
might have hope.” (Romans 15:4)

 

[Servant19]

So God is locked out of his creation? Can’t enter into it to fulfill his own agendas?

Yet in the case of the 12 Apostles, they knew
and died for the belief that Jesus is the Word
is the God.

So . . . God is a ventriloquist? Nope, can’t believe that God would confuse the issue like
that. God knew well, assuming he’s omniscient, that Jesus would be seen as God by a-
bout half of the world today, but if Jesus is not God, the that makes God irresponsible.

If what you say is true, then Abraham, Moses, Krishna, Zoroaster, Muhammad, etc would
all had to have said that, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man cometh to the
Father but by Me,” and we would certainly have Scriptural evidence for this, as it isn’t like
God to keep us in the dark about things of the past, “For what things soever were written,
were written for our learning: that through patience and the comfort of the Scriptures, we
might have hope.” (Romans 15:4)

Dear friend Judas. A baby is not introduced to a steak and shrimps meal with vodka to wash it down with the moment it is born. It “gradually” develops a capacity to take in more and more complex foods…as it evolves and develops…

So it is with spiritual foods. The manna from heaven is given in simple to digest quantities initially. For some populations this manna says one thing, for others it says another. There was no internet at that time for the message of God to be a universal one.

The message was catered to “advance” the population “gradually” towards the spiritual “steak sandwich”.

When a baby is in the womb, it has a very basic consciousness. It probably has no idea that a mother even exists. It has a plentiful food supply given to it by the placenta and once in a while it may hear some noises and some music, not knowing that there is a whole world out there that will take it’s consciousness into a sort of “beautific vision” when compared to its consciousness in the womb.

Consciousness and spiritual development and the knowledge of God are all related in this sense. This is a reality of life. Things develop “gradually”

Now, is God locked out of creation?

Imagine a sculptor grabbing a piece of clay with a plan to develop something beautiful with it within 10 years.
Every day it applies a stroke here, a chisel there, a smoothing overe here and there, some water, some air, etc etc
Does the sculptor need to actually become a piece of clay in order for his/her duration to develop and materialise?
No…

He is also at the same time not locked out of his creation, while at the same time, the clay will never become the sculptor.

It is said that the sculptor has adorned His perfections and attributes upon the sculpture.

So it is with Gods creation.

Why would God want to become the clay of His creation?

He can send His perfections embodied into a human being to show His Creation what He expects, so that His creation can become the perfect Sculpture, an emblem of His majesty and grace…

In fact, He doesn’t even need to create the Universe, He can create a Jesus or a Baha’u’llah “in the form of God” and “as God” to do that for Him.

And here we are, me, you and the Apostles saying that God is this and God is that.
How blasphemous and arrogant we are as Gods milk-fed babies…

 

[daler]

So God is locked out of his creation? Can’t enter into it to fulfill his own agendas?
Certainly not what Paul writes to the Philippians:
For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who being
in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But em-
ptied himself, taking the form of a servant,being made in the likeness of
men, and in habit found as a man.He humbled himself, becoming obedi-
ent unto death, even to the death of the cross.
– (Philippians 2:5-8)

He who was in the “Form of God,” meaning to be AS GOD, what it means to BE GOD,
meaning that Jesus is God. The “Form of God” is an even stronger indication of Christ’s
divinity, as judges were called gods, prophets like Moses, even kings at times, however
we are talking about someone who was in THE FORM OF GOD.

Yet in the case of the 12 Apostles, they knew
and died for the belief that Jesus is the Word
is the God.

So . . . God is a ventriloquist? Nope, can’t believe that God would confuse the issue like
that. God knew well, assuming he’s omniscient, that Jesus would be seen as God by a-
bout half of the world today, but if Jesus is not God, then that makes God irresponsible.

If what you say is true, then Abraham, Moses, Krishna, Zoroaster, Muhammad, etc would
all had to have said that, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man cometh to the
Father but by Me,” and we would certainly have Scriptural evidence for this, as it isn’t like
God to keep us in the dark about things of the past, “For what things soever were written,
were written for our learning: that through patience and the comfort of the Scriptures, we
might have hope.” (Romans 15:4)

Judas,
. I don’t think you’re getting what I’m saying, and what you quote from Paul was of course his understanding. I realize a whole lot of people take things the way that you do, and from this verse, etc, but I don’t understand why it is offensive somehow to you that others have another understanding of the matter. It is not easy to express such a thing in earthly terms and is simpler, I suppose, just to say Jesus is God and leave it at that, but then you get into trying to resolve the other issues of the Trinity, God being greater than Jesus, that “These aren’t My words…” and all the rest. We’ve been over all that enough times.

. As it happens, the “I am the Way…” appears in many Scriptures. You might want to give this a quick read: miraclescenter.us/jesuskrishnabuddha.htm

. Also, from the Writings of the Bab, p 45:

. “This is the Way of God for all the inhabitants of earth and heaven and all that lieth betwixt them. No God is there but Me, the Almighty, the Inaccessible, the Most Exalted.”

. also, as Baha’u’llah elaborates:

. “Every one of them is the Way of God that connecteth this world with the realms above, and the Standard of His Truth unto every one in the kingdoms of earth and heaven.”

bahaullah.com/bahaullah-writings-god-part1.html

. Judas, I fully understand the “fixed” position that you have, or perhaps the proper word is exclusive in your understanding that Jesus, the individual, is the only One Who can say this, but from the Baha’i position, the “One” Who is saying this, Who calls Himself “The Way” is pre-existent and appears from age to age. It is this eternal One Whom we regard to express Himself thusly and appear in human form to us.

. The difficulty then, is for those who accept His voice from the view of a single “human” appearance is that they limit God to their own conception of how He can or cannot appear, whereas “He doeth as He willeth” is always left up to God. To “hear His voice” is something that requires open ears, an open heart, and an open mind. By that I do not mean to say you are close minded, so don’t take it that way please. For what I am saying is that all of our God-given faculties must be turned on and attuned to listen for the sound of His voice.

. The Jews “missed His voice” 2000 years ago, and killed He from Whose Voice God came to man, and His followers. In this day there are people who claim to have again heard the voice of God and are being killed. Indeed, this happens every time a Messenger of God comes. Historically, this has never varied. Those who claim to be the sole possessors of religious authority and “right interpretation” are always offended at the appearance of the next Manifestation of God.

. Its a real test… Men are tried in the fire of these tests. It brings out the best and the worst in human potential. I think this is why it is called The Day of Judgement!
.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Dear friend Judas. A baby is not introduced to a steak and shrimps meal with vodka to wash it down with the moment it is born. It “gradually” develops a capacity to take in more and more complex foods…as it evolves and develops…
So it is with spiritual foods. The manna from heaven is given in simple to digest quantities initially. For some populations this manna says one thing, for others it says another. There was no internet at that time for the message of God to be a universal one.
The message was catered to “advance” the population “gradually” towards the spiritual “steak sandwich”.
When a baby is in the womb, it has a very basic consciousness. It probably has no idea that a mother even exists. It has a plentiful food supply given to it by the placenta and once in a while it may hear some noises and some music, not knowing that there is a whole world out there that will take it’s consciousness into a sort of “beautific vision” when compared to its consciousness in the womb.
Consciousness and spiritual development and the knowledge of God are all related in this sense. This is a reality of life. Things develop “gradually”

I have no problem with development, just as long as it doesn’t contradict Scripture.

Now, is God locked out of creation?

Imagine a sculptor grabbing a piece of clay with a plan to develop something beautiful with it within 10 years.
Every day it applies a stroke here, a chisel there, a smoothing overe here and there, some water, some air, etc etc
Does the sculptor need to actually become a piece of clay in order for his/her duration to develop and materialise?
No…

In Jesus’ case, yes. Only God incarnate could come
down and give his life so that we may live forever. My
question has not been answered: “Is God locked out
of creation?” I’ll answer your answer for you: “Yes.”

He is also at the same time not locked out of his creation, while at the same time, the clay will never become the sculptor.

I’ll give it another go: In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.

• (John 1:1)

He was in the world, and the
world was made by him, and
the world knew him not.

• (John 1:10)

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among
us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of
the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and
truth.

• (John 1:14)

For the law was given by Moses; grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

• (John 1:13)

Why would God want to become the clay of His creation?

He didn’t want to, that’s the point. Go back to Philippians 2, and you might
just learn about the mind of he who was in the Form of God.

In fact, He doesn’t even need to create the Universe, He can create a Jesus or a Baha’u’llah “in the form of God” and “as God” to do that for Him.

No, one of the things which God (technically) can’t do is create other ontological gods
as God is. You misunderstand the “form of God.” There is no god except the God, nei-
ther before, currently, or after, never and forever. You’re right though, God didn’t need to
create anything, rather Creation was the act of God’s love.

And here we are, me, you and the Apostles saying that God is this and God is that.
How blasphemous and arrogant we are as Gods milk-fed babies…

What ???
Well we are fallen creatures, not babies or children of God by default. . . ?
Kinda lost
me there…

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

…but I don’t understand why it is offensive somehow to you that others have another understanding of the matter…

Oh no, no offense, I just want you to be born again and receive the real Good News.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Quite simply, the “Good News” is that God became One of us for ALL of us.

God knows the “details”, I don’t and I don’t need to know the details.

God’s Plan, which God has had since before creation, will come to Fruition.

 

[meltzerboy]

Perhaps I shouldn’t target Baha’u’llah, but it should be the responsibility of the Baha’i.

Anyway, the Gospels (written by the Apostles) show how Jesus fulfilled many of the prophecies
which spoke of him from times of old. Jesus gave sight to the blind, speech to the mute, made
the deaf hear and lame walk, why he even raised the dead, just as the Scriptures claimed. God
gave us prophets so that we can test all things and Jesus passed the test.

But Moses in Deuteronomy specifically warned against those who perform miracles and that this is not the basis of either divinity or the Messiah.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

But Moses in Deuteronomy specifically warned against those who perform miracles and that this is not the basis of either divinity or the Messiah.

Part right, but the passage, assuming we’re talking about the same thing, is warning
the people about following other gods, for if the so-called prophet or messiah comes,
performs some cool stuff and predicts events accurately, then says: “Let us go after
other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them,” Thou shalt not hear
the words of that prophet or dreamer: for the Lord your God trieth you, that it may
appear whether you love him with all your heart, and with all your soul, or not.

Jesus did not come preaching a different god, but was fulfilling all the prophecies in the
name of the same God. What do you expect of the Messiah? For him NOT to fulfill any
thing the prophets of old spoke of him to do? That didn’t seem to work out very well with
Simon bar Kokhba.

Revisiting now “he even raised the dead”: Even Jewish historian Flavius Josephus wrote
of Jesus as the Messiah, not sure if he saw him as God though. He also took seriously
one interesting event: Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher
of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the]
Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him
at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten
thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
– Flavius Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews, Book 18, Chapter 3, 3

 

[Servant19]

I have no problem with development, just as long as it doesn’t contradict Scripture.

No, it needs to be said that the Words of Jesus cannot contradict the Words of Baha’u’llah.

When interpretations come into it, contradictions develop.
It is for us, as daler has already pointed out, to use the God-given faculties that we have (all of them) to discern the Truth from man-made falsities, even the Apostles.
The Apostles of Baha’u’llah and the Bab were never given the go ahead and interpret authoritatively ANYTHING that Baha’u’llah and the Bab revealed, and they were too invested with the power of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit when it descends upon mere humans does not enable infallibility. Humans using the power of the Holy Spirit can give their understanding and it may or may not shape the understanding of others. ANYONE can be empowered by the Holy Spirit

1 Corinthians 6:19
"Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?.."

You see, all people are capable of having the Holy Spirit descend on them, but this does not mean that the words the speak are the authentic Word of God, as if it were Jesus Himself speaking…

In Jesus’ case, yes. Only God incarnate could come
down and give his life so that we may live forever. My
question has not been answered: “Is God locked out
of creation?” I’ll answer your answer for you: “Yes.”

Well, let me ask you this question.

If God incarnated Himself to appear before us on earth, was heaven during that time without God?
If so, what happens when God “removes” Himself from His creation? Heaven is His creation too isn’t it?

 

[Servant19]

I’ll give it another go:

Yes, go for it brother…

In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.

• (John 1:1)

Lets really analyse this Judas, shall we?

How can something (the Word) be WITH God, while at the same time BE God?

I’ll attempt an answer
*
“and the Word was with God”*
- this is an ontological statement. The reality is that the Word IS WITH God. That is an absolute Truth, agreed upon by all Abrahamic religions…

“and the Word was God.”
- this is an epistomological statement intended for the puny and petty human mind. While the Word is not “actually” God, because it is “with” God, for human beings who cannot fathom anything beyond the Word, it is a perfectly sound theological statement to say that the “Word is God”, but this is not the ontological Truth, because we actually know from the previous statement that actually the Truth is that “the Word is with God”

He was in the world,

Yes the Word which was “with” God came onto the earth in the form of Jesus, and to all intents and purposes, to the petty, and puny human mind, He was God, but we know that this is not ontologically true beacuse “the Word is with God”

and the
world was made by him, and
the world knew him not.

• (John 1:10)

Yes, the Word was what made the the world. The Word was only temporarily manifested on earth through Jesus. The Word is beyond earthly temporaries, it is eternal. It is the Word that made the world, not Jesus.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among
us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of
the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and
truth.

• (John 1:14)

So, here we get to the nitty gritty.

The Word was made flesh. Is the flesh temporary or everlasting? Temporary
Is the Word temporary or everlasting? Everlasting.

It is therefore clear here that the Word became flesh is a reference to the Word being “with God” not “is God” for the Word is ontologically “with God” not ontologically “is God”, for the Word cannot be with God and be God at the same time…

He didn’t want to, that’s the point. Go back to Philippians 2, and you might
just learn about the mind of he who was in the Form of God.

Yes, Jesus humbled Himself, no-one denies His humility.
But lets talk about original sin again and how it reflects God’s injustice. If Jesus had to humble Himself so I can be saved from the wrath of original sin…well…

No, one of the things which God (technically) can’t do is create other ontological gods
as God is.

Yes, but what God does create it seems, is epistemological Gods. Remember that bit about development and the “gradual” unfolding of God’s nature to man?

You misunderstand the “form of God.” There is no god except the God, nei-
ther before, currently, or after, never and forever.

Well, actually it seems there is. Remember our long dialogue about “Greater does not mean equal”?

The Father is “greater” than the Son. The Father “sent” the Son…the Father is NOT “equal” to the Son, so there is something “beyond” the Son, and since nothing has been revealed about the nature of the Father up until the Revelation of Baha’u’llah one can rationally extrapolate that there is a Being “greater” than the Father, if we can even call Him a “Being”…

You’re right though, God didn’t need to
create anything, rather Creation was the act of God’s love.

On this, I am glad we agree, dear friend

What ???
Well we are fallen creatures, not babies or children of God by default. . . ?

Kinda lost
me there…

So lets assume we are “fallen creatures” …even the Apostles are fallen right? How can they possibly make a conclusion that Jesus is God, even though so many of their conversations were recorded and written down, yet not once was the words “I am God” recorded or written?

.

 

[meltzerboy]

Part right, but the passage, assuming we’re talking about the same thing, is warning
the people about following other gods, for if the so-called prophet or messiah comes,
performs some cool stuff and predicts events accurately, then says: “Let us go after
other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them,” Thou shalt not hear
the words of that prophet or dreamer: for the Lord your God trieth you, that it may
appear whether you love him with all your heart, and with all your soul, or not.

Jesus did not come preaching a different god, but was fulfilling all the prophecies in the
name of the same God. What do you expect of the Messiah? For him NOT to fulfill any
thing the prophets of old spoke of him to do? That didn’t seem to work out very well with
Simon bar Kokhba.

Revisiting now “he even raised the dead”: Even Jewish historian Flavius Josephus wrote
of Jesus as the Messiah, not sure if he saw him as God though. He also took seriously
one interesting event: Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher
of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the]
Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him
at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten
thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
– Flavius Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews, Book 18, Chapter 3, 3

What is your understanding of the specific prophecies that must be fulfilled by the Messiah according to the Hebrew Bible prophets?

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

No, it needs to be said that the Words of Jesus cannot contradict the Words of Baha’u’llah.

How is that supposed to work? Jesus spoke first, we all
accept him as true, so if a prophet comes along saying
something to the contrary, then he is false.

When interpretations come into it, contradictions develop.
It is for us, as daler has already pointed out, to use the God-given faculties that we have (all of them) to discern the Truth from man-made falsities, even the Apostles.
The Apostles of Baha’u’llah and the Bab were never given the go ahead and interpret authoritatively ANYTHING that Baha’u’llah and the Bab revealed, and they were too invested with the power of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit when it descends upon mere humans does not enable infallibility. Humans using the power of the Holy Spirit can give their understanding and it may or may not shape the understanding of others. ANYONE can be empowered by the Holy Spirit

1 Corinthians 6:19
"Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?.."

You see, all people are capable of having the Holy Spirit descend on them, but this does not mean that the words the speak are the authentic Word of God, as if it were Jesus Himself speaking…

Then the Holy Spirit abandoned the world really soon after Christ ascended into Heaven, is what you’re saying. Yes we can all be filled
with the Holy Spirit, have the Holy Spirit descend on us, but Jesus guided a Church, Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would come, Holy
Spirit would teach us all things, then came the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. From then on the Holy Spirit has been guiding the Church
(doctrinally) throughout the centuries.

Well, let me ask you this question.

If God incarnated Himself to appear before us on earth, was heaven during that time without God?
If so, what happens when God “removes” Himself from His creation? Heaven is His creation too isn’t it?

You just crash landed in the mysterious land of the Trinity. The Father resides in Heaven,
while Jesus can visit us in bodily form in single locations, and the Holy Spirit fills the en-
tire universe and all creation.
Thank also back to Solomon’s Temple. God did inhabit that Temple, that finite building,
like the smoke of incense he filled the Temple. God was contained wholly in a building
of four walls yet at the same time is everywhere.

And when I say “creation”, I’m referring to the physical universe,
though yes Heaven is a part of God’s whole creation also.

 

[Servant19]

Now, now, you skipped right over the first bit; the New Covenant asks us to follow who? Jesus; He is the ONLY one that purchased us, to follow another gospel is to spit in His face. Now, lets test the spirits;

Do you confess and testify that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God? Do you testify that He is Divine, being truly God as well as truly man? Do you testify that He came in a bodily incarnation, lived a perfect life, was crucified and physically rose 3 days later?

If you cannot testify to those things, then you are not teaching truth, for that is the first hurdle to pass.

Hi Kliska.

I must say I laughed out loud when you wrote “spit in His face”! There’s no need for me to go there, its not a war here. Theres no need to lose our souls for the sake of winning an argument

For me this is not an argument, it is a dialogue and exploration

Now, can you please tell me why I need to “confess and testify that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God? Do you testify that He is Divine, being truly God as well as truly man? Do you testify that He came in a bodily incarnation, lived a perfect life, was crucified and physically rose 3 days later?”?

When God is Represented on earth by another true Prophet, why would He need to confess and testify to things that Jesus never said? To appease your quest for exclusivity?

Well, I will tell you now, good is all inclusive, not exclusive. Those that follow man-made falsities to exclude themselves as the “elite” of the world are those that are “not” of God…

.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

“and the Word was with God”
- this is an ontological statement. The reality is that the Word IS WITH God. That is an absolute Truth, agreed upon by all Abrahamic religions…

“and the Word was God.”
- this is an epistomological statement intended for the puny and petty human mind. While the Word is not “actually” God, because it is “with” God, for human beings who cannot fathom anything beyond the Word, it is a perfectly sound theological statement to say that the “Word is God”, but this is not the ontological Truth, because we actually know from the previous statement that actually the Truth is that “the Word is with God”

You say that John 1:1 was written for our understanding and I agree. Of course I would
then refer to the Greek scholars who say that we are to understand that the Word was
with God (before time, in time, and always) and that the Word was the same being as
God. People such as Mormons, Jehovah’s Witness, and Oneness Pentecostalists al-
ways fail, because John was not written in English, it was written in Greek, a very pre-
cise and much more expressive language. No other prophet (before the Bab) spoke as
being with the Father before the world existed, but Jesus did in John 17:5.

Yes the Word which was “with” God came onto the earth in the form of Jesus, and to all intents and purposes, to the petty, and puny human mind, He was God, but we know that this is not ontologically true beacuse “the Word is with God”

Again: Trinity, One Being, Three Persons, One God, Father Son Holy Spirit, One God.
Now in the world of scholarship, When John refers to “Ton Theon”, consistently it has
been used in reference to the Father. To the Word, however, the descriptive word used
is “theos” not “Ton Theon”, which can be used to say Jesus is “a god”, BUT the Bible
keeps saying that there is only One God, so it is perfectly valid in Greek to use “theos”
as a qualitative word, describing the actually nature of the subject. Thus the Word was
(eternally) with The God and the Word was DEITY, the same as The God (Ton Theon)
in BEING, but are obviously distinct persons.

The Word was made flesh. Is the flesh temporary or everlasting? Temporary
Is the Word temporary or everlasting? Everlasting.

Yes, but flesh does not determine a person, so the Word is a Person, who came
in the flesh and dwelt a while amongst us.

Well, actually it seems there is. Remember our long dialogue about “Greater does not mean equal”?

The Father is “greater” than the Son. The Father “sent” the Son…the Father is NOT “equal” to the Son, so there is something “beyond” the Son, and since nothing has been revealed about the nature of the Father up until the Revelation of Baha’u’llah one can rationally extrapolate that there is a Being “greater” than the Father, if we can even call Him a “Being”…

IN OFFICE!
The Father is greater than the Son in office. Jesus also said that the Apostles are go-
ing to do greater work than he, does that make them greater than he? Of course not.
You also need to study up on the difference between Being and Person, they are not
the same. Being is WHAT and Person is WHO (just a sample, look up more). God is
One What & Three Whos.

So lets assume we are “fallen creatures” …even the Apostles are fallen right? How can they possibly make a conclusion that Jesus is God, even though so many of their conversations were recorded and written down, yet not once was the words “I am God” recorded or written?

Oy, I recommend you to this page, not too much text:
carm.org/religious-movements/islam/did-jesus-ever-say-exact-words-i-am-god

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Try this link:
accordingtothescriptures.org/prophecy/353prophecies.html
351 Prophecies Fulfilled in Jesus Christ

 

[Servant19]

How is that supposed to work? Jesus spoke first, we all
accept him as true, so if a prophet comes along saying
something to the contrary, then he is false.

Judas, there are two points to raise here:

1. Show me where the things that Baha’u’llah said contradict the things that Jesus said.
2. Are you 100% certain of the ABSOLUTE accuracy of the recorded words of Jesus in the Gospels?

Then the Holy Spirit abandoned the world really soon after Christ ascended into Heaven, is what you’re saying.

Where did I say that?
Judas, what IS the Holy Spirit?
Do you know? Please don’t reiterate any Trinitarian statements …

Yes we can all be filled
with the Holy Spirit, have the Holy Spirit descend on us, but Jesus guided a Church, Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would come, Holy
Spirit would teach us all things, then came the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.

Can you show me which passage you are referring to here please, especially in saying that the Holy Spirit will teach us all things?

You just crash landed in the mysterious land of the Trinity.

My friend, when every question of intellect is responded with “this is a mystery” it spells a crash landing of a superstitious man-made doctrine…Truth is rational, superstition mocks the intellect…superstitions are mysteries.

The Father resides in Heaven,
while Jesus can visit us in bodily form in single locations, and the Holy Spirit fills the en-
tire universe and all creation.
Thank also back to Solomon’s Temple. God did inhabit that Temple, that finite building,
like the smoke of incense he filled the Temple. God was contained wholly in a building
of four walls yet at the same time is everywhere.

And when I say “creation”, I’m referring to the physical universe,
though yes Heaven is a part of God’s whole creation also.

My friend, when you cannot grasp the “spiritual significance” of certain narratives, a superstitious belief system starts to envelope your whole being…

 

[Servant19]

You say that John 1:1 was written for our understanding and I agree. Of course I would
then refer to the Greek scholars who say that we are to understand that the Word was
with God (before time, in time, and always) and that the Word was the same being as
God. People such as Mormons, Jehovah’s Witness, and Oneness Pentecostalists al-
ways fail, because John was not written in English, it was written in Greek, a very pre-
cise and much more expressive language. No other prophet (before the Bab) spoke as
being with the Father before the world existed, but Jesus did in John 17:5.

Again: Trinity, One Being, Three Persons, One God, Father Son Holy Spirit, One God.
Now in the world of scholarship, When John refers to “Ton Theon”, consistently it has
been used in reference to the Father. To the Word, however, the descriptive word used
is “theos” not “Ton Theon”, which can be used to say Jesus is “a god”, BUT the Bible
keeps saying that there is only One God, so it is perfectly valid in Greek to use “theos”
as a qualitative word, describing the actually nature of the subject. Thus the Word was
(eternally) with The God and the Word was DEITY, the same as The God (Ton Theon)
in BEING, but are obviously distinct persons.

Again, we have here, Judas, a situation of “with” does not equate to “is” (remember “greater” does not mean “equal”?)

When you are “with” something, you are not “actually” that something…its simple intellect. Intellect is a God-given faculty, we should praise Him for it and use it. The intellect developed language so that we can express our intellect and receive knowledge therefrom…

Yes, but flesh does not determine a person, so the Word is a Person, who came
in the flesh and dwelt a while amongst us.

Yes, the Word became a Person, but it was never God, it was “with” God

IN OFFICE!

Come on Judas, what does that mean, friend??
We are creating meanings out of thin air for the sake of this elitist attitude of one-upmanship.

“Office” where does Jesus say the Father occupies a greater office than Him???

The Father is greater than the Son in office. Jesus also said that the Apostles are go-
ing to do greater work than he, does that make them greater than he?

Nope, greater works means that the “teachings” of the Messenger of God are “LIVED”, they are the embodiment of the Teachings as humanity enables the seed of God to bear fruit!

Jesus provided the seed, the Apostles nurtured and tended that seed and through their deeds and works allowed the seed to become a tree and bear fruit.

Jesus is greater because without the seed, there is no fruit. But teh Apostles worked DARNED HARD to nurture that seed, cultivate it and water it for it to bear fruit. Does not make them Jesus. Jesus was the SOURCE.

You also need to study up on the difference between Being and Person, they are not
the same. Being is WHAT and Person is WHO (just a sample, look up more). God is
One What & Three Whos.

Do you even know what it really means Judas?

Oy,

whats with the “oys” LOL!!

I recommend you to this page, not too much text:
carm.org/religious-movements/islam/did-jesus-ever-say-exact-words-i-am-god

I read it and yes, Jesus didn’t say He was a man, but that was visibly obvious. He didn’t say He was a Prophet, but He prophecied, so again, visibly obvious.

He DID SAY however that the Father was greater than Him. Is there anything greater than God? Yes, obviously the Father is greater than God…so maybe the God is not so much of a God after all. I wonder what the Father said about Himself?

"When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee I am moved to proclaim to all created things 'verily I am God!’; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!" - Baha’u’llah

.

 

[kingston1]

Hi Judas, you and I seem to enjoy our conversations, and I must say I do like your style brother
I think my presence here may make you all better apologists because I ask the questions that my heart needs to have answered in order to align Christianity with Christ (from my perspective)
If, in dying, Christ destroyed death, why do we still die?
If, in rising, Christ restored eternal life, why do Jews that eternal life was already given prior to Jesus?
.

Here’s a good one too to follow along with your inquiries. If Jesus died once and for all for us then why are we still here? Why didn’t this reality stop when Jesus died on the cross? What is we are supposed to be doing? Why didn’t He take us with Him?

It doesn’t seem to make sense at first blush to say “Jesus died for our sins and saved us from death” then why do we die?

It does seem confusing but I do believe there is a good reason why it happened the way it did and it doesn’t have to make sense to us all.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

1. Show me where the things that Baha’u’llah said contradict the things that Jesus said.

Well there I am limited, sorry. Nevertheless, Baha’u’llah can’t contradict ANY
previous prophet, such as Moses. Remember the Isaac vs Ishmael issue(?):

Well first we have Moses bringing us the Torah, Genesis being
the first book, which tells us something God said to Abraham:

He said to him: Take thy only begotten son Isaac, whom thou lovest,
and go into the land of vision: and there thou shalt offer him for a hol-
ocaust upon one of the mountains which I will show thee.

• (Genesis 22:2)
  This is attested to also in the New Testament, through the
  words of Paul, who was instructed by Jesus. Paul writes to us:By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered Isaac: and he that had
  received the promises, offered up his only begotten son;
• (Hebrew 11:17)
  Words of Baha’u’llah : “That which thou hast heard concerning Abraham, the Friend of the All-
  -Merciful, is the truth, and no doubt is there about it. The Voice of God
  commanded Him to offer up Ishmael as a sacrifice, so that His stead-
  fastness in the Faith of God and His detachment from all else but Him
  may be demonstrated unto men…"
• (Bahá’u’lláh: “Gleanings”, pp.75-76)
  Oh, but that’s okay, because the Baha’i teach:“As to the question raised by…in connection with Bahá’u’lláh’s statement in the ‘Gleanings’ concerning the sacrifice of Ishmael; although this statement does not agree with that made in the Bible, Genesis 22:9, the friends should unhesitatingly, and for reasons that are only too obvious, give precedence to the saying of Bahá’u’lláh, which, it should be pointed out, is fully corroborated by the Qur’an which book is far more authentic than the Bible, including both the New and Old Testaments. The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur’an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá’u’lláh.”
  (From a letter dated July 28, 1936 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States and Canada)

​

We can also hold Baha’i doctrine in contradiction to the words of Jesus:"Was Christ within god, or God within Christ (John 14:10-11)? No in the name of God. "

– (Abdul Baha Questions, pg. 97)

1. Are you 100% certain of the ABSOLUTE accuracy of the recorded words of Jesus in the Gospels?

Paul wrote that all Scripture (Old Testament + writings of the Apostles) are
“God-Breathed” (inspired of God), and the Gospels we have are the earliest
of all gospels, thus are ruled as most trustworthy, more so than the Qur’an,
contrary to Baha’u’llah’s opinion.

Where did I say that?
Judas, what IS the Holy Spirit?
Do you know? Please don’t reiterate any Trinitarian statements …

Perhaps that was a bit harsh (even inaccurate). “WHAT the Holy Spirit is” is God.
“WHO the Holy Spirit is” is a person (having own mind, emotion, intellect, will, etc),
who is to draw our attention to the Son who mediates between us and the Father.
The Holy Spirit comes to inspire Scripture, inspires interpretation of Scripture, so
we can’t have the same Holy Spirit but different beliefs, and so much more. Now
if Jesus was/is not God, EXACTLY the same as God, then the Holy Spirit hasn’t
an interest in us, which is definitely not the case, but rather he cares and has in-
deed been guiding the Church this whole time.

Can you show me which passage you are referring to here please, especially in saying that the Holy Spirit will teach us all things?

Jesus says:But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in
my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of every-
thing I have said to you.
– (John 14:26)

My friend, when every question of intellect is responded with “this is a mystery” it spells a crash landing of a superstitious man-made doctrine…Truth is rational, superstition mocks the intellect…superstitions are mysteries.

The Trinity is not a superstition. Do you suggest that God is something we can put un-
der a microscope and know everything about? There is the Mystery of God, we can on-
ly go with what the text says and NOT into what we can fully comprehend. If the Bible
says that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, are distinct
persons clearly, yet there is only One God, we have no other conclusion to go to than
a tri-personal God. We can’t fully understand that, but was it not you who described
the human mind as punny, limited, and so forth?

My friend, when you cannot grasp the “spiritual significance” of certain narratives, a superstitious belief system starts to envelope your whole being…

No, we understand what the text says, we can’t fully fathom it otherwise either God
isn’t so infinite or we are the ones who are as infinite as God. That doesn’t work for
me, sorry. I don’t worship a God that I can fully comprehend.
When people early on questioned the Deity of Jesus, did the Holy Spirit take a nap?
Nope, he got right to work and made sure that the Church was on the right course.
When people questioned then the humanity of Jesus, did the Holy Spirit get lazy?
No, he made sure he inspired bishops to argue against such heresy. How about
that time when one man named Arius preached around that “Once the Son of
God was not”? that Jesus was a created god? How did the Holy Spirit react?
Again, he guided the Church to fight against that false doctrine.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Again, we have here, Judas, a situation of “with” does not equate to “is” (remember “greater” does not mean “equal”?)

When you are “with” something, you are not “actually” that something…its simple intellect. Intellect is a God-given faculty, we should praise Him for it and use it. The intellect developed language so that we can express our intellect and receive knowledge therefrom…

“Greater” how? You can’t just come up with quick conclusions like that. The
Word is God, the Bible says. Thomas calls Jesus God, so does Paul, Peter,
James, John, Jude, oy vey do you want to see them singing it while jumping
rope or something? So if the Father is “greater” than Jesus, but both are in-
fact the same God, then it must be greater in roles played in the salvation of
mankind.

Yes, the Word became a Person, but it was never God, it was “with” God

Okay, you accept John1:1a, John1:1b, but refuse to acknowledge John1:1c. When
confronted by it even, you have to come up with such depressing answers, depres-
sing because the Bible defined John1:1 before you did.

Come on Judas, what does that mean, friend??
We are creating meanings out of thin air for the sake of this elitist attitude of one-upmanship.

“Office” where does Jesus say the Father occupies a greater office than Him???

Don’t get the elitist part, but it’s simply. I and other Christians don’t take one verse
and isolated it from the entirety of the Bible. I let the Bible define what that means.

Do you even know what it really means Judas?
Yes, I do. Being and Person are, believe it or not, two different categories of existence.
I am a single human Being, and I am a single Person named here Judas.
God is a single Divine Being, but God is also THREE Persons that share in the One Being that is God.
Can we fully comprehend what that means? No, but it’s
an easy enough to grasp concept for us to believe in.
Servant19;11508939:

whats with the “oys” LOL!!

Have I been doing it that much?

He DID SAY however that the Father was greater than Him. Is there anything greater than God? Yes, obviously the Father is greater than God…so maybe the God is not so much of a God after all. I wonder what the Father said about Himself?

Is there anything greater than God? No, but Jesus is God also. The Father and the
Son are in the same Being of God, but that does not mean one takes a greater or
lesser role in the salvation of Man. You’re problem is that you are reading into the
word “greater” and are thus swearing that it can’t possibly mean anything other
than “Greater in Might, Power, Majesty, Glory, Divinity, and the like.”
False Equivocation is what you’re giving me here.